Press choice and automated powder measuring - looking for thoughts on my situation

[Beezer911]

I’m looking to get into reloading. I’ll be starting with 6.5 CM for my LR target rifle then adding .223, .270 and 30-06. Now, unlike the typical “which kit should I buy” I’m going to piece together a system. I tend to try to buy what I’ll end up wanting vs. buying 3 iterations of the same thing as I move up in quality or function - case in point when I wanted a 10/22 I said screw it and bought a Kidd rather than progressively change out every part of a Ruger.

So - for a press, I’ve been keen on a Forester Co-Ax. They’re a little hard to find. Would I be better actually buying two less expensive presses to help make up for the quick change aspect of the co-ax? Is there a press that gives better consistency, or as good as, (assuming good dies) than the forester? For those who have a forester is there any reason you wouldn’t buy it again? I’m assuming a single stage is the way to go, as I’ve not heard anyone rave about turrect presses for producing god long rang accuracy.

Powder scale / auto trickler - I‘ve also decided that I will end up with an automated powder system so, why not look at it right now. I’ve been looking at the various systems and wanted to know if you all have a favorite that gives a lot of bang for the buck. This is one area where I know you can go nuts accuracy and costs-wise, but it seems like this can be an area where the law of diminishing returns comes in to play. I’m a good shooter, but I’m no world champ and never will be. Given this - what auto powder system gives good automated results without needing the absolute best one can get? Which system do you like and why from a work flow perspective?

Thanks for your thoughts!!

 

[Feniks Technologies]

What’s your budget?

For a press, a Redding t7 with the creedmoor sports turret head upgrade is pretty damn nice. We have one and I’m a big fan. We also have a zero press and a co-ax. If I had to choose between the co-ax and t7 with upgrades, I’d do the t7.

For powder, an auto trickler with fx120 is standard across the industry.

If not, then do a charge master. There is also the matchmaster, but for that price you can get an fx120 setup for not much more.

 

[hafejd30]

I shoot awesome groups both in my general steel/hunting/plinking etc and 1,000 yd fclass on a RCBS Rock Chucker press and RCBS 1500 combo

If I upgraded my setup it be a Area 419 Zero and Autotrickler V3

But I don’t think I’d see truly noticeable results

 

[Feniks Technologies]

And he’s, you can make great ammo with a progressive press. A turret press like the t7 is essentially a single stage just like the co-ax.

Progressives are more expensive and have a learning curve. That’s why you don’t hear as much about them.

 

[Greenmoustache]

I unfortunately went the iterations path with most of my reloading equipment but some of that is new technology and my interests changing. That being said I ended up with an Area 419 Zero press and I’m currently using a RCBS Matchmaster trickler. I’m on the list for the Autotrickler V4 but I may not make the switch because I’ve been very happy with the Matchmaster and been able to get SDs <5 in my 6.5CM and 6 Dasher.

The other thing to buy once cry once on is dies. I’ve probably gone through the most iterations of different dies and now have the SAC sizing and Seating dies and couldn’t be happier.

 

[KZP]

Changing dies on a regular press is still quick. The locking collar preserves the position, just unscrew and screw in the next die. Since you will be running batches of brass through one die, you're only changing a few times per reload session. If it really bugs you, they sell quick change 1/4~ turn adapters.

Watch some youtube videos on automatic powder dispensers. Pick the one in your budget that gets the charge weighed faster. This is one area I would spend more money on as it's a huge time saver compared to other steps. A more expensive turret press isn't going to save you significant time in comparison. Maybe 25 seconds per die change, which you do two or three times depending on your process.

Same with case trimming. Get yourself a motorized trimmer for the time savings. The budget choice is to buy a trimmer head that fits into a power drill, uses the shoulder to index the cutting head. More expensive is a dedicated unit. Those can run $500~ plus

 

[CK1.0]

You don't have to buy anything fancy as far as press is concerned if you don't want to. A Co-Ax would be my last choice (because, JMHO, I loathe the handle ergonomics and don't like the slide in and out die stuff). I wouldn't bother with a turret press either (it only takes 30 seconds to unscrew a die and then screw in a different one).

