F T/R Competition Predicting the next trend...

[Tpb10505]

I'm putting this here b/c I think I might heckled for this idea in the reloading section haha.

I read about the new Berger 270 cal bullet with a supposed G7 of .360 and had an idea. The 7mm Saum is the current flavor right now, so has anyone given the thought of 270 Saum?

I think when this new 170gr .277 Hybrid comes out, we will see another trend in the direction of the .277 rounds as I think the ballistics and velocity will be superior to the 7mm offerings.

Just some musings from a noob

 

[XTR]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

If it does it will be at the expense of barrels. There is also supposed to be the new Berger 195 7mm with a BC that is somewhere just this side of gravity defying.

I think the 7mm just may be the sweet spot for BC, velocity, recoil, and barrel life.

 

[Tpb10505]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

What speeds can people expect to push the 195gr for it to pay off in drift? Sidebar: Whats the biggest magnum for 7mm? (excluding something like a 7mm-338 or similarly ridiculous wildcats)

 

[XTR]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

Most shooters are pushing RSAUM or WSMs either the 7mm or a 7-300/270WSM (the 300/270 case is a bit smaller)

The new 7mm bullet has an estimated G1 BC of something like .797, the 180 Hybrid is something like a .674 I think, that is a HUGE BC jump. People are pushing 180s in the 3000 FPS neighborhood from 30" barrels. Just a guess from playing with JBM but it looks like it can run 200 FPS slower than a 180 Hybrid and still have slightly better windage.

 

[wadebrown]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

The concern I would have with a .277 competition gun is that if the gun doesn't like the Bergers where are you going to go. With the 7mm and the 6.5 mm you have multiple choices of high BC match bullets, giving you options if you find it does not shoot bullet A you move onto B..

 

[George63]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tpb10505</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What speeds can people expect to push the 195gr for it to pay off in drift? Sidebar: Whats the biggest magnum for 7mm? (excluding something like a 7mm-338 or similarly ridiculous wildcats) </div></div>

?? on the 195 - it does not yet exist so who can say - it may end up like the 90gr .223 where the consensus = no measurable advantage

7mm STW which is now a saami spec cartridge but still pretty ridiculous for practicality

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

IMHO, the advantage of a higher BC lies primarily in its ability to reduce time of flight. Less time equates to less drop and less drift.

The problem with bullet weight and BC is that you reach a break-even point between how fast you can drive it at the muzzle, and how fast it's going at impact. It's the <span style="font-style: italic">average</span> velocity that determines the time of flight.

Average time of flight is also what determines throat life. You kick it up, the throat goes away sooner.

I look at it this way.

Drop is essentially a constant.

Drift is a variable that depends on time of flight. Whatever the forces are that generate it, they are greater with a longer time of flight, and smaller with a shorter time of flight.

But either way, they are a matter for wind estimation and prior expereince to factor out and render a wind correction.

In essence, whether the TOF is shorter or longer, the process is the same. If your wind estimation or experience are lacking, it matters little whether you have a short or long TOF. If they are exquisite, it still matters little. You either succeed or fail based on your skills, and not based on TOF.

All the muzzle velocity and BC in the world, it still boils down to skills, and not to the BC and velocity. All upping that ante buys you is more throat burnout.

Wind and drift are always going to be there, and whatever they are, the skills are what handle the issues.

Give your rifle a break, bite the bullet (pun intended), work on your skills, and quit abusing good equipment by running it past full throttle.

Greg

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

A good line of 25 cal bullets would settle the 6/6.5mm debate.

25 Creedmoor would be awesome.

 

[doc gordon]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

6.5 rsaum just thinking!the bullets are ready.

 

[Tpb10505]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

Greg, I appreciate your great advice. I have a Savage 12 Palma and I've been thoroughly debating my next move with that, or a completely different build. I've decided to be sensible and keep the Palma as is (I think F/TR is a much greater challenge than F-Open). I plan on puttting a Bartlein Palma barrel in the same stock, and either have it bedded properly, or use a Whidden V-block. I think those two things will improve on what I already have, without spending a ridiculous sum to do so. Thanks!

