Rifle Scopes Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

[Gray]

I'm sure there has been a thread about this, but I would like to know everyone's opinion on these two scopes.I'm using a 12-50x56 S&B and really like it. Also Have a 5.5-22x50 NF but wanting to go a different route next. Any insight would be greatlt appreciated.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Special Delivery</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure there has been a thread about this </div></div>


There has. Search

For what it's worth, I bought an S&B 5-25 and liked it so much I sold my 5.5-22x NF to help fund a second.

 

[Gray]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

Yeah not really seeing comparisons between the two when searching, anyway I want the most current suggestions from hide members as I am about to pick one or the other. Thanks

 

[71firebird400]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

Premier is going through some funky ownership issues; for that reason alone I'd go with S&B. At least you have some confidence they'll still be around in 5 years.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

I love my Premiers...and I've owned SB.

Premier is a gamble right now. I think they'll come out the other side A OK, and if they do, you'll make money owning it. If their situation goes sideways though, you'll lose your ass financially on it. I would guess it would be worth $1k or less if there was zero support for it.

 

[RonboF117]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

I've used both and prefer the S&B. Both are excellent; it may come down to which features are more important to you.

 

[vonbalkenbush]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

I've spent a considerable amount of time behind both. I now run Premier's exclusively. Reiterating what others have already said, Premier is in management limbo right now. That never bothered me and I love their product and have never needed to use their customer service for any reason. The glass between the two is almost indiscernible, it's hard to tell which one you are looking through except for the reticle in front of you. I don't like the location of the illumination knob on the S&B and also prefer the heavier clicks of the Premier's turrets. It's also nice to be able to zero you turrets and zero stop with no tools. I would base my choice off of what reticle you want to run, which knobs you prefer and your preference's on illumination. Because aside from those things you're going to get almost identical performance from both units.

-SBS

 

[jonthomps]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

I would agree the glass clarity and build quality of both scopes is top notch. It's the "restructuring" of PH that would worry me. Terms like that are usually verbal camouflage for a much deeper problem. Like others have said, if you go with PH you're taking a $3500 gamble. It could pay off. It might not too. I really liked my PH 5-25, but the business side of their company just isn't stable enough for me to sink any money into them. When I became aware of what was going on I sold mine.

 

[Gray]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

Guys, thanks for the input, sounds like a S&B 5-25 w/H59 is in my near future. I'm good on having Serice issues if something goes south.

 

[Alpine 338]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

I have both the S&B and Premier 5-25x56's, and In my opinion (my eye's) I feel (see) the Premeir having slightly better glass. Both scopes have their good and bad, for example, again my opinion, I think the P4F reticle is a better reticle over the XR that Premier offers, and now that S&B is offering the MSR, that's even better. The Premier feels more rugged and robust, whereas the S&B feels fragile.
Both mfg. have outstanding service, but Premier has a touch better customer service where you actually communicate with the one who will be handling your scope.
I've sent one S&B scope back for a dislodged object inside the scope, and I had to wait a couple months for that repair.
With Premier, I've sent one scope back for a canted reticle, and two other scopes for reticle changes, and all those took less then a 5-weeks.
I'm running S&B scopes on all my Sako TRG's and an LMT AR. All my Premiers are on my GAP rifles and one Rem 5R.
I guess if it were a perfect world, I would have a Premier with S&B P4F or the new MSR reticle. Now that would be the perfect scope.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

To expound on the above..

The Gen2XR reticle is actually better than the P4F EXCEPT that it lacks the .2mrad stadia at the outer edges, which I sorely miss.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

Alpine, S&B might feel fragile to you but it's used by militaries around the globe including our own militry to include SOCOM so it is plenty rugged. Refined might be a better word than fragile

When did you deal with the service center? Jerry from the S&B service center posts here regularly and you can speak to the person who is working on your scope pretty easily. There used to be a time where they had to send the scopes back to Germany but no more and service is handled fairly quickly from the VA center.

On the S&B reticle, OP look at the h2cmr. Excellent reticle and replace the P4F as my favorite. Been using it for over a year now in matches and it is excellent for all holds.

