Precision ammo on a progressive press.

[Duffy1298]

I reload Precision ammo (at least I think precision), using my Dillon RL550b. I hand measure every powder charge, just using the press to resize, prime, and seat my bullets. I am accomplishing 1/2 ish moa groups pretty much every time, but, I am wondering if I used a single stage press, would I have slightly more precision ammo, and would those groups shrink? Or does it even matter?

 

[YAOG]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Duffy1298</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I reload Precision ammo (at least I think precision), using my Dillon RL550b. I hand measure every powder charge, just using the press to resize, prime, and seat my bullets. I am accomplishing 1/2 ish moa groups pretty much every time, but, I am wondering if I used a single stage press, would I have slightly more precision ammo, and would those groups shrink? Or does it even matter? </div></div>

As do many many nationally competitive shooters. Many folks loading high precision rounds on a Dillon 550 scale NOT throw their powder charges though many people manage to make the Dillon powder measure work well too. But this only really applies to ball powders as the extruded stuff is not usually real good with the Dillon powder bar, usually +/- 0.1 grain. Some folks get closer more consistently even with stick powders by modifying their powder bars.

Depending on the round 1/2 MOA can be pretty good at 100 yards for a factory rifle. Some factory rifles shoot much better with finished rounds that are better suited to them. Chances are with minor changes to your press and changing to a single case in the press at a time your press will be capable of producing ammunition that measures as well or better than ANY single stage press on the market.

Of course depending on how well you can shoot and how consistently you do it may not make any difference at all.

HTH!

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

"I am wondering if I used a single stage press, would I have slightly more precision ammo, and would those groups shrink?"

I prefer single stage presses but I doubt you'd see any significant change using one.

 

[Mr_Brass]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

I crank out a fgmm clone (168gr, 308 and a tap (75gr 223) clone on my super 1050 all day long.

ETA the Dillon powder measures work amazing on any ball powder. I use h335 for the above loads

 

[1911wrench]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

Concentricity certainly plays a role in accuracy.

No one will argue single stage will load more accurate ammunition, just how much more and is it worth it depends on distance really.

 

[pmclaine]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911wrench</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Concentricity certainly plays a role in accuracy.

No one will argue single stage will load more accurate ammunition, just how much more and is it worth it depends on distance really. </div></div>

Concerning this I have read, never experienced or talked with someone that does it, that the trick is to seat, rotate the cartridge a third, reseat, rotate 1/3, reseat.

I'm assuming this only works when loading one cartridge at a time using the press like a turret/progressive hybrid.

I load on a S1050 I wish I had the skills to take advantage of that level of precision.

 

[Duffy1298]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Duffy1298</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I reload Precision ammo (at least I think precision), using my Dillon RL550b. I hand measure every powder charge, just using the press to resize, prime, and seat my bullets. I am accomplishing 1/2 ish moa groups pretty much every time, but, I am wondering if I used a single stage press, would I have slightly more precision ammo, and would those groups shrink? Or does it even matter? </div></div>

As do many many nationally competitive shooters. Most folks loading precision rounds on a Dillon 550 scale NOT throw their powder charges though many people manage to make the Dillon powder measure work well too. But this only applies to ball powders as the extruded stuff is not real good with the Dillon powder bar, usually +/- 0.1 grain.

Depending on the round 1/2 MOA can be pretty good at 100 yards for a factory rifle. Chances are with minor changes to your press and changing to a single case in the press at a time your press will be capable of producing ammunition that measures as well or better than ANY single stage press on the market.

Of course depending on how well you can shoot and how consistently you do it may not make any difference at all.

HTH!

</div></div>
It is by no means a factory rifle, thats why i was wondering if i should be concerned.

 

[1lnbrdg]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

I know several highly-competitive Palma shooters that load on a Dillon, semi-progressivly.

The most important question is whether you can be confidant in your reloads on which-ever setup.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

I use the RL550b for all my ammo, weigh charges for bolt guns, and throw them for semi's. I have used stick powder (Varget) with the Dillon measure without weight checking for my AR.

