Primer Shortage

[Fire4EffectCA]

Powder Valley has has CCI #400 primers available all day today.

 

[Downzero]

Why would I follow your posts or care what you have to say?

What clown school did you teach Economics?

The fact that you do not understand what market prices actually are, is just making you look foolish.

If stock is blowing off the shelves as soon as its put there, its not going for the Market price, which is actually the equilibrium price where goods are bought AND Sold. No one is selling primers for $40/K after they buy them.

There is no such thing as scalping. A large portion of any economy is people who buy something for X and sell for X+Y. Y is called profit. You know, the thing that makes business work? Words like scalping and price gouging just show pure ignorance of economics and how a healthy market place works. Its a good indicator the person using those terms is ignorant and uneducated.

No wonder most kids today are functional retards, when the people teaching them aren't any better. Where ever you got your degree from, you need to ask for a refund.

I am actually more shocked that you claim to have so much education but you can't tell your opinion from fact. You can't even seem to tell that I agree with the general sentiment you expressed. Further, I'm not quite sure why you felt it necessary to engage in personally directed insults because I disagree with a minor portion of your post, but it is pathetic to me that you think that constitutes an argument. By pathetic, I mean no real judgment other than than I think that level of thinking is worthy of pity, as in, I actually feel sorry for you that you felt the need to hurl insults at someone who just wrote a long post agreeing with almost every point you made.

There absolutely is such a thing as scalping in a world where there are price constraints holding prices below market prices where the actual market value is higher. You may not like me calling them "scalpers," but that's exactly what they're called in the ticket business and this is a worthwhile analogy. People believe in the idea of price gouging even though it's totally bogus, and the result is what you observe here. And as long as mainstream sellers are selling below market value such that there is a profit to be earned by scalping, scalping will continue.

There is absolutely no judgment in calling someone a scalper. If you want to go to a sold out concert, you pay what the scalper wants or you don't get to go. You seem to think that calling them scalpers implies some sort of normative judgement, but that is absolutely not the case. Taking advantage of a gap between supply and demand to earn a profit is perfectly legitimate. It's not as if the scalper is robbing people. He's providing a needed good at a price the buyer is willing to pay. You interpreted some moral judgment that just isn't there. If anything, scalpers are providing a morally beneficial service by helping the last few tickets go to those who are most willing and able to pay for them, for whatever reason. That ensures they go to their highest and best use, and that the profit goes to the scalper who takes that risk is deserving given that he's risked his own money to buy tickets that maybe nobody wants.

The suggestion that market equilibrium is unknown where there is no buying or selling going on is the modest interpretation of the empirical reality. There is basically zero of some of these components bought or sold on a regular basis, so you claiming that you know the true market value of these items where the rest of us are just idiots who wait to hear the truth from you is just nonsense. I am modest enough to say that if goods are not being bought and sold out in the open where we all have the chance to buy them for whatever the going rate is, then we don't really know the market value.

If I could go down the street right this instance and buy a pound of certain extruded rifle powders for $100 a pound, I would do so in a minute. I might not buy much, because after all, demand curves slope down, but you might be surprised at what I'd pay if those powders were available at all. The fact is that for a lot of these products, there are none realistically available to me at any price. And it's hard to have any fact-informed opinion on what the actual market value is for a product that is not being bought or sold anywhere near where that person is.

 

[B y r o n]

Powder Valley has has CCI #400 primers available all day today.

Already out of stock!

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I am actually more shocked that you claim to have so much education but you can't tell your opinion from fact. You can't even seem to tell that I agree with the general sentiment you expressed. Further, I'm not quite sure why you felt it necessary to engage in personally directed insults because I disagree with a minor portion of your post, but it is pathetic to me that you think that constitutes an argument. By pathetic, I mean no real judgment other than than I think that level of thinking is worthy of pity, as in, I actually feel sorry for you that you felt the need to hurl insults at someone who just wrote a long post agreeing with almost every point you made.

