pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

[diego-ted]

I have been having problems with pressure. The rifle is a Savage BA 110. Here are the facts. I originally started developing a load using once fired Lapua brass that I full sized and H-1000 powder and SMK 300gr rounds set to an OAL of 3.681. I had worked up loads from 88 grains to 92.5 and shot them without a problem. I then loaded about 40 rounds using the above mentioned components at 91.5 gr. I fired 30 of the rounds without problems, outside temp was about 70*.

On another day, outside temp was about 59*, I fired 3 of the remaining 10 rounds without incident, on the next 7 rounds I had a very sticky bolt, three of the rounds had to have the brass beat out of the chamber with a rod. I then decided to go back to the drawing board. I loaded about 25 rounds of NEW Lapua brass with 86-90 grains of the H-1000. I went out and started firing the new rounds and did notice the beginning of pressure signs above 90 grains, I had some cupping of the primer. I decided to stick to the lower load which produced sub moa groups of about ½ inch. I decided on a load of 88 grains and neck sized some Hornady brass. I had a sticky bolt right off the bat so I did not fire any more of the rounds.

When I got home I measured the OAL of the cases which were right at 2.722 or so, just a hair under max. I measured my chamber and it miced out at around 2.750, so I know the cases were not hitting. Now I know some have said the Hornady brass is junk and needs to be full sized every time. However, when I first encountered the sticky bolt I was using once fired, full sized Lapua brass, not to mention at a load much lower then the original batch which was loaded up to 92.5 grains.

I am at a loss, I am going to go back and start over with full sized brass both Lapua and Hornady and will start working up loads. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thx Diego

 

[turbo54]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

It sounds like you're encountering pressure earlier and earlier.

Is it possible your throat/bore is accumulating some fouling? Carbon or copper? I can't say I've encountered this before, but the fact pressure is occurring sooner strikes me as a key point.

Another thought: Any chance your scale is drifting?

Yet another: Possible that now its getting cooler/drier, your effective powder charge is increasing? 92gr of "moist"/humid powder may not be as energetic as 88gr of dead-dry powder.

Just some thinking points.

 

[cali_tz]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

On my Rem 700 338LM rifle, I learned I had to full length resize the brass every time. Neck resizing just won't do. Until I full length resized the brass was too large and the bolt would barely close. I full length resize for my other 338LM rifle too.

As opposed to my Rem 700 308 which I only neck resize every time, and once every few reloads I will case trim. Never full length resized them even once and I am on fourth or fifth reload of that 308 brass.

I am not a user of H-1000 for my 338LMs, but I notice that with N570 I am getting the highest MVs and no signs of pressure or sticky bolt. Whereas with Retumbo it seemed to burn too fast for this platform and cause the brass to stay expanded a bit more. I switched over the N560, and then N570 when it became available. Between these three powders, it seems N570 is the clearly the optimal for my rifles.

 

[SPAK]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

How are the rounds on chambering? Are they hard to close? Are they really easy to close?

Headspace either too much or too little can also present itself as pressure problems.

How many rounds down the tube? Last time it was cleaned?

If your throat is severely eroded that might cause some increasing pressure as well.

 

[BGE541]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

If you dont mind me asking what method are you using to find your "load" It looks like you searching for the perfect round in a 4 grain "spread" On different days with different enviro's things are going to change unless you use the OCW method. I know there are alot of different ideas, ways opinions out there but esp when your dealing with a larger rifle i.e. 338 and high pressures you want to always know you have a safe load. Are you stepping the loads up in say .4 gr "steps".

Cleaning, as others have mentioned would be important. Maybe your loads are ppushing your brass and theyre going to need to be annealed soon... Make your brass last (at that price!) FWIW Are you getting ejector swipe?

 

[Nimzoblanca]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Another idea is to bite the bullet and buy a box or 2 of Lapua factory 300g ammo to see if you still get the sticky bolt problem. Costs around $60 for a box of 10, but might provide useful info. Good luck.

 

[diego-ted]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Thx guys for the help. Before I reloaded any of the rounds I chambered the empty brass, all the brass chambered with minimal effort. I mean the bolt did not fall in place but it did not take much effort to close the bolt, this is true with the full rounds as well.