 

[Alpine 338]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

The main issue I have with the XR reticle is the MilDot is smaller then the half-mil hash mark, and throws me off when holding for wind. Having the half-mil mark a smaller value then the Mrad mark is second nature for me i.e. P4F, TMR, Gen2 MilDot, etc. I'm slowly getting used to the XR since I'm running it on my 300WM that I compete with on a monthly basis, but I still need to think about it. I agree, the .2mrad stadia at the outer edges of the P4F and TMR reticles is something of a benefit that is missing from the XR reticle.

You're right, it's just my perception of S&B being fragile. I feel the same way about my Sako TRG rifles compaired to AI or some custom Rem action rifles. Like S&B, Sako TRG's are used world-wide by many military forces.

My S&B was repaired in the USA, as I remember S&B CS saying hurry up and get it shipped to us before the German Tech.s head home for Christmas vacation.

 

[LibertyOptics]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

I will tell you my opinion....avoid both right now. I think, for the first time since I've been doing this, the balance of power in the tactical world has shifted to Japan. To wit:

Vortex Razor
Nighforce
Bushnell Elite Tactical
Trijicon TARS
SWFA Super Sniper Variables
Weaver Tactical

This being said that I've yet to lay eyes on the current Kahles or Steiner production offerings...but that will change for SHOT 2013.


I think the other two aforementioned Euro brands have issues. I keep hearing repeated rumors that Premier is in their death throes......S&B, the New Years Day dealer price surprise, combined with the exodus of many talented engineers under the new leadership of the company, raises red flags for me. I've also had reports of recent production S&B scopes having "issues" with tracking and/or zero holding. I've had one customer who bought a 4-16x42 shoot 4 feet high at 100 yards with his new scope. The repair center said the scopes erector springs were collapsed and the scope was thought to be used internally rather than new. WTF? Plus, where are the 1-8x short dots?? Things just don't add up for me.

At any rate, take all of this as just my opinion, but I'm troubled with the future of either brand right now.

Add in the fact of Hensoldt's new offerings not even kissing our shores and you get an underwhelming presence of tactical Euro-optics in the US marketplace right now. Sad but true.

Meanwhile, the influx of Japanese-made tactical scopes is too big and widespread to ignore anymore

Scott

 

[BlueVFRank]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

Don't forget the March scopes from Japan!

I'm still loving mine and saving up for the next one (ouch)

 

[thefitter]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will tell you my opinion....avoid both right now. I think, for the first time since I've been doing this, the balance of power in the tactical world has shifted to Japan. To wit:

Vortex Razor
Nighforce
Bushnell Elite Tactical
Trijicon TARS
SWFA Super Sniper Variables
Weaver Tactical

This being said that I've yet to lay eyes on the current Kahles or Steiner production offerings...but that will change for SHOT 2013.


I think the other two aforementioned Euro brands have issues. I keep hearing repeated rumors that Premier is in their death throes......S&B, the New Years Day dealer price surprise, combined with the exodus of many talented engineers under the new leadership of the company, raises red flags for me. I've also had reports of recent production S&B scopes having "issues" with tracking and/or zero holding. I've had one customer who bought a 4-16x42 shoot 4 feet high at 100 yards with his new scope. The repair center said the scopes erector springs were collapsed and the scope was thought to be used internally rather than new. WTF? Plus, where are the 1-8x short dots?? Things just don't add up for me.

At any rate, take all of this as just my opinion, but I'm troubled with the future of either brand right now.

Add in the fact of Hensoldt's new offerings not even kissing our shores and you get an underwhelming presence of tactical Euro-optics in the US marketplace right now. Sad but true.

Meanwhile, the influx of Japanese-made tactical scopes is too big and widespread to ignore anymore

Scott


</div></div>

Is this why you don't carry S&B, Premier or Hensoldt?