There absolutely is such a thing as scalping in a world where there are price constraints holding prices below market prices where the actual market value is higher. You may not like me calling them "scalpers," but that's exactly what they're called in the ticket business and this is a worthwhile analogy. People believe in the idea of price gouging even though it's totally bogus, and the result is what you observe here. And as long as mainstream sellers are selling below market value such that there is a profit to be earned by scalping, scalping will continue.

There is absolutely no judgment in calling someone a scalper. If you want to go to a sold out concert, you pay what the scalper wants or you don't get to go. You seem to think that calling them scalpers implies some sort of normative judgement, but that is absolutely not the case. Taking advantage of a gap between supply and demand to earn a profit is perfectly legitimate. It's not as if the scalper is robbing people. He's providing a needed good at a price the buyer is willing to pay. You interpreted some moral judgment that just isn't there. If anything, scalpers are providing a morally beneficial service by helping the last few tickets go to those who are most willing and able to pay for them, for whatever reason. That ensures they go to their highest and best use, and that the profit goes to the scalper who takes that risk is deserving given that he's risked his own money to buy tickets that maybe nobody wants.

The suggestion that market equilibrium is unknown where there is no buying or selling going on is the modest interpretation of the empirical reality. There is basically zero of some of these components bought or sold on a regular basis, so you claiming that you know the true market value of these items where the rest of us are just idiots who wait to hear the truth from you is just nonsense. I am modest enough to say that if goods are not being bought and sold out in the open where we all have the chance to buy them for whatever the going rate is, then we don't really know the market value.

If I could go down the street right this instance and buy a pound of certain extruded rifle powders for $100 a pound, I would do so in a minute. I might not buy much, because after all, demand curves slope down, but you might be surprised at what I'd pay if those powders were available at all. The fact is that for a lot of these products, there are none realistically available to me at any price. And it's hard to have any fact-informed opinion on what the actual market value is for a product that is not being bought or sold anywhere near where that person is.

Scalping, is when you cut someones scalp from their skull, usually to make a trophy for your conquest. It is a very effective psychological tool to inflict fear into a population.

Scalping when it comes to reselling, is an ignorant term like Price Gouging. It is made up, based on emotion and lack of basic understanding onf economics. Yes its codified in law, like so many other bullshit ideas rooted in stupidity. The irony is, these laws actually inhibit the very things they claim to protect. By removing the reward/profit , much less supply is diverted to where it needs to go in a timely fashion and can be sold at market prices to keep hoarders from wiping out the supply.

No one said the market equilibrium is unknown. When it comes to Primers/Powder, we know what the market prices are. Take information from the EE here, gunbroker, various local shooting boards/forums and you can see what the market price for powder is. Primers are $75-150 a brick. Powder depending on type is $30-150 lb. The free market dictates the price and something is worth what someone is willing to pay. The same as when a stock sale is executed, there is an offer and acceptance. 2 parties come to an agreement on what the price is. That is the equilibrium and it will eb and flow as supply and demand fluctuate.

I think we actually agree on most things but you are wrong. Everything is available if you look and are willing to pay the going rate. Even shit like RL26 and H1000/Retumbo is out there for sale. Most people are ignorant and do not know how to access the various marketplaces. Its out there if you look.

 

[Fire4EffectCA]

Already out of stock!

They were in stock when I posted and had been since this morning.

 

[Bacarrat]

Where was everyone when primers were cheap and available 3 years ago? Trying to get the latest and greatest scope? Trying out the latest Temperpedic pillow for your local PRS comp? For a while, Brownells had FGMM LRP in stock and for a penny hazmat shipping. Prices were high at the time, 175 per 5k, I bought 15k and split them with other smarter shooters that knew this was coming. To this day, I haven't even opened up that case.

This will cycle again when a Republican gets back in office. People will forget about primer and powder shortages and keep on buying stupid shit that is popular at the current moment and then bitch again when a crazy left winger gets back into office and bitch they can't find primers again.

 

[XTREM HTR16]

Well shit, anyone that wants em, I've got 2,900 CCI 400's I'd sell for $150 FTF in Indianapolis, if that would help anyone out.

 

[SalomonQST99]

and split them with other smarter shooters that knew this was coming.

