Gunsmithing Preferred end mills
- Thread starter K_4c
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"kits" and tooling rarely work well together. Tools are so application-specific anymore that it really pays to do your homework. This is where latching on to a well-qualified tool rep pays big dividends.
Case in point. Right now I am wrapping up a job for a friend who is a "turd chaser" on Ft Carson. (Wastewater Management) They have an array of obsolete pumps that are fitted with a wear item. The material is 1.25" 316 Stainless plate. Austenitic stainless is very prone to work hardening.
When I started I was using a 1/2" rougher at 20ipm and 1200RPM. It took 1.5 hours to pocket the interior ring. I switched to a high-performance tool, a shrinker, and a dynamic contour. I did the same job in 26 minutes at 284ipm, 5200rpm, and a .025" stepover. At full depth mind you. (1.3" depth on a 1.5LOC tool)
Yeah, no shit. I took an hour out of the cycle time. This was also done dry. Just a little air on the tool to clear the coffee grounds.
The tooling made all the difference. It is well worth your time to find a good tool vendor that legitimately tries to solve problems vs just selling you stuff.
Good luck.
230ipm. 4585rpm. 1/2" tool. Parlec shrinker. .01" stepover. 1.3"LOC.
300% of tool radius on entry and exit. No coolant. Air only. I kinda goofed. Return feed rate set at 25% for some dumb reason. Last one so I dont care. Normally I'd run it at 2 or 300% of feed just to get the tool back into material that much quicker.
316 stainless
300% of tool radius on entry and exit. No coolant. Air only. I kinda goofed. Return feed rate set at 25% for some dumb reason. Last one so I dont care. Normally I'd run it at 2 or 300% of feed just to get the tool back into material that much quicker.
316 stainless
It’s not cheap, but if you have deep pockets and enough spindle then ceramic tooling is where it’s at for high speed machining.
I appreciate your feedback. I’m nothing more then a tinker that likes to make/modify stuff as I go. Essentially I’m just asking for a reputable manufacturer of fine carbide end mills (4 flute flat and ball variants).
by “kit” I meant a set of carbide end mills in the applicable sizes (1/8-1/2”).
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Buying machines is cheap, it’s the tooling that will cost you.
Whatever you do, don’t buy anything out of China. All of the hobby grade stuff is shit, likewise anything being sold locally that shares packaging with the chinese garbage and seems too cheap to be true usually is.
Anything European is generally fairly high quality. I’m not too sure about what the US manufacturers are like, but surely there are a few that produce good tooling?
Whatever you do, don’t buy anything out of China. All of the hobby grade stuff is shit, likewise anything being sold locally that shares packaging with the chinese garbage and seems too cheap to be true usually is.
Anything European is generally fairly high quality. I’m not too sure about what the US manufacturers are like, but surely there are a few that produce good tooling?
Also assuming your machine is sufficiently rigid your main limiting factors for tooling are spindle hp/speed, table travel speed and materials type.
There are online calculators for all of the numbers you need, but provided you do not need to cut a pocket smaller than your tool then all your heavy work will probably be done with 1 or 2 sizes of roughing mill and the same for finishing.
There are online calculators for all of the numbers you need, but provided you do not need to cut a pocket smaller than your tool then all your heavy work will probably be done with 1 or 2 sizes of roughing mill and the same for finishing.
I’m just a hobbyist gents. I picked a Precision Matthews mill with DRO and put on a x axis power feed. Small little machine, but it’s handled every I’ve take upon myself to build. Mainly used for Jeep parts, or inlet rifle stocks. Nothing serious. I had a few burnt out barrels that I ripped into to figure out different feed and speed with the carbide end mills that I do have. Just tinkering.
appreciate the input guys
appreciate the input guys
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I thought your avatar was a CNC machining center for some reason.
You might not be able to get enough RPM to make the most of carbide tooling, but the best thing to do would be to head on over to practicalmachinist and have a poke around there, those boys should be able to get you sorted out.
You might not be able to get enough RPM to make the most of carbide tooling, but the best thing to do would be to head on over to practicalmachinist and have a poke around there, those boys should be able to get you sorted out.
One of the parts we make, I had a problem with chatter and non-optimal feed. Tool rep came out, suggested a tool and tips, got them in, it went WORSE for chatter. He came back out next day, checked out feeds, cut, etc, realised he goofed, credited us, got it sorted.
We are all human. It happens. Just because a Catalog or some page says "this is good" doesn't mean it works "best".
Right tool for the right job.
To answer the question, there is no "go to" brand for tooling. Stainless or alloy, even cro-mo, what type of coolant you use, how much pressure your coolant has, how fast you can spin the tool, and how you are holding it. Why slab cut with a 6mm 2 flute when a 5 insert face cutter can do it in 1/4 the time, and 200% less load ?
We are all human. It happens. Just because a Catalog or some page says "this is good" doesn't mean it works "best".
Right tool for the right job.
To answer the question, there is no "go to" brand for tooling. Stainless or alloy, even cro-mo, what type of coolant you use, how much pressure your coolant has, how fast you can spin the tool, and how you are holding it. Why slab cut with a 6mm 2 flute when a 5 insert face cutter can do it in 1/4 the time, and 200% less load ?
I use a lot of tooling from Destiny Tools, https://www.destinytool.com/ they're located in California as am I so shipping is quick and their 3 flute carbide variable helix tooling is great for all the aluminum I machine.
I order through their supplier https://www.carbidecart.com/
This. 100 million percent. If you go with a tool list PER PROJECT, you will find that you will save money in the long run. And there are many tools that can cross over. $1K in tooling wont get you very far, and it can get you very little if you try to buy a kit if it has the wrong tooling. Also, a tool list that is made means that a machining approach has been pre-determined, so success has a better chance of occurring.