I personally believe that if the load matches the accuracy node, the barrel can tolerate the resulting charge weight variances. The accuracy burden depends on the success of the load development. The more effectively the load centers on the node, the less sensitive it should be to the results of basic and customary handloading tolerances.

My Stag 6 shoots right in the middle of the pack of similar varmint weight AR's at matches. I don't know what they are using for ammo, but mine shoots right along with theirs.

I have doubts about how the resulting concentricity tolerances would have any negative accuracy effects with SAAMI chambers.

My .30BR chamber was cut as an no-turn experiment, and I make no efforts to check or adjust concentricity; loading with a basic RCBS Group B 2-die F/L set. I don't own a concentricity guage. Cases were initally prep'd using turned neck Lapua brass, and are loaded on the RL550b with no special handling beyond weighing the charges of IMR-4198.

The rifle's competitive, and is responding to my own learning curve as I learn the rifle's preferred shooting technique. It's very good, and I'm getting better as time advances and I tweak the load in small stages.

I'm using the ensemble as a pragmatic test to see how much accuracy can be wrung out of a good basic system without resorting to BR handloading techniques. So far, not too shabby.

Greg

 

[YAOG]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.


Greg,

IMO the Dillon 550 is the best bang for the buck out there. It is not what you pay so much as what you don't pay for over time. I've owned a Dillon for many years and the people at Dillon have always been amazing. I bought a Dillon press before the 550 was released from the factory based on a G&A ad. I used it for a while and when the 550 came out I called and asked about ordering a 550. Dillon took my old Dillon progressive in trade and for a very small upgrade charge they shipped me the then brand new 550 model press with all the bells and whistles. IMO that is how to treat a customer and have them come back. I have had small bits fail (usually my fault) or get misplaced over the 30 some odd years I've owned that 550 and they have always sent them to me for little to no money! Several years ago I had neglected the 550 for so long is was rusted and did not operate smoothly any longer. I called and asked Dillon about having them refurb my 550 press and replace anything they thought needed to be replaced. They said send it in and they would call me back with an estimate. For $100 I got the 550 press cleaned and rebuilt, upgraded to a full 550B press and two additional caliber kits shipped to my house. Again Dillon provided me with amazing customer service and support. If I had the room I would buy another 550 to leave setup for to load 5.56 rounds. Needless to say in my opinion Dillon takes very good care of their customers.

With respect to accuracy nodes I agree slight variations in powder charges make little practical difference to POI even on paper.

I'm pretty much convinced based on experience that for factory chambers within the middle of SAAMI spec there is not a lot to be gained with a TIR numbers lower than 0.003" at least in .308Win. Custom chambers are a different animal though and they seem to respond to better TIR numbers if you can shoot it.

The concentricity problem is with no turn brass. In my experience to get TIR numbers low enough (not 0.000") to not lead to some inconsistency issues in a factory chamber you need to take some simple precautions to stay under that 0.003" TIR number. With the right stuff and setup using no turn brass and producing TIR of 0.003" or less take no additoinal work. Neck turning or much smaller TIR number is getting dangerously close to my too much like work limit.

AFAIK turned neck brass is one of the cornerstones of BR handloading. Starting with turned neck brass pretty much takes care of most concentriciy issues as you have pretty much eliminated the core cause of concentricity error. All you really have to do at this point is float some decent dies in the press and your TIR numbers will inherently fall within a very low range.

 

[YAOG]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911wrench</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Concentricity certainly plays a role in accuracy.

No one will argue single stage will load more accurate ammunition, just how much more and is it worth it depends on distance really. </div></div>


Read carefully. I have already made the point, see my post above. A well setup Dillon 550 press can produce finished rounds that measure as well or better than any available mass produced single stage press.