Just look for something solid that doesn't promise to do too much besides making straight ammo (most on-press priming systems suck, quick-change gadgets are just gadgets and don't really matter, etc).

I use a Lyman Ideal single-stage: small, stupid solid and heavy for its size, dumb simple, they're like ~$100 (cheaper than most dies). I printed a 3" group at 1250 yards earlier today with some ammo I made on it.

For stick powder, you can get an automatic powder measure/dropper that'll drop to within 0.1 grain for around $200-250 these days (Frankford Arsenal, Chargemaster Lite, Lyman, and Hornady both make one too). If you want more precision without the chore of trickling you'll need to get in line for an AutoTrickler 4/A&D 120 setup.

You can also drop Sta-Ball or some other ball powders straight into cases within 0.05 grains if you want to as well.

This is an area that I feel is kind of a lot like shooting: "it's the Indian, not the arrow" as they say.

My buddy used to make crappy ammo with an old RCBS... now he makes crappy ammo on a Zero press, didn't help lol.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

And he’s, you can make great ammo with a progressive press. A turret press like the t7 is essentially a single stage just like the co-ax.

Progressives are more expensive and have a learning curve. That’s why you don’t hear as much about them.

I like my Lyman turret press quite well.(T8) I have all of the calibers I shoot set up, with seating die and full length bushing die for each. It's a pain dealing with the locking screws, but otherwise it's great. I did sand down the spacer washer a bit to make it completely slop free. It's very tight but not hard to turn when you want to turn it.


I'd definitely second the "buy once cry once with dies". I have replaced every die that I started with accept the 223 , because it was a Redding starting out. Buy good quality dies from the get go and save yourself this misfortune. As soon as you learn how to load well, you will absolutely want good dies, so don't buy the cheaper ones at all.

 

[hafejd30]

I’ll second the dies within reason

If we’re talking rcbs vs Redding then go redding

However, I still think when used properly the Lee Collet die is one of the best dies on the market. It is also one of the cheapest

Lee collet and Redding body is a great combo

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I would get the Zero if you want a turret. You can still make good ammo with a T7 (what I use) but there is deflection and runout that is measurable. Invest in good dies as well. Redding and RCBS bushing dies are ok, but Widden/Wilson are a higher rung of quality.


For PRS it doesnt matter but if you are shooting fclass/benchrest/ELR, I would go with a Co-Ax, Zero or arbor press.

 

[Beezer911]

I would get the Zero if you want a turret. You can still make good ammo with a T7 (what I use) but there is deflection and runout that is measurable. Invest in good dies as well. Redding and RCBS bushing dies are ok, but Widden/Wilson are a higher rung of quality.


For PRS it doesnt matter but if you are shooting fclass/benchrest/ELR, I would go with a Co-Ax, Zero or arbor press.

Good point - at most I’ll shoot PRS. I just don’t see myself going FClass and certainly not bench rest. Outside of that, my needs will be banging steel at distance or predator hunting. Deer hunting is all within 100 yards so factory ammo is more than accurate enough for that, much less dialed in hand loads, good press or not.

This is exactly why I asked - I needed to calibrate my need with available equipment. Sounds like I like a chargemaster (or something thereabouts) is fine and a good single stage provided I pony up for good dies, which was always my plan.

 

[Beezer911]

I unfortunately went the iterations path with most of my reloading equipment but some of that is new technology and my interests changing. That being said I ended up with an Area 419 Zero press and I’m currently using a RCBS Matchmaster trickler. I’m on the list for the Autotrickler V4 but I may not make the switch because I’ve been very happy with the Matchmaster and been able to get SDs <5 in my 6.5CM and 6 Dasher.

The other thing to buy once cry once on is dies. I’ve probably gone through the most iterations of different dies and now have the SAC sizing and Seating dies and couldn’t be happier.

