Price Increases?????

D

deadly0311

Tacticool Ninja
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 2, 2009
4,871
517
Birmingham, AL
#1
Maybe its just me, but I look around here and see things that are very suprising. When in the hell did the prices of all these new products decided they needed to be damn high? 500 dollars for a scope mount, close to 3K for a chassis, rifles north of 5K, when is it gonna stop?

I like cool and expensive shit just as much as the next guy, but come on really
 
#2
Re: Price Increases?????

I don't know where that's coming from either. The KRG (Kinetic Research Group) makes a good rifle chassis [now a folding model available] for $~1300- that is as cool as any chassis out there, and I've also seen a $2500 chassis and it struck me the same way as over priced

I use Leupold MKIV rings and get them for around $90. I bought Larue SPR mounts until they became $200 parts- at $150 they made sense. I wouldn't touch a $500 mounting system. that's just unreasonably high.

I don't know if it has any relationship, but Rolex responded to the economic decline by nearly doubling prices- they decided that a certain percentage of people had to have Rolex watches and they were not going to lose money- they would just sell less watches for the same amount of money.
 
#3
Re: Price Increases?????

Have you gone grocery shopping lately? Or put gas in your car?

I know it's not gun parts which has prices that aren't nearly as likely to subject to political price fluctuations but think it illustrates the economic state of things... Your gun parts going up is most likely due to a true supply and demand curve.

Keep in mind that an outrageous price for a part can denote the company's inability/unwillingness to actually produce said part and is often times simple advertising...
 
#4
Re: Price Increases?????

As long as there are people willing to piss away their money on overpriced gear, it will continue to be sold. The prices being asked for some things are nothing short of asinine such as $500 for an optic mount or $2500 for a rifle chassis.

It's almost as if they price stuff that high because they know there's a select group of the market who will work themselves into a frenzy to be the first to have the latest piece of equipment that also claims to be the greatest. If the prices were something like $300 and $1500 then maybe...MAYBE...the price could be a little easier to justify.

If you have money to burn, be my guest. Regardless of how much money I make there are some things that are ridiculously overpriced and I won't support their inflated prices with my wallet.

But...hey...to each their own. If you like it and you feel it's worth the price hike...buy it.
 
#5
Re: Price Increases?????

Austin, you sold hensoldt, none of this should shock you. price of materials, price of labor, everything is going up. gun cost doesn't bother me, ammo cost going up will be a problem eventually
 
#6
Re: Price Increases?????

Hear hear. I had this conversation just last week with a friend. It's out of control, and a large part of why I don't shoot much anymore. It's rapidly becoming a wealthy mans game, so I'm just gonna lock the safe with my antiquated gear and enjoy shooting with my friends every now and then.

That is, when I can afford ammo...
 
#7
Re: Price Increases?????

A lot of it is going to have to do with

Supply and Demand
Cost of materials
Machining costs
tooling costs
labor involved in programming

and then the Spuhr mounts come from overseas so that adds dollars as well. Some of it is outrageous but they know people will pay for it is the thing. Walk around SHOT show once and you will face palm yourself at some peoples justification for their pricing.
 
#8
Re: Price Increases?????

I get the Supply and Demand thing, I get the economy is in the shitter. But really, how can you justify some of these prices. Jay, you are correct I used to sell Hensoldts, so I do kind of understand it. Whats ridiculous is some of this stuff is old technology with a few bells and whistles and it is labeled "unlike no other" at the end of the day, a scope mount is a scope mount is a scope mount. There are two rings that hold the scope and attach itself to a rifle.

But to hear that the astronomical prices are due to Materials, tooling, and labor is kind of ridiculous.
 
#9
Re: Price Increases?????

Initially the price needs to pay for the cost of making the tooling in order to fabricate whatever parts and such... They have to recoup their money invested to bring the product to market.

So, a lot of the pricing in the beginning is to pay for the "set up fee" if you will.