 

[YAOG]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Duffy1298</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I reload Precision ammo (at least I think precision), using my Dillon RL550b. I hand measure every powder charge, just using the press to resize, prime, and seat my bullets. I am accomplishing 1/2 ish moa groups pretty much every time, but, I am wondering if I used a single stage press, would I have slightly more precision ammo, and would those groups shrink? Or does it even matter? </div></div>

Is this level of precision good enough for your use? If so it is "good enough." If not you may get some improvement by modifying your press slightly.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

I'm a progressive loader....make that a CONSERVATIVE that loads ammo on a progressive press!

I have a 550, 650 and Hornady LnL AP.

The 650 and AP are head and shoulders better than the 550. The 650 has some things about it better than the AP, but the AP is better than the 650 in other ways.

Make no mistake, fantastic precision rifle ammo can readily be made on a progressive. I highly recommend it. With my charge master and 650, I can load about 120 rounds/hour.

 

[lachoneus]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use the RL550b for all my ammo, weigh charges for bolt guns, and throw them for semi's.</div></div>

I also use a 550B for all my ammo. A close friend uses a single stage and is very careful about all aspects of hand loading, but neither of us have been able to see a consistent, measurable difference between his ammo and mine when shot in the same Palma rifle.

If you think your ammo is holding you back, a simple solution is to find someone with the single stage press, and use it to load a few rounds and then test them against your current ammo.

 

[YAOG]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a progressive loader....make that a CONSERVATIVE that loads ammo on a progressive press!

I have a 550, 650 and Hornady LnL AP.

The 650 and AP are head and shoulders better than the 550. The 650 has some things about it better than the AP, but the AP is better than the 650 in other ways.

Make no mistake, fantastic precision rifle ammo can readily be made on a progressive. I highly recommend it. With my charge master and 650, I can load about 120 rounds/hour. </div></div>

If the ammunition made on your Dillon 550 measures and/or shoots less consistently than the same cases and powder loaded on a single stage press in the same weapon then your workflow, setup or configuration is less than ideal.

 

[RoosterShooter]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

Dillon makes a threaded adapter to fit in your 550 or 650 that will accompany a RCBS, Redding, or any other drop powder measure that you choose!

I have heard of guys using these, and only adding one step to their progressive process.

For example, on a 650 it would look like this ...

1) Deprime / Size

2) Prime <span style="font-weight: bold">OR</span> Prime / Charge

3) Charge <span style="font-weight: bold">OR</span> Empty

4) Seat

5) Crimp

The lever style powder measures today are known for their +/- .0 grain accuracy.

Here is the one for the 550 .... http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/catid/3/pid/23634/Powder_Measure_Adapter


In my opinion, the room for error is still there, but the level of error is so minute that it's insignificant. I would much rather adapt my 650 run progressively that limit it's potential by performing several of the steps off press.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[adam3999]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RoosterShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The lever style powder measures today are known for their +/- .0 grain accuracy.

Here is the one for the 550 .... http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/catid/3/pid/23634/Powder_Measure_Adapter

</div></div>

The Hornady LnL AP case activated powder measure will also work with a 550 in an automated fashion. These are supposedly a little better with stick powder than the Dillon:

http://www.hornady.com/store/Case-Activated-Powder-Drop-1-Each/

I use a 550 and individually weigh with a ChargeMaster. Works very well.

 

[RoosterShooter]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: adam3999</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RoosterShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The lever style powder measures today are known for their +/- .0 grain accuracy.

Here is the one for the 550 .... http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/catid/3/pid/23634/Powder_Measure_Adapter

</div></div>

The Hornady LnL AP case activated powder measure will also work with a 550 in an automated fashion. These are supposedly a little better with stick powder than the Dillon:

http://www.hornady.com/store/Case-Activated-Powder-Drop-1-Each/

I use a 550 and individually weigh with a ChargeMaster. Works very well. </div></div>

If I were going to go this route I would definitely go Redding. They offer one of the best on the market, and I've had luck with my single stage / match setup using a 3BR. I load both IMR 8208 XBR and H335 and it never skips a beat.

However, on my 650 I'm happy with the minor +/-.1 that the Dillon stock setup throws.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

it is really not the press but the quality of componants and the load itself.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

I trust scales, not measures.