My crystal ball is out of calibration. I'm pretty sure no one saw Covid coming and no one could have predicted that gas prices went from negative to all time highs after Covid. It's all hindsight and hindsight is often myopic.

 

[Bacarrat]

My crystal ball is out of calibration. I'm pretty sure no one saw Covid coming and no one could have predicted that gas prices went from negative to all time highs after Covid. It's all hindsight and hindsight is often myopic.

This also happened right after Obama came into office too. Seemed people don't learn from the past. I know, I have invoices dating back to 09 when I bought some CCI 450s and BR2s.

 

[Baron85]

I sold a bunch of my cci large pistol primers during covid. The sticker on them was .99 per 100. Don’t know how long I have had them but obviously wasn’t getting much use out of them.

Just before Covid hit I bought 12k Winchester small pistol primers for $30ish dollars a thousand.

 

[J Cal]

My local Sportsman's Warehouse got some primers in a few weeks ago and were selling CCI 400's for $5.10/100.
They wouldn't be selling that cheap if they weren't making any money.
Everybody is gouging. It's as simple as that.

Did they limit how many you can buy? My local sportsman's had some primers but was limited to 2 sleeves per customer.

 

[Downzero]

Scalping, is when you cut someones scalp from their skull, usually to make a trophy for your conquest. It is a very effective psychological tool to inflict fear into a population.

Scalping when it comes to reselling, is an ignorant term like Price Gouging. It is made up, based on emotion and lack of basic understanding onf economics. Yes its codified in law, like so many other bullshit ideas rooted in stupidity. The irony is, these laws actually inhibit the very things they claim to protect. By removing the reward/profit , much less supply is diverted to where it needs to go in a timely fashion and can be sold at market prices to keep hoarders from wiping out the supply.

No one said the market equilibrium is unknown. When it comes to Primers/Powder, we know what the market prices are. Take information from the EE here, gunbroker, various local shooting boards/forums and you can see what the market price for powder is. Primers are $75-150 a brick. Powder depending on type is $30-150 lb. The free market dictates the price and something is worth what someone is willing to pay. The same as when a stock sale is executed, there is an offer and acceptance. 2 parties come to an agreement on what the price is. That is the equilibrium and it will eb and flow as supply and demand fluctuate.

I think we actually agree on most things but you are wrong. Everything is available if you look and are willing to pay the going rate. Even shit like RL26 and H1000/Retumbo is out there for sale. Most people are ignorant and do not know how to access the various marketplaces. Its out there if you look.

That you have an opinion about a commonly used word in the English language means nothing to me. If you have never had the experience of waiting in line for a concert and having someone offer you a ticket for sale, let me assure you that it is very real. Nobody is saying anything about "removing" the reward or profit but you. Re-read your post. You're arguing with a straw man. A topic doesn't cease to exist because you say so. Hoarders are just as entitled to the supply as anyone else, so I don't know why you call them hoarders. They really don't like you calling them names.

Observing what things are offered for sale on here, gunbroker, or anywhere else is not a market equilibrium. That you think so is just evidence that you have a little knowledge of this topic run amok. Powder can't be shipped except by people who are trained, insured, and permitted to do so, so what something is offered for sale somewhere else is meaningless. Also, the offering price tells me nothing about what something actually sells for, so not only are your suggestions to look at individual data points not anything like a competitive market equilibrium, the data points you describe 1) aren't completed transactions in any amount and 2) are once again talking about a product that is not available for sale. Primers are out there and what they can be purchased for from retailers are obviously not within that discussion. Powders, on the other hand, are vastly unavailable, so there are no transactions to observe, and even if there were, individual transactions are not an equibrium or anything like it. If I go to my local store, I can buy primers for $4-5 per hundred up to the limit they set. If I take someone else with me, they can buy more. Individual transactions as you talk about are all over the place. Internet transactions come with shipping and hazmat, which historically we'd spread over buying sleeves of primers instead of individual thousands or less. The "equilibrium" takes into account all of these things. Whoever told you n=1 was a study is a liar.