The rifle has about 200 rounds down the pipe. I clean the rifle after every
outing; however, I have not cleaned the chamber as well as I could have, I will really need to clean it better in the future.

As for finding my load, I spent quite a bit of time researching the different loads for this particular rifle. People have used as little as 84gr to 94gr of H-1000, I started at the lower end and worked my way up. I had decided on the 91.5 because that is where the groups were the tightest, I was going to fine tune the loads but this problem came up and I have not gotten to that point. The biggest mystery is that I have shot up to 92.5gr with no issue, then I have pressure as low as 88. The latest rounds of 87gr did not cause a sticky bolt? My buddy lent me some rounds he reloaded both H-1000 and Retumbo both loaded to about 87gr, my rifle did not have a problem with those rounds.

Diego

 

[SPAK]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

I've been rereading your original post trying to think of what might be causing your pressure signs.

Have you checked your headspace by any chance?

It really does sound like a possible fouling problem or throat erosion even though you don't have a lot of rounds down the tube. Are you the original owner of the rifle?? How are you cleaning the bore?

The other thing is, why did you switch to hornady brass after doing the second load workup with Lapua? That right there is probably not a good idea simply based on possiblity of differences in case capacity between brands. Although that by itself shouldn't be the cause of your pressure problem if your within the published loads.

 

[diego-ted]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

77 thanks for the help. To answer your questions, I have not checked the headspace, Yesterday I cleaned the chamber with a mop and bore cleaner, I did not get a lot of carbon. I definitely got some gunk, carbon, brass shavings ect at the locking lugs. The rifle is new so the only rounds down the tube, I put there. I used the Horniday brass because I had it and brass cost $$. Others with the same rifle have noted problems without full sizing the Hornidy brass. 88 grs well below Hodgkin’s Max recommendation.?

 

[bcrich]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Damn, that gets me nervous because I have the 110 fcp (338) and have yet to work up a load with lapua brass,300g smk's,scenars,berger hybrids and H1000. hope you find your problem so you can help me!

 

[shoepop]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Had an issue like yours with my Sako 338 LM this sounds crazy but make sure ALL the case lube is cleaned off brass. It dawned on me after got back from range so next day went out with left over rounds. The ones that were not completly clean heavy bolt lift, big pressure signs. Wiped some squeaky clean no sign, tried not clean once more big time pressure again.

 

[diego-ted]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Had an issue like yours with my Sako 338 LM this sounds crazy but make sure ALL the case lube is cleaned off brass. It dawned on me after got back from range so next day went out with left over rounds. The ones that were not completly clean heavy bolt lift, big pressure signs. Wiped some squeaky clean no sign, tried not clean once more big time pressure again. </div></div>

Mark, I did not think of that one, but now that you mention it, I can feel a little slickness to the cases? I had read after sizing to through the cases back in the vibrator or a bit to remove any lube. I thought this might distort the neck so I just wiped them off with a cloth, I might need to use some sort of solvent to make sure there is no lube? Can't hurt.

diego

 

[KT35]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

After full length sizing I always take a little denatured alcohol and put it on a rag and wipe each piece of brass of so there is no grease left on the cases.

KT

 

[mdmp5]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Diego, I size my cases with imperial wax, then rub the cases with an old shirt moistened with acetone. This is enough effort to remove an adequate amount of lube. If you don't do this, pressure signs appear due to:
1) The head slamming back into the bolt due to the lack of friction between the body and the chamber
2) Incompressible material (lube) between the case and the chamber, decreasing the volume of the chamber

 

[diego-ted]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Dang sure worth a shot, I will post results after this weekend. wish me luck.

Diego

 

[turbo54]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Good luck. Kudos to Mark S for mentioning this. I'm confident it's your problem.

 

[cali_tz]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

I use RCBS case lube which is water soluble. After sizing etc... I simply wash the brass in hot water for 15 seconds and it's gone. Of course you do have to let the cases dry over night. There's almost no amount of air pressure hosing that will dry hundreds of them out so that you can reload right away.