Not making excuses for them but, it's kind of like the set up fee that a screen printing company charges to your first order of shirts in order to pay for the "tooling".
 
#11
Re: Price Increases?????

Yeah... The price will come down after the initial set up, and once the product pays for itself, just like Accuracy International! 20 year old platform with no significant changes, now bringing more than ever...

Or how about the AR platform.... It's enjoyed it's bicentennial, and $2500+ AR's are rampant. I'm sure they're still paying for the tooling though.

Welcome to the new buisness model. Gouge gouge gouge. People will pay it.
 
#12
Re: Price Increases?????

To say there is little inflation in the US economy is to listen to the government's numbers that EXCLUDES gas, food, and other items you can actually utilize. And, this is no different. The price of materials are going up and have been for the past couple of years. Look at the commodity charts and see where they have gone the past three years - upward trend. When materials goes up we get saddled with the price increase and then you need a raise to keep paying these high prices and around and around we go.

One major item for consideration is the amount of people in America that are fearful of what is to come and have been purchasing weapons. Interesting times we live in.
 
#13
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah... The price will come down after the initial set up, and once the product pays for itself, just like Accuracy International! 20 year old platform with no significant changes, now bringing more than ever...

Or how about the AR platform.... It's enjoyed it's bicentennial, and $2500+ AR's are rampant. I'm sure they're still paying for the tooling though.

Welcome to the new buisness model. Gouge gouge gouge. People will pay it. </div></div>

That's kind of what I was saying... the manufacturers tell you that the price has to be high to pay for tooling and materials and such. Then they get to find out IF people will pay what you are asking.

When I used to sell motorcycles I had a manager once tell me, "You get 100% of what you DON'T ask for."

If they ask for it, and people pay for it... they will keep asking.

You just have to ask yourself, how cool is the product that you are looking at? Is it $500 cool? $150? $1500? Everything has a value. Perceived value is different then actual cost.
 
#14
Re: Price Increases?????

As long as people can be sold on a "superior" product, the gap between cost and value will continue to widen. I haven't seen them personally but I would really like to know if the materials used to make the $500 mounting system is going to give you any advantage over your $100 mounting system. For most applications, aluminum is aluminum and steel is steel. Sure you can have a very ineffecient design that is very labor intensive to build, but is that better, and if so how do you quantify that?
 
#16
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I get the Supply and Demand thing, I get the economy is in the shitter. But really, how can you justify some of these prices. Jay, you are correct I used to sell Hensoldts, so I do kind of understand it. Whats ridiculous is some of this stuff is old technology with a few bells and whistles and it is labeled "unlike no other" <span style="color: #FF0000">at the end of the day, a scope mount is a scope mount is a scope mount. There are two rings that hold the scope and attach itself to a rifle. </span>

But to hear that the astronomical prices are due to Materials, tooling, and labor is kind of ridiculous. </div></div>

That's not correct and if it were, then why wouldn't you go and buy the cheapest one and not sweat the $500 options?

There are blacksmiths and there are engineers. The blacksmiths are the guys or companies who just hammer out a product so they have it to sell it and it does really nothing more than what every other non-designed, just imitated product of it's kind does. However, if the product enjoys a brand or following the decimal for the price is moved to the right a place or two.

Then there are engineers. They don't view a mount or a ring as 'just something that attaches one thing to another'. They recognize the consequences to accuracy, functional efficiency and optimal performance in designing and then producing the ring or mount in order to gain the best performance possible.

Rings are a good example. Many rings that cost well north of $100 are no different than rings that are well south of $50. They don't ensure a return to zero when removed any better, they don't ensure a better level of grip, they don't enable any compensation for out of spec rails in enabling return to zero and they're not more functional in regards to weight. Yet they're over 100% more expensive. This is money down the drain.

Compare that to a set of American Rifle Company rings. They're lighter, they ensure return to zero, they compensate for out of spec rails, they deliver a grip/torque ratio better than anyone in the product line and they're not the most expensive rings on the market. Sure they just attach your scope to the rifle, but they do it in the best possible way. That's value for money.