You should have learned the limit of textbook, 100-level theory in the 100 level course. The professor should have explained to you that a "free market," or what is more correctly referred to as a "perfectly competitive market," exist only in a textbook. They are models that help us understand the real world by assuming away the nuance. They are not, by themselves and without critical thinking, answers. They are explanatory resources for further explanation. You appear to have missed those pages, which are in every textbook.

I haven't seen a single pound of IMR 8208 XBR for sale in 2 1/2 years. The last two pounds I saw for sale, I bought. I haven't seen a pound of Varget for sale in longer than that. I have been looking, but not as aggressively as you, apparently, because my time is valuable. I have seen H1000, Retumbo, and even H4350 for sale in that time. N=0 is definitely not a study of anything. That's what you're missing. When there's none to buy, the market equilibrium is like dividing by zero. It doesn't exist because there is no such thing as a market with no buyers and no sellers.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

That you have an opinion about a commonly used word in the English language means nothing to me. If you have never had the experience of waiting in line for a concert and having someone offer you a ticket for sale, let me assure you that it is very real. Nobody is saying anything about "removing" the reward or profit but you. Re-read your post. You're arguing with a straw man. A topic doesn't cease to exist because you say so. Hoarders are just as entitled to the supply as anyone else, so I don't know why you call them hoarders. They really don't like you calling them names.

Observing what things are offered for sale on here, gunbroker, or anywhere else is not a market equilibrium. That you think so is just evidence that you have a little knowledge of this topic run amok. Powder can't be shipped except by people who are trained, insured, and permitted to do so, so what something is offered for sale somewhere else is meaningless. Also, the offering price tells me nothing about what something actually sells for, so not only are your suggestions to look at individual data points not anything like a competitive market equilibrium, the data points you describe 1) aren't completed transactions in any amount and 2) are once again talking about a product that is not available for sale. Primers are out there and what they can be purchased for from retailers are obviously not within that discussion. Powders, on the other hand, are vastly unavailable, so there are no transactions to observe, and even if there were, individual transactions are not an equibrium or anything like it. If I go to my local store, I can buy primers for $4-5 per hundred up to the limit they set. If I take someone else with me, they can buy more. Individual transactions as you talk about are all over the place. Internet transactions come with shipping and hazmat, which historically we'd spread over buying sleeves of primers instead of individual thousands or less. The "equilibrium" takes into account all of these things. Whoever told you n=1 was a study is a liar.

You should have learned the limit of textbook, 100-level theory in the 100 level course. The professor should have explained to you that a "free market," or what is more correctly referred to as a "perfectly competitive market," exist only in a textbook. They are models that help us understand the real world by assuming away the nuance. They are not, by themselves and without critical thinking, answers. They are explanatory resources for further explanation. You appear to have missed those pages, which are in every textbook.

I haven't seen a single pound of IMR 8208 XBR for sale in 2 1/2 years. The last two pounds I saw for sale, I bought. I haven't seen a pound of Varget for sale in longer than that. I have been looking, but not as aggressively as you, apparently, because my time is valuable. I have seen H1000, Retumbo, and even H4350 for sale in that time. N=0 is definitely not a study of anything. That's what you're missing. When there's none to buy, the market equilibrium is like dividing by zero. It doesn't exist because there is no such thing as a market with no buyers and no sellers.

All those words and your shit doesn't make any sense.

You are making emotional based arguments like a child who doesn't get what they want. Aww poor thing had to wait in a line for a ticket and it sold out before you got there because you were too slow/lazy/dumb to plan ahead.

How the fuck are items that are sold online not market equilibrium? Its a price both the buyer and seller agree to. The market and target audience is large, much bigger than a local area where niche products can be hard to move. If the price is deemed to low, everything will be bought instantly. If its too high, it will sit until the price comes down or someone gets really desperate. Either way, the fact that some things sell and some sit, means you can look at asking prices and see which ones sold and get a pretty good idea what the going rate is.

People have been shipping powder and primers this entire time. Stop making excuses.

You aren't teaching anyone anything here. No shit a true free market does not exist. Thank you for clarifying something that no one needed.