 

[Dirty D]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diego-ted</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Had an issue like yours with my Sako 338 LM this sounds crazy but make sure ALL the case lube is cleaned off brass. It dawned on me after got back from range so next day went out with left over rounds. The ones that were not completly clean heavy bolt lift, big pressure signs. Wiped some squeaky clean no sign, tried not clean once more big time pressure again. </div></div>

Mark, I did not think of that one, but now that you mention it, I can feel a little slickness to the cases? I had read after sizing to through the cases back in the vibrator or a bit to remove any lube. I thought this might distort the neck so I just wiped them off with a cloth, I might need to use some sort of solvent to make sure there is no lube? Can't hurt.
diego </div></div>

Go down to Harbor Freight and buy one of their ultrasonic parts cleaners for about $29 here http://www.harborfreight.com/ultrasonic-cleaner-3305.html after I resize, trim etc I give my cases about 10 minutes in one of these with really hot water and no additives. Clean brass every time with no residues.

 

[shoepop]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

dt, also make sure your chamber is squeaky clean/bone dry.

 

[KT35]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

+1^^^

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Diego,
A lubed chamber or case will cause increased bolt thrust when fired. However, I would not put all my eggs in that basket. I might also recommend checking out your cartridge-length-to-engaugement, by using a Stoney Point OAL gauge. I suspect you MIGHT find that you've got some lead problems that are undiagnosed. Just a thought.

 

[diego-ted]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Diego,
A lubed chamber or case will cause increased bolt thrust when fired. However, I would not put all my eggs in that basket. I might also recommend checking out your cartridge-length-to-engaugement, by using a Stoney Point OAL gauge. I suspect you MIGHT find that you've got some lead problems that are undiagnosed. Just a thought.

</div></div>
My OAL is 50K from the lands? My cases are about the same short from the end of the chamber? (see 1st post)

thx guys keep the sugg coming.

diego

 

[CanSniper]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Have you checked velocity? Would be a good indicator for pressure. I think you will be suprised how fast you are pushin them 300s out of the savage. 91.5 grns of h1000 was 2850fps out of my ba110, which is pretty fast for a 26 in barrel. I think the savage is just a tight chamber. My buddys 93.5 grn load of retumbo (which is fine out of his remmy) locked up my bolt and blew a primer. 90.8 grns h1000 is still 2800fps in my savage.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Diego,

Not to push, but WHEN was that .050" measurement taken? Was it before the pressure problems started, or after? Have you very recently taken those measurements? Just for S & G, can you run that number again?

Another thing - Have you been able to check and confirm your headspace with both go and no-go?

Next, can you confirm your scale is correct AND consistent? Have you got a check-weight?

Just suggestions, I mean no offense.

 

[Jason Gebo]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Hi diego, I'm having the exact same problem that you are with my Barrett 98B. I'm using Norma and Lapua brass with WLRM primers, 103 grains of Hodgdon US869 with a 300gr Sierra BTHP. I believe that if the round is chambering properly with or without bullet after resizing that the "resizing" process was done correctly. However, after reading some of the suggests that a lot of fellow shooters on here have suggested that the pressure may be too much from the load I'm using. I will be trying a minimum load for this powder and bullet since I don't believe there is a lot of experience with this powder and caliber out there yet.

If I get some positive results, I'll be sure and post them here. Good luck to you and thanks to you other guys that have put out some great suggests here.

Zeb

 

[matthias]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

damn i have had similar problems with my rifle after 5 reloads in my 110ba. lapua brass 300smk over 90.5 of h1000. oal 3.735 oal puts me 5 off the lands

-got new lapua brass fixed problem.
-5 reloads later problem has come back
-throat moved about 1.5-2 thousandths over the last 900 rounds
-gun has been cleaned on a regular basis about every fifty or so shots
-mild pressure signs , primer flow shiny spots etc
-average of 2778 fps with load listed above
-rcbs powder trickler and scale combo calibrated each use following manuals diractions
-no lube on the cases or in the chamber
-headspace is good , checked with pacific tool and guage guages

corrective action i have yet to try
-using a redding body die, was recomended on another thread waiting on mail
-annealing cases , tried once could not tell difference maybe i did it wrong . sending some cases out for annealing service

hope this helps

 

[Jason Gebo]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Ok, a quick update from what I did today.