As an aside, you need to also incorporate the 'fear factor'. There's a great deal of 'what if' messaging in the marketing of products in this field. "Out in the field, when failure could mean lethal consequences, can you trust your equipment to not fail? You can if you're using Tactical Testicle Warmers..."

Walter Mitty eats that shit up all day long and asks for more...
 
#17
Re: Price Increases?????

Seems kind of funny that if part of the reason is people are afraid of some SHTF scenario they feel they'd have to have a $4000 rifle when a couple of $1000 rifles and plenty of ammo would be more likely to get the job done.

I saw where Krieger is raising barrel prices at the end of this month. Part of that may be because there are so few sources for the barrel steel they need...chalk it up to the deindustrialization of North America and Europe.
 
#18
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azimutha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #FF0000">Seems kind of funny that if part of the reason is people are afraid of some SHTF scenario they feel they'd have to have a $4000 rifle when a couple of $1000 rifles and plenty of ammo would be more likely to get the job done.</span>

I saw where Krieger is raising barrel prices at the end of this month. Part of that may be because there are so few sources for the barrel steel they need...chalk it up to the deindustrialization of North America and Europe. </div></div>

never underestimate the profitability of people's irrationality. To many the amount spent equals security. Besides "when in the field...."
smile.gif
 
#19
Re: Price Increases?????

Something will have to give sooner or later. Half the people I use to shot with cant afford to now. And the constant increase in cost for products every year that they make no changes to seems to bother me the most.

The comment about tooling and machining driving up cost. Once the tooling and machines are paid for they never lower the cost. It seem to me the firearm and optic industries price just never seem to level out, always going up. As long as we keep paying high prices they will continue to increase the price.
 
#20
Re: Price Increases?????

Wait until you start building an FPV R/C aircraft...if you just want to build one it will cost you $2000 if you do the research and find the company that makes the actual components you could do it for under $750.

Inflation and "tacticool" are kicking in...
 
#21
Re: Price Increases?????

Terminology,fear mongering,gouging,and superior marksman I mean marketing skills.
A scope rifle ,becomes a weapons system.Or platform ..
also maybe scarcity of some products..
I had a guy in Ms call me to tell me why his ak was selling for 850.00 in a local nickle and dime paper.
1. it was his
2.he aint got to sale it
3.it is or was a pre ban
4.it aint got no paper work
there was a 5th but cannot remember.
Prices are high,good skills git a premium it seems too.
When i first came here on this site I was looking for a bolt action with a detachable type scope and mount with good back up iron sights..
Whoa! at some of the replies I got..
So for now .am sticking with what i know ,M1As,Mini fo teens and a couple of .22z.
Mags and ammo,and a few scopes since the eye surgery....
But spend your money on what you want..
And I will eventually buy the bolt action looked for like that GAP M24 that sold recently in the for sale section.
But something like that would shoot way better than me,so i will plug along with my wore out M1As that barely shoot 1 inch groups.

They are too expensive as well.
1200.00 in 96,and now the same one for 17-1800 dollars.
Mag prices are stoopid for these and the minis...

Maybe there will be a glut of products since the troop draw down.
And the stupid prices at guns an ammo for 30 cal an 50 cal ammo cans will drop.
I mean 16.00 dollars for an ammo can...
 
#22
Re: Price Increases?????

It is what you make of it.

You can still build a damn nice rifle for under 1,000 bucks.

Me personally...with everybody buying and selling things. Stuff has gotten quite a bit cheaper.
 
#23
Re: Price Increases?????

Actually the $500 mount makes perfect sense, when you consider most are putting $2500+ scopes in them.