 

[Duffy1298]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

i have kind of settle on the idea that any accuracy issues are due to MYSELF as well as me being an absolute novice at working up loads.
i keep hearing about accuracy nodes. someone please explain i have no clue what an accuracy node is.

 

[lachoneus]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

A good explanation can be found here:

Newberry's OCW Load Development System

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

I've added the Unique-Tek toolhead clamping kit to my 650. It stops all movement of the head when the ram is raised. I also populate all unused stations (#1 if I'm using sized/primed brass and #5 if no crimping die installed) with just a plain powder die. I adjust them so thy contact the shell plate when the ram is fully raised. I do likewise with the powder check station. This eliminates all "vertical slop" from the shell plate and my COAL variations have dropped to what I achieve from my single stage press.

Uniform powder charges still remain an enigma as I use Varget. I've just taken to using my Chargemaster to drop and weigh charges. I then use a Lee Universal Rifle Powder Die and funnel, pouring in the powder when the ram is up. Had to cut a relief on one side for the powder check rod to clear but it works great.

According to my Press Monitor I can maintain a steady 100 rounds per hour with weighed charges. For the ball powder loaded rounds it's far faster with nice uniform case lengths. Can't really see an improvement over a single stage.

For alleviating any concentricity issues consider using a Whidden floating die tool head. The sizing die and seating die are free to float laterally so the die doesn't induce any concentricity.

 

[YAOG]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I trust scales, not measures. </div></div>

This is the second reason I use the 550 as a single stage press. In testing with stick powders I found no powder measure that was as consistent as even a cheap digital scale. So I use a digital scale backed up by my ancient 1010 which IMO is still the gold standard.

 

[YAOG]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it is really not the press but the quality of componants and the load itself. </div></div>

So you are saying buy good brass, bullets, powder and use a good load they will automatically produce perfectly consistent shooting ammunition.

Reload much?

 

[YAOG]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: adam3999</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><<<SNIPPED>>>
I use a 550 and individually weigh with a ChargeMaster. Works very well. </div></div>

We use a 550 as a single stage press and use a Hornady digital dispenser backed up by a 1010. The Hornady is pretty good once I modified it with a static charged straw. I hardly ever test with the 1010 these days once I know the Hornady is warmed up and working right.

 

[YAOG]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Duffy1298</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><<<SNIPPED>>>
It is by no means a factory rifle, thats why i was wondering if i should be concerned. </div></div>

Duffy1298,

Can your rifle produce better groups with a known better than you are shooter driving your rifle with your reloads on a good day? If the answer is yes the obvious answer to your question is no, don't spend any more time worrying about it. Instead spend that time with a shooting coach. If the known better shooter than you are cannot produce better groups than you can the limitation may be rifle setup (mount, rings, scope), trigger, barreled action, rifle stock, your ammunition or all of the above.

Many custom rifles shoot no better than good factory rifles. IMO the reason is that most gunsmiths are used to building rifles for hunters where a MOD (minute of deer) is good enough. If the gun parts used to produce your custom built rifle are of better quality the only possible source of the problem is the gunsmith. Find a better gunsmith who is into the same game as you are precision long range shooting and ask for help.

Determine how well the rifle can shoot using an independent shooter who is a better shot than you are. Proceed accordingly.

 

[Joebill]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

I'm using a 550 with a redding drop and getting great results from my 308 and the wife's 260. Used a single stage and measured everything before now I guess our shooting skills aren't good enough to show the difference or the difference is not big enough to notice.
You got good advice try the single stage and see what happens. Good Luck

 

[lachoneus]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Can your rifle produce better groups with a known better than you are shooter driving your rifle with your reloads on a good day? If the answer is yes the obvious answer to your question is no, don't spend any more time worrying about it. Instead spend that time with a shooting coach. If the known better shooter than you are cannot produce better groups than you can the limitation may be rifle setup (mount, rings, scope), trigger, barreled action, rifle stock, your ammunition or all of the above.
</div></div>

Similar advice has saved me a lot of money and headaches. One of my friends is a very accomplished competitive shooter. I thought my rifle or my ammo was problematic. He shot the rifle using my ammo, and immediately produced a very respectable group. "Not your rifle nor your ammo," he said, "so let's talk about you." On his advice, I stopped focusing so much on equipment and ammo, and started focusing instead on trigger time and technique. For me, that made a big difference in my abilities.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

Mebbe someone can enlighten me...