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

As much as I like 6.5's stay away from a 6.5 short mag. Barrel life is about 500 rounds.

I've been being asked the same questions about the new 195's in 7mm. It's going to depend on how fast you can push them. The whole time of flight etc...you might not be able to get any gain out of them.

Greg made some good points as well as someone making the point of the 90gr. .224cal bullets. You get to a point of diminishing returns.

My F-Class open gun is a 7mm and I'm shooting the 180Vld's.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Gray]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tpb10505</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What speeds can people expect to push the 195gr for it to pay off in drift? Sidebar: Whats the biggest magnum for 7mm? (excluding something like a 7mm-338 or similarly ridiculous wildcats) </div></div>

A 7mm STW would take great advantage of the new 195's BC, but a 7 Mag built right would push them at or around 3000fps. A 7mm Allen (7/338 LM Improved) would definitely scream that new round.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

Here's my experience. Over several years I shot the monthly 1000yd F Class at Bodines in PA.

My rifle was a blueprinted Savage 10FP action, Sharpshooter Supply trigger, McMillan A3 Tactical Stock, factory pillar bedded, and a Lothar-Walther LW-50 Stainless barrel, 28" long, 1:8" twist, with SAAMI .260 Rem chambering. As Savage based customs go, it was a very good one; coming in 2001, well before Savage did anything with Palma or F Class optimized factory rifles.

It was handicapped by two issues. The .2690 chambering was not the ripsnorter the 6.5-284 was. It was being shot by me, and that's always a handicap. On a good day, it placed in the top ten, and other days, not. If performance was going to improve, that improvement was going to come from improving me, and not the rifle.

I never replaced that barrel; never needed it, and it's still very shootable. That would/could <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">never</span></span> have been the case with the 6.5-284.

These days, the L-W .260 barrel sits all by its lonesome, and the rifle wears a 21-ish" .30BR barrel of exotic origin (as in don't ask, even I don't know where it came from, and I got it as a very rough blank).

The L-W .260 barrel will be going onto my new Savage Predator Hunter .260 as soon as I can get the other projects (.30BR FV250 Open Rifle and a Stag Super Varminter 5.56 FV250 F-T/R Rifle) off the front burner. Right now they are both undergoing mid-stage load development work.

I like the longer barrels for throat preservation reasons. The longer the barrel, the less fire in the boiler room is need to make velocity. I ran my L-W at 2800-2850 fps, probably well below its full potential. I treated it as a marathon runner, and not as a sprinter. The moral of the tale is told by the borescope. The throat is still in very good condition after roughly 1500 for-real match rounds. Loads were R-P or renecked Win brass, CCI BR-2, 43.8gr of H4350 and either 142SMK or 140 AMax. Warm, but not blistering. It will put a 95 V-Max out at nearly hypersonic speed, using a published min load.

Greg

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Special Delivery</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tpb10505</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What speeds can people expect to push the 195gr for it to pay off in drift? Sidebar: Whats the biggest magnum for 7mm? (excluding something like a 7mm-338 or similarly ridiculous wildcats) </div></div>

A 7mm STW would take great advantage of the new 195's BC, but a 7 Mag built right would push them at or around 3000fps. A 7mm Allen (7/338 LM Improved) would definitely scream that new round. </div></div>

Yea a hot 7 like this would be cool but you have the problem of barrel life. Guys shooting the 7 short mags on F-Class guns are burning the barrels up in about 600 rounds. They're lucky if they hit 700-800 mark.

That's why my gun is a .284win.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[eracer]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Special Delivery</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tpb10505</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What speeds can people expect to push the 195gr for it to pay off in drift? Sidebar: Whats the biggest magnum for 7mm? (excluding something like a 7mm-338 or similarly ridiculous wildcats) </div></div>

A 7mm STW would take great advantage of the new 195's BC, but a 7 Mag built right would push them at or around 3000fps. A 7mm Allen (7/338 LM Improved) would definitely scream that new round. </div></div>

Yea a hot 7 like this would be cool but you have the problem of barrel life. <span style="font-weight: bold">Guys shooting the 7 short mags on F-Class guns are burning the barrels up in about 600 rounds</span>. They're lucky if they hit 700-800 mark.