If you feel secure in spending $200 or less on a mount, more power too you. However in the case of the $500 mount that is in the process and the materials used and more importantly in the fact that speaking with military end users their "lower end mounts are failing"

I will give you a perfect example, watch that magpul video every one is crowing about. The first 15 minutes is Todd selling you on the LT Mount and how that is all he uses. Skip ahead to disc two and within the first 5 minutes of the video you'll see Chris say they need to rezero because his LT mount was loose. Which to cover this up they moved to the scope swap nonsense. That is the reality of it, the lowest common denominator mounts don't work. They come loose or you are required to apply generous amounts of Loctite to them.

Every day there are threads on here about something not working as they expect. The rifle's zero wanders from trip to trip, the ballistic don't match on any given day as expected and you wonder why. Because you buy a $4000 rifle and $800 scope and put it in $90 mounts. Or they buy a $4000 rifle, a $3000 scope and $90 mounts.... it's a system.

I beat the living shit out of my stuff and it works, I don't clean them very often, I shoot what I have in front of me and it works. My ballistic match my computer, my scopes return to zero and are dependable that is what makes a Tactical Rifle, tactically viable.

When scopes where averaging $1200 you had guys getting Badger Rings because they know it works. $200 for Badger rings. Now you have a $3000 AR10 and want a throw lever mount that cost less to perform... please, the price has changed the percentage hasn't. You want the throw levers to actually work without specialized tools, without having to loctite the snot out of them, so you have to pay for better machining made, here in the USA. That is where the money goes. Not some chinese factory spitting out 100s.

Step back and look at what you are asking the system to do, what you paid for the components and see if they have really changed or just kept up with the system as a whole.

People said the same thing about $300 bipods, but look at the Atlas compared to a Harris.. No contest.. the scale slides.
 
#25
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually the $500 mount makes perfect sense, when you consider most are putting $2500+ scopes in them.

If you feel secure in spending $200 or less on a mount, more power too you. However in the case of the $500 mount that is in the process and the materials used and more importantly in the fact that speaking with military end users their "lower end mounts are failing"

I will give you a perfect example, watch that magpul video every one is crowing about. The first 15 minutes is Todd selling you on the LT Mount and how that is all he uses. Skip ahead to disc two and within the first 5 minutes of the video you'll see Chris say they need to rezero because his LT mount was loose. Which to cover this up they moved to the scope swap nonsense. That is the reality of it, the lowest common denominator mounts don't work. They come loose or you are required to apply generous amounts of Loctite to them.

Every day there are threads on here about something not working as they expect. The rifle's zero wanders from trip to trip, the ballistic don't match on any given day as expected and you wonder why. Because you buy a $4000 rifle and $800 scope and put it in $90 mounts. Or they buy a $4000 rifle, a $3000 scope and $90 mounts.... it's a system.

I beat the living shit out of my stuff and it works, I don't clean them very often, I shoot what I have in front of me and it works. My ballistic match my computer, my scopes return to zero and are dependable that is what makes a Tactical Rifle, tactically viable.

When scopes where averaging $1200 you had guys getting Badger Rings because they know it works. $200 for Badger rings. Now you have a $3000 AR10 and want a throw lever mount that cost less to perform... please, the price has changed the percentage hasn't. You want the throw levers to actually work without specialized tools, without having to loctite the snot out of them, so you have to pay for better machining made, here in the USA. That is where the money goes. Not some chinese factory spitting out 100s.

Step back and look at what you are asking the system to do, what you paid for the components and see if they have really changed or just kept up with the system as a whole.

People said the same thing about $300 bipods, but look at the Atlas compared to a Harris.. No contest.. the scale slides. </div></div>


LL,

I certainly appreciate and understand what you're saying, really...I do. I don't shoot nearly as much as much as some of the guys on here and I've been nothing but happy with my ADM. When comparing the two mounts, GDI vs ADM, the main difference I see is the material being used (steel vs aircraft aluminum).

I'm not an 'operator' nor do I pretend to be so the ADM works perfectly fine for anything I could put it through. When I compare the two mounts based on the specs available online, the construction material is really the only difference I can see other than the GDI costing nearly 3x as much and the material/construction alone wouldn't be enough for me to justify the added cost. No, I don't feel the ADM is inferior.