I have bought and sold about 20 lbs of 8208 over the last 2 years or so. Its been in stock a bunch of times, mostly through hogdens own website. Grafs, PV, Brunos, PR, ect ect ect. Probably bought 250 lbs of powder in the last year from a variety of sources. Again, if you are too dumb and ignorant to understand the market place, then you will pay the ignorant penalty. Being dumb hurts. I know how much a 1lb of varget, 4350, H1000, RL26, N555, ect ect ect goes for because I have bought and sold a shit load of it. There is a market price for each of them. They are all available if you know where to look and are willing to pay the going rate.

Market rate is the equilibrium.

You need a refund on your education.

If you spent 1/10th the effort to source components as typing bullshit in here, you wouldn't have anything to complain about except a maxed credit card.

Your time is valuable? More loser excuses. Unless you make over $100/hr, its not. People who complain about mickey mouse price differences tend to be the poorest ones. If you actually made coin, you wouldn't care about paying high prices for a hobby you like/love. Stop pretending to be something you are not.

Typical academic. Zero common sense or street smarts. No understanding of the real world and think they are intellectually superior than everyone else. Its like a whole different brand of autism.

 

[rottenruger]

View attachment 7910711

CCI and Federal primers have been in stock at Target Sports USA for months.
I just picked up a thousand CCI 450’s from Powder Valley a couple weeks ago.

wat da hey is dat?

 

[rottenruger]

Primers are not the only item being conserved by DoD. We're assessing lithium battery and semi conductor inventories. You can't shoot what you can't see!

I hadn't begun to get that dar yet.

You're telling me there's no end to Govt ephing with us???

 

[338dude]

This also happened right after Obama came into office too. Seemed people don't learn from the past. I know, I have invoices dating back to 09 when I bought some CCI 450s and BR2s.

Yes I got an awakening at that time ,I stocked up after that but it’s been a while . I’m OK but if I knew then what I know now I would’ve bought twice as much!

 

[SalomonQST99]

Last couple of times that I've been into the local Bass Pro, the ammo shelves have been bursting with all kinds of different rounds. You'd think at some point soon that ammo orders would slow down and more primers would make it onto the market. We'll see...

 

[99mpower]

shooting 30-50k rounds of 9mm, and 10k of 556.. I need primers to get back to normal.. hahaha

 

[SilencedShooter11B]

My local Sportsman's Warehouse got some primers in a few weeks ago and were selling CCI 400's for $5.10/100.
They wouldn't be selling that cheap if they weren't making any money.
Everybody is gouging. It's as simple as that.

Wish my SW would stock some

I’ve reduced my shooting by 80% because of this. I have started dry firing more and shooting about 2 rounds for practice for every one in a match now and cut back two matches a year. Used to be considerably more

 

[Wizard1183]

Wish my SW would stock some

I’ve reduced my shooting by 80% because of this. I have started dry firing more and shooting about 2 rounds for practice for every one in a match now and cut back two matches a year. Used to be considerably more

And I’m the future it’ll be considerably less

 

[M.A. Matteson]

Has anyone else noticed that when primers are listed as available they are not Federal, CCI, Winchester or any other major recogined brand?

Yes, I did get a brick of Fed 210 here the other week, but for $109.00 plus shipping. Some of the suppliers do have mostly small rifle primers, some match. I haven't see match primer for large rifle in a long time. I am see some 209 up of sale. I got 5000 Cheddite 209 primers order from Ballistic Products in June. (total was $343.51 for 5000). I check daily but no luck. No H1000 or Varget Powders either. Now and then H4350 and H4831 powders.

 

[JsnSanko]

Natchez still has lots of primers, you just have to be willing to pay the price. Ordering 5K of each at a time cuts hazmat and shipping.

 

[99mpower]

Im having a very hard time spending $100 a brick... I have 120k ish.. and got them when the going was good, and shooting 30-40k of 9mm a year for USPSA. I wish I would of bought the 250k-300k i was planning on before everything went tits up

 

[GIXXER2000]

I bought most of the primers I have in 2018. For about $225 per 5k.