I loaded one round as such:
Norma brass full length sized, loaded and unloaded from the chamber smoothly with and without bullet; Case length was well in spec;
99grn of Hodgdon US869
300gr MK BTHP
OAL 3.600" per manual recommendation
WLRM primer

After firing the bolt still jammed. I think there is something going on with the shoulder expanding foward and pushing the neck up. It's very hard to tell. One thing I noticed this time was that there was an impression on the bottom of the casing of the ejector pin and the back of the bolt where the extractor is. This would imply to me that there is too much movement in the chamber. I'm at a loss of how to fix this at the moment. Anyone got some idea's??

Zeb

 

[71firebird400]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Forgive me if I missed it anywhere, but has anyone taken a sharpie to a fired case and tried to chamber it? The marker should smear where it's contacting the chamber, it would be interesting to know if it's the shoulder or the body of the case that is giving you guys issues.

 

[SPAK]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebinator338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, a quick update from what I did today.

I loaded one round as such:
Norma brass full length sized, loaded and unloaded from the chamber smoothly with and without bullet; Case length was well in spec;
99grn of Hodgdon US869
300gr MK BTHP
OAL 3.600" per manual recommendation
WLRM primer

After firing the bolt still jammed. I think there is something going on with the shoulder expanding foward and pushing the neck up. It's very hard to tell. One thing I noticed this time was that there was an impression on the bottom of the casing of the ejector pin and the back of the bolt where the extractor is. This would imply to me that there is too much movement in the chamber. I'm at a loss of how to fix this at the moment. Anyone got some idea's??

Zeb
</div></div>

Sounds like excessive headspace or increased pressure....

Excessive headspace can happen if you're over full length sizing your brass or your chamber is too long. In either condition you can get the ejector marks. The other condition is if your loads are really hot, you will get those marks as well... Chambering empty brass or loaded rounds alone will not tell you if you have excessive headspace. You need to measure your brass to the shoulder with a bump guage before and after firing and see what the difference is....If it's within spec for your cartridge, then the marks are most likely from overpressure.

Some rifles you will see the ejector mark even mild loads if the ejector is rough, but they shouldn't be all that prominent or shiny.. Depends on the rifle. Most of the time a shiny ejector mark is indicative of either excessive headspace or pressure. If you see the EJ makrs or smearing on the case head that should be a red flag that something is not right....If it's shiny, it's not good and I would definitely proceed with caution and figure out what's going on with your rifle and loads.

 

[Jason Gebo]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Thanks Frogman, I appreciate the help. I'll be getting a bump guage ASAP to figure this out. Unfortunately the last load was a light one. Minimum load with this powder and bullet is 98.5 gr and I used 99 gr.

I think you are onto something with the headspacing. I bought brand new Lapua brand brass a while back and have fired them about 2 times each and they don't have a problem with this bullet and powder.

The brass that seems to be giving me the issue is the once fired stuff I bought from Barrett. The first time I full length sized them, they would chamber VERY hard. I then realized that I wasn't going in far enough with my press, the shoulders weren't being resized. After adjusting it I can see the marks on the shoulder and they would chamber properly after that. HOWEVER, I now have an unloading problem with this brass. Now here's the deal with the brass, it's a mix of Norma and Lapua brand, both of which are supposed to be good to go. It's an RCBS full length sizing die. Do I need a different once perhaps?

I've measured from the bass of the shell to the top and bottom of the shoulders using my calipers and I'm not getting a major difference in length, couple thousands or so. Perhaps the bump guage will reveal more? I've never used one before.

I do have the smearing marks from the ejector though, I knew that was a bad sign.

 

[Jason Gebo]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frogman77</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebinator338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, a quick update from what I did today.

I loaded one round as such:
Norma brass full length sized, loaded and unloaded from the chamber smoothly with and without bullet; Case length was well in spec;
99grn of Hodgdon US869
300gr MK BTHP
OAL 3.600" per manual recommendation
WLRM primer

After firing the bolt still jammed. I think there is something going on with the shoulder expanding foward and pushing the neck up. It's very hard to tell. One thing I noticed this time was that there was an impression on the bottom of the casing of the ejector pin and the back of the bolt where the extractor is. This would imply to me that there is too much movement in the chamber. I'm at a loss of how to fix this at the moment. Anyone got some idea's??