Thanks for the info. The auto trickler is the one area I’m concerned that spending way more may not produce enough difference (for me) to warrant the price increase. Sounds like I’ll dial back a tad here.

 

[Beezer911]

You don't have to buy anything fancy as far as press is concerned if you don't want to. A Co-Ax would be my last choice (because, JMHO, I loathe the handle ergonomics and don't like the slide in and out die stuff). I wouldn't bother with a turret press either (it only takes 30 seconds to unscrew a die and then screw in a different one).

Just look for something solid that doesn't promise to do too much besides making straight ammo (most on-press priming systems suck, quick-change gadgets are just gadgets and don't really matter, etc).

I use a Lyman Ideal single-stage: small, stupid solid and heavy for its size, dumb simple, they're like ~$100 (cheaper than most dies). I printed a 3" group at 1250 yards earlier today with some ammo I made on it.

For stick powder, you can get an automatic powder measure/dropper that'll drop to within 0.1 grain for around $200-250 these days (Frankford Arsenal, Chargemaster Lite, Lyman, and Hornady both make one too). If you want more precision without the chore of trickling you'll need to get in line for an AutoTrickler 4/A&D 120 setup.

You can also drop Sta-Ball or some other ball powders straight into cases within 0.05 grains if you want to as well.

This is an area that I feel is kind of a lot like shooting: "it's the Indian, not the arrow" as they say.

My buddy used to make crappy ammo with an old RCBS... now he makes crappy ammo on a Zero press, didn't help lol.

I know what you mean. My buddy loves when I help him reload because his ammo comes out a lot more consistent. One of us is very process / reliability / consistency focused and the other, not so much. I can make good ammo on his basic rock chucker set, it just takes awhile.

 

[CK1.0]

I know what you mean. My buddy loves when I help him reload because his ammo comes out a lot more consistent. One of us is very process / reliability / consistency focused and the other, not so much. I can make good ammo on his basic rock chucker set, it just takes awhile.

Exactly. It's the process that really matters.

When it comes to reloading stuff, I feel like there are areas where maybe one needs to spend more to get more, but a lot of this stuff hasn't changed in 50+ years (a Rock Chucker is a perfect example, nothing fancy, but has made mountains of great ammo over the years, enough so where they still make them pretty much same as they always have). Like mentioned above, good dies probably matter more than the press, but that doesn't have to always necessarily equal being expensive either: I have $100+ dies I like/use and also have some ~$20 Lee dies I like/use too.

A Lee universal decapping die is like $10, and it's arguably as good as anything else at any price at what it does.

 

[slm9s]

I started loading in separate steps - size 50 cases, then prime 50 cases, etc...

Now, I have a little assembly line, instead of one press, I have multiple presses (Lee classic cast - cheap and SOLID, and can load 50bmg) lined up.

I have the FL or collet sizer in one press and the seater in the next press. I hit "go" on the chargemaster, size/deprime on one press, prime with K&M tool, pour powder with funnel/pan combo, seat bullet on the next press, and by the time I've deprimed the next case the chargemaster is ready with the next load. Its very efficient and smooth.

I actually have three Lee presses and one RCBS big boss II as it was my first press so I keep using it to seat non-fifty rounds. But I use the 3 Lee's to load 50bmg, one to size, one to prime, one to seat.

Good luck.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Good point - at most I’ll shoot PRS. I just don’t see myself going FClass and certainly not bench rest. Outside of that, my needs will be banging steel at distance or predator hunting. Deer hunting is all within 100 yards so factory ammo is more than accurate enough for that, much less dialed in hand loads, good press or not.

This is exactly why I asked - I needed to calibrate my need with available equipment. Sounds like I like a chargemaster (or something thereabouts) is fine and a good single stage provided I pony up for good dies, which was always my plan.

Two pieces of gear I would recommend no matter what you do, Is a ATV3/4 and Henderson Trimmer. Both will make your lives MUCH easier, make much better ammo, and speed up the time reloading. You can cut alot of corners but those two products are worth every penny.