That being said, I appreciate a reliable piece of hardware as much as you or the next guy. Do I have the cash to purchase the GDI? Sure. Will I be purchasing one when it's released? No, but I won't rule out the possibility of purchasing one in the future simply because I like the feeling and confidence I have when I know my shit absolutely will not fail.
 
#26
Re: Price Increases?????

Bacon prices have doubled in the last year here in Colorado.

I'm not fat, have no intentions of being fat, and I'm very pissed about this.
 
#27
Re: Price Increases?????

I get a warm fuzzy every time I go to the "Tactical Competiton" forum on here and view the prize table of some shoot.
I'm amazed that NF or Vortex, or whoever can cut their profits and generously give away 2 scopes per contest.
And it's nice to know that the 10% price increase this year didn't go to fund this.

Frank, do you purchase all your gear, or do you get a promo once in awhile?
Miles
 
#28
Re: Price Increases?????

I buy a lot of my gear, that is not to say I don't get a discount on much of it too.
But a significant amount of my money goes to buying the gear so you guys don't have too.

There is more to a mount Killshot than just the materials alone. The machines used to build it is also a factor. The mounting system in a QD is another major factor and how it handles use is important. Can it be taken on and off without loose of accuracy. Can it be adjusted to out of spec rails without specialized tools, can it be tightened to not come off without using loctite ?

The GDI system is used on full autos, its been used by the military for years, it's a proven design. The PROM alone was in R&D for more than a 1 year, that cost money, and shows a commitment to quality. Marksmanship quality.
 
#29
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I buy a lot of my gear, that is not to say I don't get a discount on much of it too.
But a significant amount of my money goes to buying the gear so you guys don't have too. </div></div>

Well, right now I need 2 scopes, S&B of course, 3 mounts, sphur will do, and a Mcmillan stock.

Here is my address so you can send it to me.
 
#33
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they wouldn't charge the price if people weren't buying them.</div></div>

Exactly! That's the sad part. People won't say "it's too much" and not buy it. You can't place all the blame on the company/manufacturer. We (the shooters) are the dumbasses that just pay whatever price is thrown out there.
 
#34
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they wouldn't charge the price if people weren't buying them.</div></div>

Exactly! That's the sad part. People won't say "it's too much" and not buy it. </div></div>

Wanna bet?
 
#35
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lot of it is going to have to do with

Supply and Demand
Cost of materials
Machining costs
tooling costs
labor involved in programming

and then the Spuhr mounts come from overseas so that adds dollars as well. Some of it is outrageous but they know people will pay for it is the thing. Walk around SHOT show once and you will face palm yourself at some peoples justification for their pricing. </div></div>
May I add IMPORT restrictions! The "Free Market" does not exist within the firearms industry, once inside the borders of the U.S., as far to many weapons and ammo mfg's are restricted. The U.S. does not allow any weapons from China to be imported, but does allow scopes for weapons to be imported. If Chinese made rifles and handguns were allowed in, my guess is the prices of weapons would drop very quickly.
 
#36
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sundown</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lot of it is going to have to do with

Supply and Demand
Cost of materials
Machining costs
tooling costs
labor involved in programming

and then the Spuhr mounts come from overseas so that adds dollars as well. Some of it is outrageous but they know people will pay for it is the thing. Walk around SHOT show once and you will face palm yourself at some peoples justification for their pricing. </div></div>


May I add IMPORT restrictions! The "Free Market" does not exist within the firearms industry, once inside the borders of the U.S., as far to many weapons and ammo mfg's are restricted. The U.S. does not allow any weapons from China to be imported, but does allow scopes for weapons to be imported. <span style="font-weight: bold">If Chinese made rifles and handguns were allowed in, my guess is the prices of weapons would drop very quickly.</span> </div></div>

I doubt they'd drop as quickly as you might think. Think about it...would you really trust your life to a China made firearm?