I don't understand why- WITH the exception of the powder charge itself- some say "more consistent" ammunition can be made on a single stage press.

Never owned one. Started with a LNL AP two years ago, and 10,000 rounds (no pistol, all centerfire) later have no regrets or hiccups.

A die is a die, it doesn't know whether it's in a single stage, or progressive press. So when it comes to FL sizing/decapping, and bullet seating, I fail to see where there could be a distinction made.

Far as powder charge, granted. Vibration of any sort can really throw the charge off, particularly with some large stick powder like Varget. But most of the time, everything falls within .2, usually .1.

Now that I finally broke down and got a chrono, I need to find out if that .2 of a grain makes enough of difference in velocity to have a measureable effect at 600-1000 yards.

 

[YAOG]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mebbe someone can enlighten me...

I don't understand why- WITH the exception of the powder charge itself- some say "more consistent" ammunition can be made on a single stage press.</div></div>

Nobody can enlighten you because this is simply not true. Even if you run a progressive press as a progressive press you can produce excellent ammunition if it is well setup and you understand the potential mechanical limitations of the press design. If you setup your progressive (I use a Dillon 550) to be used as a single stage press you can produce finished rounds just as precise as ANY single stage press on the market.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never owned one. Started with a LNL AP two years ago, and 10,000 rounds (no pistol, all centerfire) later have no regrets or hiccups.</div></div>

I have owned single stage presses and they are no more precise than a well setup Dillon 550. I can see a use for a single stage press on the side as a tool to support a progressive press for the convenience of depriming which can help keep the progressive press cleaner and for taking fast measurements with a Redding Instant Comparator (fantasic tool!)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A die is a die, it doesn't know whether it's in a single stage, or progressive press. So when it comes to FL sizing/decapping, and bullet seating, I fail to see where there could be a distinction made.</div></div>

Absolutely! A single stage press is no more likely to produce high precision loaded rounds than a progressive press. It is the skill and knoweldge of the person seting up and using the press that make the press produce good or bad ammo. Nothing more or less.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Far as powder charge, granted. Vibration of any sort can really throw the charge off, particularly with some large stick powder like Varget. But most of the time, everything falls within .2, usually .1.

Now that I finally broke down and got a chrono, I need to find out if that .2 of a grain makes enough of difference in velocity to have a measureable effect at 600-1000 yards. </div></div>

You will find that people obsess over 0.1grain for a reason. It can and does make a difference at long ranges. That 0.1 grain will show up more and more as you shoot farther out. If your goal is to shoot and hit small objects at 1,000 yards scale your loads using a good digital dispenser or a 1010 beam scale.

HTH!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Precision ammo on a progressive press.

I individually weigh charges for F Class at any distance.

My other ammo gets loaded progressively. To set my measure, I drop 5 charges and weigh the total. When that total matches within 1gr or less off the projected total (desired charge times five), I go with that powder charge setting.

My semi's and service rifles don't seem to mind. My hunters use commercial hunting loads.

YOAG's basic outlook parallels mine. I have only, ever owned and used an RL550B. If anyone finds it is harder make good ammo on a pregressive, that has never been my experience.

I sent most of my handloading lifetime needing to be frugal. I would recommend the RL550B regardless of your financial situation. It simply offers the most options for your handloading press expenditure.

It is also both highly durable and most easily rectified when the inevitible part failure occurs. Every failure has been the result of someone doing something wrong, and Dillon doesn't penalize for operator error.

The no-BS warrantee is precisely that. Just tell them what part is broken and it's on the way. I've even asked for an extra (if I broke it once, I could end up doing it again), and I got it when I asked. Dillon has always been super easy to deal with.

Greg