I run the CM Lite and my buddy has one and there are serious issues with the throws. He got a 95 ES today with his GT throwing Varget. Thats not going to happen with the ATV. Everyone I know who runs them gets super fast throws and sub 5 SD's.

 

[r.tenorio671]

...if you shoot auto loading pistols you will eventually start loading for them as well. I suggest getting a progressive. You can always turn a progressive into a single stage by deactivating the indexing mechanism so the SAME turret head hole and SAME shell plate hole are used for each and every round you produce, just have to swap the particular die required for that step in the process, same you would do on the coax.

...if you go progressive, get a brand/model that allows FULL AUTOMATION with the addition of sub-modules that automate/monitor the processes.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Runout doesn’t matter for F and BR either.

That’s why you never see any of them with a concentricity gauge.

Fairly meaningless measurement. Clearance around freebore is ~ 0.0005. It’s almost impossible to not have at least that much runout. Which means the bullet is always touching and get straightened out when chambered.

So, .010 is the same as .001 runout.

 

[Steel head]

You can load some amazing ammunition on very rudimentary equipment but don’t skimp on dies.

Really I think you’re buying speed, ease or convenience with premium equipment.

Personally I wouldn’t do without a turret press ,T7 or areas 419.

I shoot awesome groups both in my general steel/hunting/plinking etc and 1,000 yd fclass on a RCBS Rock Chucker press and RCBS 1500 combo

If I upgraded my setup it be a Area 419 Zero and Autotrickler V3

But I don’t think I’d see truly noticeable results

The result I can almost guarantee is a giggle when that V3 kicks out almost 60 grains of R26 in 6-8 seconds and not much longer for almost 100 grains of N570.

I can’t say I noticed a substantial change in my ES or vertical over my old powder setup.

 

[Beezer911]

I started loading in separate steps - size 50 cases, then prime 50 cases, etc...

Now, I have a little assembly line, instead of one press, I have multiple presses (Lee classic cast - cheap and SOLID, and can load 50bmg) lined up.

I have the FL or collet sizer in one press and the seater in the next press. I hit "go" on the chargemaster, size/deprime on one press, prime with K&M tool, pour powder with funnel/pan combo, seat bullet on the next press, and by the time I've deprimed the next case the chargemaster is ready with the next load. Its very efficient and smooth.

I actually have three Lee presses and one RCBS big boss II as it was my first press so I keep using it to seat non-fifty rounds. But I use the 3 Lee's to load 50bmg, one to size, one to prime, one to seat.

Good luck.

This is what I was working through in my head - multiple presses in a line to get a single piece flow set-up going. I may be able to get a used Lee or two off of folks at the club who want to upgrade. Something to think about....

 

[Average guy]

I just bought a charge master link after my old charge master 1500 took a dump. I’m very impressed with the link. I have yet to have an over charge. I feel it’s a good machine.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

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I went with the Forester Co-Ax because that's what everyone was recommending several years ago. I have a Chargemaster but use another small digital scale to confirm powder weights after the Chargemaster finishes dropping a load. It really doesn't add any extra time because I begin a throw with the Chargemaster after dumping the previous throw on the secondary scale and confirm while the Chargemaster is dropping powder. If they match, then it goes in the case. I'm in line for the V4.

SAC sizing die and a SAC "The" seating die. "The" seating die, while really expensive, can seat all bullets in a case family so you end up saving money in the long run IF you are loading several calibers in the .30 caliber case family. i.e. 6GT, 6.5 CM, 6 CM, 6 Dasher, 6 BR, 6 BRA, etc. I've used the Whidden Micro seating die and sizing die for 6.5CM and that was a very nice die set up for not a lot of money. More than the basic dies but less than the SAC dies.

I only load in small batches and spread case prep over several work flows. This is where I can save money but not time. I use the LE Wilson case trimmer and this is also compatible with the case mouth 30* deburring tool. It's slow but very good.