That's why my gun is a .284win.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>

That's why the barrel you're building for my 7mm SAUM will be nitrided.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

Yep gotta send out one of my 6.5mm barrels for meloniting so I can give it a whirl and see how it does for us!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[eracer]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yep gotta send out one of my 6.5mm barrels for meloniting so I can give it a whirl and see how it does for us!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>Keep us informed as you go through testing, OK?

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

You bet!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

My days as a LR competitive shooter are probably in my past now. A number of petty and annpying issue conspire to make that something rather beyond my reach. I don't mind. I had and took advantage of a lot of opportunity to learn the process and try my personal brand of LR shooting skullduggery.

There is one project I still wish I could have tried. I think I'd like to see what someone could do with a long barreled .280 Rem in F Open.

Maybe it's a hohum, maybe it's better. I think it has significant potential.

Greg

 

[Zilla]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

Greg
David Bailey, team captain of The Longshots, shoots a .280 Rem. It works well.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

Much thanks. I guess I'm not so crazy after all.

 

[mceod]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

I shot a prototype rifle a couple years ago in 270 SAUM. I think I have some pictures somewhere that I could dig up. I don't remember the specifics of the ballistics, but recoil was pretty much nil and the dudes were saying the groups were pretty impressive.

Pictures located. You can't really tell much from the picture. The second picture is of one of the primer pockets. It was about 100+ degrees that day and that had happened once or twice. The USO on top of the rifle also had a prototype reticle. I really wish this wasn't before I was into longer range shooting, then I probably would have remember more details....

 

[eracer]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Much thanks. I guess I'm not so crazy after all. </div></div>Yes you are!

 

[KT35]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is one project I still wish I could have tried. I think I'd like to see what someone could do with a long barreled .280 Rem in F Open.

Maybe it's a hohum, maybe it's better. I think it has significant potential.

Greg </div></div>

Not a 280 rem but there is a guy at Butner that shoots a 280AI in Open with us. And does very well. I'm pretty sure that barrel life is very short though.

I'm like Frank. I went with the 284 but I"m using the 180hybrids.


KT

 

[gme]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mceod</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shot a prototype rifle a couple years ago in 270 SAUM. I think I have some pictures somewhere that I could dig up. I don't remember the specifics of the ballistics, but recoil was pretty much nil and the dudes were saying the groups were pretty impressive.

Pictures located. You can't really tell much from the picture. The second picture is of one of the primer pockets. It was about 100+ degrees that day and that had happened once or twice. The USO on top of the rifle also had a prototype reticle. I really wish this wasn't before I was into longer range shooting, then I probably would have remember more details....

</div></div>

Those were good times, spent a lot of time behind that rifle.
The rifle was a prototype built by Pierce Engineering using one of their long actions, Broughton supplied the barrel, Quicksilver the titanium suppressor a custom USO scope and an early version of what would become the RTM chassis, it was chambered in 7SAUM with 180 grain Berger's (pre Hybrid) the loads were VERY hot but the rifle shot incredibly well. The rifle was part of the Raytheon Tactical Engagement Support System (TESS) it was originally demonstrated at USSOCOM Mac Dill and was the first rifle system presented to them as a contender in the very early stages of whats known now as the PSR program. In addition to demos at the stumps, it was demonstrated at the special forces sniper school Fort Bragg before big "Ray" decided that small arms was not the direction they wanted to go and pulled the plug, there were actually two rifles built, the other in .308, which was later destroyed. The input we received from those trips was quite favorable overall and very useful in developing the products we currently produce.

 

[DBailey]

Re: Predicting the next trend...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greg
David Bailey, team captain of The Longshots, shoots a .280 Rem. It works well. </div></div>

The plain old 280 is a very good performing round. But I have to admit, my favorite thing about it is the way most shooters look at you like you're crazy when they find out what you are shooting.