I know I sure as hell wouldn't trust one anymore than I'd trust a Counter Sniper to hold up to one of Lowlight's torture tests.
 
#37
Re: Price Increases?????

You make a good point, however; a lot of purchasers utilize Chinese made scopes without complaint. Chinese made AK's are very reliable, and have proven to be most deadly! There are so many Chinese weapons that can not be imported in the U.S.(but yes in Canada) I can't really give you an honest answer, as I haven't had a chance to handle or fire most of them. As far as the Norico 1911's I've fired, can't complain, and I've never had a Chinese made AK or SKS that has failed to work. The only way to find out is to allow the free market to work, let the Chinese made weapons and ammo in, if it isn't any good, the market will reflect poor sales, if not....
 
#38
Re: Price Increases?????

Multitude of things going on.

1. Supply and demand ---- as long as there are people willing to pay top dollar, then the profit margin will remain high

2. Steel --- if its steel, its more expensive

3. Fuel --- all the increases in fuel costs affect end product costs due to shipping/transport. Diesel costs (the friggin byproduct of making gasoline) have been upside down since Katrina so that everyone going to fill up with gas can feel like they arent getting raped. They are just passing the costs on to diesel so that you pay for it on the back side with products/merchandise.

4. Value of the american dollar is decreasing


Those are just some of the things..there are others.

As a rule, I find that the American people dont mind paying for toys/entertainment --- tobacco, alcohol, football, movies, electronics, hunting, guns/scopes, etc. Paying for the things like health insurance and food...well, thats another matter altogether.

Just my 2 cents.
 
#39
Re: Price Increases?????

I definitely agree that your rifle, scope, and rings should be comparative in price, BUT.... the whole argument about the rings coming loose should never cross a military man's mind. PCCs/PCIs... Either weekly or before I go out for the day I grab the torque wrench and allen keys, and make sure everything is tight. I can understand the convenience of having rings that never come loose, but for me PCCs/PCIs are beat into my head, so it's not really an issue.
 
#40
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackbeard7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I definitely agree that your rifle, scope, and rings should be comparative in price, BUT.... the whole argument about the rings coming loose should never cross a military man's mind. PCCs/PCIs... Either weekly or before I go out for the day I grab the torque wrench and allen keys, and make sure everything is tight. I can understand the convenience of having rings that never come loose, but for me PCCs/PCIs are beat into my head, so it's not really an issue.</div></div>

Military guys are not just using fixed rings, they are using throw lever rings too which do come loose.

Torquing down fixed rings is a no brainer, but I have also seen military guys get issued rings like TPS where after everyone taking a turn torquing them down they break the cross bolt or claw... not all military guys are issued badgers which are the best of the bunch when it comes to fixed rings.
 
#42
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe its just me, but I look around here and see things that are very suprising. When in the hell did the prices of all these new products decided they needed to be damn high? 500 dollars for a scope mount, close to 3K for a chassis, rifles north of 5K, when is it gonna stop?

I like cool and expensive shit just as much as the next guy, but come on really </div></div>
When will it stop? Not until until the supply of new an want to be cool types dry up, an I don't see that happening anytime soon. Will a $10-$15K combo kill you any faster/quicker when it's real, than a rack 700 with a stock Leupold, I think not, as no weapon is any better than the guy operating it. But you will look most cool with a scare coat full of patches, an a name stick. Trap shooting was the same way back when, an look where it's at today compared.

Now don't get me wrong, if it's about money shots only, not having the best makes one second guess his gear, which is never good. That said how many that spend the big bucks, fully intend on doing anything other than paper or steel?
The Mfg's an gunsmiths know this, an until the overall newness wears off with the newest fresh meat, the only incentive they have is to see what the market will really, bare. Can't say that I blame them at all, every industry has a hay day, make it while you can. Because one day it will all be over.
Just like fishing, the winning rod, boat, motor, tackle, brand of locator, even type of gas, ect has to be known by those who also ran. Will having all the right stuff make you a winner, probably not. You will be cool for having it all, an your confidence level will give you a little more self worth, even though your money would be best, spent, on training.