I save time being able to de-prime and size in the same step. Many others prefer to de-prime first, then size, then neck mandrel. I do all in one step using the SAC sizing die and a special mandrel they set up for me that also de-primes at the same time. You'll have to call and ask as I don't believe it's on the website yet. If ever. I also use the priming tool on the Forester. Does not seem like this is a popular option but I like it and it doesn't take me much time to prime 50-100 pieces of brass using it. It also has a lot of leverage which makes priming really easy.

Most good tooling while expensive will sell quickly and for most of retail when you're in need of selling so it only makes sense to get the high quality tooling unless you're on a tight budget. I'm planning on upgrading my case trimmer at some point, but that's only to speed up the process, not the quality of the outcome.

Quality of outcome is more dependent on you and your process than equipment. If you don't make the effort you're going to get shitty ammo regardless of equipment.

I'm not stating that what I use and mention/suggest above is the way, it's just what I've been using and have had decent results.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Also, you'll need a quality chronograph in order to actually measure your results. I think the only two real choices are between the Magnetospeed and Lab Radar. The Lab Radar is quite a bit more than the MS but not any more "accurate". Some people prefer the LR while others prefer the MS. Really depends on your use case and budget. I don't think either is a bad or wrong choice. I use the MS due to cost and ease of set up. Mostly cost though. I prefer a chassis mount to the strap but both give accurate speeds. The chassis mount eliminates POI change due to the strap mount directly to the barrel/suppressor.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Thanks for the info. The auto trickler is the one area I’m concerned that spending way more may not produce enough difference (for me) to warrant the price increase. Sounds like I’ll dial back a tad here.

Don't rule out the convenience factor(s) with the Autotrickler/FX120i. There were no other choices at the time and I ended up chasing all the Revs/Mods on a V2 that Adam was making over the course of development and I ended up with a V3 and all the Area 419 mods. I had a V4 on order (after much consternation) a couple of months ago, but I ended up canceling it for various reasons. The two primary reasons were leadtime on the V4 and the fact that I am getting great results with the V3.

I've been delighted with my V3/FX120i. Maybe, just wait a while on the Autotrickler for now and pick up a used V3 with all the trimmings. The used V3's are fetching some pretty good coin right now, but that will change when Adam catches up on production of the V4. IIRC, the V3's are either out of production now, or very close to it. Adam's a great guy with a great product and it's fun to see a guy like him develop a new product like he has and be successful with it.

As far as a press, if I were starting from scratch, I'd just buy a Zero. Cry once.

 

[Average guy]

Also, you'll need a quality chronograph in order to actually measure your results. I think the only two real choices are between the Magnetospeed and Lab Radar. The Lab Radar is quite a bit more than the MS but not any more "accurate". Some people prefer the LR while others prefer the MS. Really depends on your use case and budget. I don't think either is a bad or wrong choice. I use the MS due to cost and ease of set up. Mostly cost though. I prefer a chassis mount to the strap but both give accurate speeds. The chassis mount eliminates POI change due to the strap mount directly to the barrel/suppressor.

I agree 100 percent. A magneto speed is a very affordable way to verify results of reloading. Just remember if you are far exceeding book velocity you are probably in an over pressure situation.

 

[Beezer911]

I agree 100 percent. A magneto speed is a very affordable way to verify results of reloading. Just remember if you are far exceeding book velocity you are probably in an over pressure situation.

I’l get a chrono at some point, but I’ve got access to a number of magneto speeds at the club so I’m covered for now. Good call on the velocity - I plan to start conservative and creep up on speed vs go nuts and have to cut back.

 

[Average guy]

I’l get a chrono at some point, but I’ve got access to a number of magneto speeds at the club so I’m covered for now. Good call on the velocity - I plan to start conservative and creep up on speed vs go nuts and have to cut back.

Since I’m here I’ll give my 2 cents on equipment. I run a 6 station Lyman press and a charge master link. My does are a mix between RCBS, Redding, Hornady and Forster. One thing I do in my process is I mandrel all my necks after sizing.