 

[Rob01]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alpine 338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My S&B was repaired in the USA, as I remember S&B CS saying hurry up and get it shipped to us before the German Tech.s head home for Christmas vacation.</div></div>

Well that must have been a little while ago as there are techs there now in the VA service center who take care of everything. Jerry, Mark, Phil and a few others. Very rare case anything needs to go to Germany. They even build scopes there now so any problems with S&Bs is taken care of as quickly as possible and here in the US.

I agree about the XR reticle. When I had mine it was a mind game having the tiny dots. I have heard more than one person make the wrong hold due to the tiny dot and large hashmark. They dropped the ball in that regards. I also don't like the reticle line thickness. Too thin.

 

[Gray]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

Rob, thanks for the input on the H2CMR, I will check it out. Running a P4F FF in my S&B right now, so maybe it is the right choice for me.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

No problem. I ran the P4F and like it but the .2 mil marks on the horizontal of the H2CMR make holds for wind and movers as well as miling much easier. Also the .2 hollow dots are a great pick up for the eye. It's really worth taking a look at.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

Actual picture at 15x at an 8" steel at 400 yards. If you look between the vertical 2 and 3 mil dots there are .1 mil marks which makes ranging very accurate when needed.

 

[vonbalkenbush]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will tell you my opinion....avoid both right now. I think, for the first time since I've been doing this, the balance of power in the tactical world has shifted to Japan. To wit:

Vortex Razor
Nighforce
Bushnell Elite Tactical
Trijicon TARS
SWFA Super Sniper Variables
Weaver Tactical

This being said that I've yet to lay eyes on the current Kahles or Steiner production offerings...but that will change for SHOT 2013.


I think the other two aforementioned Euro brands have issues. I keep hearing repeated rumors that Premier is in their death throes......S&B, the New Years Day dealer price surprise, combined with the exodus of many talented engineers under the new leadership of the company, raises red flags for me. I've also had reports of recent production S&B scopes having "issues" with tracking and/or zero holding. I've had one customer who bought a 4-16x42 shoot 4 feet high at 100 yards with his new scope. The repair center said the scopes erector springs were collapsed and the scope was thought to be used internally rather than new. WTF? Plus, where are the 1-8x short dots?? Things just don't add up for me.

At any rate, take all of this as just my opinion, but I'm troubled with the future of either brand right now.

Add in the fact of Hensoldt's new offerings not even kissing our shores and you get an underwhelming presence of tactical Euro-optics in the US marketplace right now. Sad but true.

Meanwhile, the influx of Japanese-made tactical scopes is too big and widespread to ignore anymore

Scott


</div></div>

I've run Vortex, NF, Bushnell and Weaver in the past. Optical quality on their high end stuff goes in that order. They are no where near the scope's that are being produced by the Germans in terms of optical capabilities. Granted they are half the price in most cases (except NF F1, and Razor), but you get what you pay for and the German scope are just better.

I agree S&B is getting larger by the day and there are logistical and quality control issues that seem to be surfacing more consistently now and are not subsiding. Their pricing now continues to be above the performance of the actual tool itself and is getting unattractive to even the most affluent shooters and users of their products. You now are paying for a name and not pure performance, welcome to Leupold's problem. This will hurt them down the road.

I don't believe Premier is going away, their product is too good. Someone will pick it up, that is the nature of having a product that is too good to fail. People will continue to seek it out and demand it, even if it's under a different label. Where there is money to be made someone will step in to make it. How much down time will we see? It's hard to say?

That my 2 cents, I'm still running Premiers on my two bolt guns and it's the perfect scope with my only gripe being lack of reticle selection. The Gen II XR is just too fine, but is still very good. Hope that helps...

-SBS

 

[Alpine 338]

Re: Premier 5-25x56 vs S&B 5-25x56 PMII

I've looked through and handled the new Steiners a few times. I think the glass on the Steiners are a little better then Nightforce, but not as good as S&B. I also had the opportunity to look through, and fire a rifle that the new Kahles 6-26 was mounted on, and the short time I had it in front of me, I would place the glass equal to S&B glass.

Today I stopped into a gun shop that's a Premier dealer, and was told that Premier will be starting up production soon , and they are expecting new shipment of scopes here in the near future. Take that for what it's worth.