Zeb
</div></div>

Sounds like excessive headspace or increased pressure....

Excessive headspace can happen if you're over full length sizing your brass or your chamber is too long. In either condition you can get the ejector marks. The other condition is if your loads are really hot, you will get those marks as well... Chambering empty brass or loaded rounds alone will not tell you if you have excessive headspace. You need to measure your brass to the shoulder with a bump guage before and after firing and see what the difference is....If it's within spec for your cartridge, then the marks are most likely from overpressure.

Some rifles you will see the ejector mark even mild loads if the ejector is rough, but they shouldn't be all that prominent or shiny.. Depends on the rifle. Most of the time a shiny ejector mark is indicative of either excessive headspace or pressure. If you see the EJ makrs or smearing on the case head that should be a red flag that something is not right....If it's shiny, it's not good and I would definitely proceed with caution and figure out what's going on with your rifle and loads. </div></div>

Frogman, just did a quick eyeball measurement with my dial calipers on a functional Lapua brand brass from the bass to the shoulder. Not quite 2.190"; Measured a troublesome Lapua brand brass(once fired from Barrett) and it's close to 2.175". I'm eyeballing this as best I can but it seems like the shoulders are too low. Now I'm thinking that will make the angle wrong too right? How do I correct this?

 

[SPAK]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

There's a .025" difference in the two brass sizes in base to shoulder. Are these prior to sizing???

What does a fired case measure to the shoulder??? A bump gauge will be more accurate but if you have a .40 cal pistol case that will work in a pinch..

If your loaded round has .025" of excessive headspace when fired it can very well give you the ejector marks smearing and the difficult extraction eveven with normal pressured loads... I'm willing to bet that's your issue.

Either the once fired brass for whatever reason was sized way too small for your chamber or your chamber was cut too long, or maybe both. The fact that your other brass works ok makes me lean toward a brass problem.

Either way, have your chamber headspace checked on some gauges to be sure.

If it is a brass issue, don't use that brass or fire form them first with a really light load. You might need to use a faster burning powder to be safe.

 

[Jason Gebo]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Yes these are prior to sizing and after some more measuring, they look to be the same. Just needed some better light to see.

I believe you are correct though that the headspacing is screwed up with this brass. Now I just need to know what tools I need to correct them. Reading up on it now. Everything I look for for .338 Lapua is sold out everywhere LOL!

Thanks for your help and tips Frogman, it got me pointed in the right direction.

Zeb

 

[SPAK]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

No problem...

Once you determine that your chamber headspace is within spec, you need to PROPERLY set up your full length sizing die. You only want to bump the shoulders back .001-.002" not much more than that.

The other component in your brass problems is the base of the chamber that they were fired in. IF the brass that you bought was fired in a chamber that had a base dimension much larger than yours, even with full length sizing it may or may not be able to resize the base portion down enough to fit your chamber properly at the base...Best bet is just ditch the bad brass and start over with new brass that works.

 

[Jason Gebo]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Ok, I just got off the phone with a technician from Barrett firearms. One quick way he said to check to see if my full length sizing is being done is to drop a known good case in and one that's been fired and resized into the chamber by hand. If it's been sized properly it should fall right back out. Well guess what, it appears that my full length sizing die isn't taking care of the case headspacing. My die IS adjusted properly, I think it's a bad die. I can't get the shell to move in any further than it is physically allowed to go. What do you think I should try at this point? A Redding die?

 

[sinister]

Re: pressure, Hard bolt lift and STUCK CASE 338 Lapua

Headspacing will be critical for the sticky chamber in question.

It's been noted on several sites that Lapua brass is harder at the head end than the neck and shoulders, which helps mitigate some of the symptoms of case swelling at the bases.

I saw problems using Norma and particularly Hornady brass (as its MUCH softer) in two separate Savage 110s that would not shoot handloads using once-fired brass from a TRG-42 and an SRS (using either Forster or Redding full-length and S sizing dies).

Redding has a special prototype die used to re-size the bases of .338 Lapua cases back to close-to-original specs (much like a small-base die). It requires lubing with Imperial Sizing Die Wax, running the case completely through the die, and then normal re-sizing.