Tacticool, just like sex, sells. Pure All American, fact.
 
#43
Re: Price Increases?????

You're right but let's see that off the shelf $700 rifle with a sub $1000 scope on it show up at one of the Popular National Matches and run with the guys using that $8k - $10k system ?

Two matches ago I think it was, a guy had his scope go down and he followed us around upset, almost got himself thrown off the property because his scope broke early on day 1, he was told he couldn't shoot it any more and was livid over that. He complained endless about the time and money spent prepping for the big match only to be out of the game early on day 1 because of a "system" failure.

I have had that happen to me in the past, showed up after flying across country only to have the scope break. When I did compete more often I had a S&B as a back up optic ready to roll, because of the time and investment. Some would call that extreme to have a $2500 scope on standby, I called it a wise investment. In that case a good QD Mount that I have 100% confidence in is also worth its weight in gold, especially if its the return to zero is sub 1/2 MOA.

We all have to weigh cost to benefit ratios based on the activity we engage in. I tend to err on better is beneficial, that means I spend more, at least my mind is at ease.
 
#44
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're right but let's see that off the shelf $700 rifle with a sub $1000 scope on it show up at one of the Popular National Matches and run with the guys using that $8k - $10k system ?

Two matches ago I think it was, a guy had his scope go down and he followed us around upset, almost got himself thrown off the property because his scope broke early on day 1, he was told he couldn't shoot it any more and was livid over that. He complained endless about the time and money spent prepping for the big match only to be out of the game early on day 1 because of a "system" failure.

I have had that happen to me in the past, showed up after flying across country only to have the scope break. When I did compete more often I had a S&B as a back up optic ready to roll, because of the time and investment. Some would call that extreme to have a $2500 scope on standby, I called it a wise investment. In that case a good QD Mount that I have 100% confidence in is also worth its weight in gold, especially if its the return to zero is sub 1/2 MOA.

We all have to weigh cost to benefit ratios based on the activity we engage in. I tend to err on better is beneficial, that means I spend more, at least my mind is at ease. </div></div>

I still see the M24 with the Leupold M3A out shoot the M110 with the Leupold Mk4 super high speed TMR reticle, every time we go to the range. Compare the prices of those two weapon systems and tell me what's wrong with that picture. I definitely understand why you would spend the money on solid rings or mounts. Makes sense. For me, I just try to make do with what's issued. Plus the wifey gets pissed when I spend money on "army crap." Cost me under $50 to build my first ghillie and she still bitches about that.
 
#45
Re: Price Increases?????

Sorry but I don't get the critique/point of discussion?

I have as a good side example with IPSC shooters many times had the discussion where I always say if you not are one of the top ten best shooters in your division you don't need a 2000 dollar 2011.
You are fine with a second hand glock.
And what happends, very many shooters run straight away and order not only a 2000 USD gun, but more so often 3000-4000 USD.
Because people seem to belive that competition results are totally connected to high dollar investments and not so much practice.
For a high level competitor the costs of perfect gear doesent really matter, for a gerdo who lowes high quality the costs is also not very important.
But for many recreational shooters the price is important and today with the big amount of really good middle priced stuff its fairly easy to get decent quality for decent money.

We have just the same situation here in the tactical crowd, where its no problem to shoot on a high level without AI, TRG ,Hensoldt, S&B or Spuhr.
You don't need a .338 either to shoot......

A Rolex or a Rolls aint for everyone, so why even consider that everybody have to own an Accuracy int?

So the excuse that it's to expensive is not really valid.
There is nooone that forces you to get the worst of everything?

My scopemount system was developed for military to give the operator the best possibilitys and choises, and I am very proud to say that more and more SF units the world over buys it as it's giving them an extra advantage where everything counts.
We are very proud also to produce everything locally in Sweden and that way keep the competence for furter development in the west.