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Given your situation running a manual machine I don't think you'll see enough of a benefit from running the high dollar tooling to justify it's cost. It just doesn't have the rigidity, spindle speed and feed consistency of the big CNC's these guys are running. Will an expensive cutter work better? Yes, but is the cost justified for what you're doing? Probably not.
If I were in your position, I would probably buy a couple mid range carbides in a few common sizes to match the work you expect to do. Maybe 1/2, 3/8, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16. If you're running soft metals as well as steel get a mix of 2 and 4 flute cutters for each size. Soft metal will gall up and pack off the flutes of a 4 flute. Whatever the house brand is from a respectable tooling supply company like MSC, McMaster, etc. Not the cheapest you can find on E-Bay, or from that tool guy at the flea market though.
Buy specialty tools in HSS and run them carefully unless the task demands carbide. If the curiosity of what a high end cutter will do for you is too strong to resist, buy one or two in a size you use a lot (IE a 1/4) and compare the work done with that, to a new mid range. My experience has been that you get better return on multiple cheaper end mills than one high dollar mill for most manual work, especially if you're new to it. A fancy tool with the tips burned off makes just as big a mess as a cheap tool with the tips burned off.
If I were in your position, I would probably buy a couple mid range carbides in a few common sizes to match the work you expect to do. Maybe 1/2, 3/8, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16. If you're running soft metals as well as steel get a mix of 2 and 4 flute cutters for each size. Soft metal will gall up and pack off the flutes of a 4 flute. Whatever the house brand is from a respectable tooling supply company like MSC, McMaster, etc. Not the cheapest you can find on E-Bay, or from that tool guy at the flea market though.
Buy specialty tools in HSS and run them carefully unless the task demands carbide. If the curiosity of what a high end cutter will do for you is too strong to resist, buy one or two in a size you use a lot (IE a 1/4) and compare the work done with that, to a new mid range. My experience has been that you get better return on multiple cheaper end mills than one high dollar mill for most manual work, especially if you're new to it. A fancy tool with the tips burned off makes just as big a mess as a cheap tool with the tips burned off.
I look on eBay and buy big lots of 'used' or surplus end mills. Tons of them online.
My best score was $400 for 2,000 end mills from a Boeing plant in Kansas c. 2007... Probably all smuggled out by some guy in his lunch box. I am STILL using those end mills. I have so many left, I will be using them for another decade. For much of our work, which is not CNC production or documented/traced aerospace work, used mills and/or odd lots are your friend! You can do a LOT of work with used carbide (and HSS) mills that are not managing to make the metrology for a CNC machine or a high-end manufacturer.
But we can get a lot of life out of stuff that big name shops would toss.
Cheers,
Sirhr
My best score was $400 for 2,000 end mills from a Boeing plant in Kansas c. 2007... Probably all smuggled out by some guy in his lunch box. I am STILL using those end mills. I have so many left, I will be using them for another decade. For much of our work, which is not CNC production or documented/traced aerospace work, used mills and/or odd lots are your friend! You can do a LOT of work with used carbide (and HSS) mills that are not managing to make the metrology for a CNC machine or a high-end manufacturer.
But we can get a lot of life out of stuff that big name shops would toss.
Cheers,
Sirhr
For a manual mill, the AccuPro line from MSC will give you the best performance for the money. Just a FYI, a lot of the quality carbide on eBay is stolen.
Not a gunsmith, but journeyman tool and die by trade. I have had great luck with SGS z-carb.
Garr tool, Lakeshore Carbide, SGS, Niagara, OSG, Harvey Tool, are my go to carbide endmills. I never buy a kit, I buy what I need usually 6-12 at a time. Harvey Tool, and Lakeshore Carbide make some gunsmith specific endmills that help when milling things like 80% AR lowers, 1911s, and Picatinny Rails.
Garr, SGS, and OSG are my go to endmills when I have a lot of parts to run or Mold Inserts to surface machine.
Garr, SGS, and OSG are my go to endmills when I have a lot of parts to run or Mold Inserts to surface machine.
I love the Mill I got the Matthews Precision 727V al so with the DRO. Great Machine it has done everything I have asked it too. But I am no production guy either so works fine for me. I started out buying Niagara 2 flutes for aluminum and some 4 flutes for steel. Just my opinion but since I am not running a CNC I didn't see a huge advantage for me the next time around I bought some Harvey tool endmills and they worked fine for me too. The last time I tried some imports from CME tools in carbide and was able to purchase every size of windmill I wanted for the same price. They are still going for me but like I said I am no production guy either just a few projects a month. If I really want a great finish in steel or something I will still by a 7 flute Accupro from MSC they are great quality too. I guess a long way around answer is it depends on the project. I feel a new sharp endmill is better than any old dull endmill.
I use a lot of Garr. They have a good variety and are reasonably priced. I like Harvey Tool when using smaller cutters 1/8” diameter or less. Harvey is pricey but they make a lot of micro and long reach stuff that a lot of my jobs often call for. SGS, OSG, Helical, all make good cutters as well but I find that 90% of what I do I choose Garr.
Reminds me of my first day working at a WW2 era shipyard machine shop. They called me the "Floor Man". When we got something in that we didn't have prints for it was my job to tear it down and document what came from where. Basically a print with dimensions. My first job was tearing down a grinder pump from a turd processing plant. The super said it was a "Gravy Job". There was gravy but you wouldn't put it over mashed potatoes!! My nickname became Gravy. That was 40 plus years ago.