I have never been rich.
I don't own any new car.
Of the total of maybe 140 guns that I personally have owned I have only bought two of them new, the rest are secondhanded.
Same with the optics, I have some really nice stuff, but I never decided that NOW MUST I have a SB 5-25 and it might cost what ever it must.
No, Never, I buy it second hand when the perfect deals turns up.
So also for a geardo who likes good stuff is there choises.

Chinaproduction
Yes chinaproduction takes prices down and profits up.
But also flexibility down and quality down.
For the western world the chinaproduction is really to sell the soul to the devil, earns a lot at the beginning but looses a lot at the end.

Number of guns.
I live in Sweden.
For mostly people there is a maximium number of rifles/shotguns allowed and that number is six.
That makes a lot of people to invest a fair amount in those few guns they have, instead of buying loads of guns....

Håkan
 
#46
Re: Price Increases?????

Comparing what a guy can do with a bolt gun versus a gas gun is not a great comparison. Most can't properly shoot a gasser to get the full potential out of them to begin with. It's not as simple as a bolt gun. You watch guys slapping the trigger on the gasser and then wonder why it's a minute and a half rifle.

A good gasser is every bit as accurate as your average bolt gun, but let's face it there is a lot more happening with the system moving versus the single shot bolt gun.
 
#47
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Comparing what a guy can do with a bolt gun versus a gas gun is not a great comparison. Most can't properly shoot a gasser to get the full potential out of them to begin with. It's not as simple as a bolt gun. You watch guys slapping the trigger on the gasser and then wonder why it's a minute and a half rifle.

A good gasser is every bit as accurate as your average bolt gun, but let's face it there is a lot more happening with the system moving versus the single shot bolt gun. </div></div>

That being said, the military, and by military I mean Army, went to the gas powered... paid more than a few thousand more per system... got rid of the bolt action almost altogether... and failed to pay for the proper fielding or training on the system. Just making a point about the money and bureaucracy again. It's not just "guy's" we're talking about. It's military sniper teams. Before I get off on a tangent... like you said, it is easier to shoot the bolt action. That's why I'd pay less for one, than WAY more for gas operated. There are some not so bad priced gas guns though.
 
#48
Re: Price Increases?????

The Army washed out the M24- the 30 year old technology, and the semi-auto system gave them a low signature capability, enhanced night vision optics (mountable in front of the day optic with no loss of zero), rapid fire capability (for multiple target senarios) and magazine feeding capability.

That's a lot of functionality for the exchange. Inside 600m the M110 is just a better weapon to field. The old M24 has about a 50% performance edge at 600-800m.

Now of course they are bringing back the 24, in .300 win mag with a suppressor and night vision also, and that's great because the M110 makes a better 0-600M platform for a spotter, and now in .300 win mag, the bolt gun reaches farther and has low signature capability. So now the sniper spotter team was brought from 1980 up to speed with modern technology.
 
#49
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So now the sniper spotter team was brought from 1980 up to speed with modern technology.</div></div>

Thanks to the $2500 chassis system and all that went with the upgrade.
smile.gif


Money well spend in my opinion.
 
#50
Re: Price Increases?????

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spuhr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Because people seem to belive that competition results are totally connected to high dollar investments and not so much practice</div></div>
My point as well. Most will dump truck loads of money on cool gear, but never spend the time required to be at a level to benefit from the funds spent, thinking they can buy ability.
I was a buyer at one point, myself, but quickly learned,(well re-learned) all was not as it appeared. Once I went back to trigger/field time I found the bulk of lacking on my part, was only in lost ability(even if I ever had it), not in gear. I've had name sticks that I owned, that I an my sidekick out shot with a POS I throw-ed together with used parts, bought off the Hide, that were in fact labeled as junk. Had one 300wm built by a name that never really shot well until re-barreled by a no name.
All that said, my main point is, I have been out shot by what I an others would call junk. Then again I've gotten lucky a time or two. But when it's all said an done you can't buy your way into the winners circle, or a ride home.
 
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