Rifle Scopes Probably the most asked question.... but I’m confused.

[Vapour1ze]

So after talking and researching like crazy, I still can’t find a solid reason to go mil or moa. I’m new to the precision stuff and started on my savage 10 stealth in creedmoor doing long range bench shooting. Recently built a new rifle in the same caliber that has cost some coin and trying to decide whether to stick with moa since that’s what I’ve plinked with for the past year, or make the jump over to mrad. I really would like to do some competitions this year.

I spoke with a gentlemen over at sport optics and he’s like dude if you want to do prs, it’s going to be hard to calculate moa while everyone is calling out mil windage etc. True or not true?

I’m in the US so initially I thought moa would be easier to think of as inches are more familiar than cm. Just looking for an honest opinion. Before I spent $3,000 on an optic I’d like to make sure I’m setting myself up for the proper reticle.

Stuck between Kahles 525i SKMR3 and the NF ATACF C545

Thanks and appreciate it.

 

[aard3]

MIL and MOA both accomplish the same thing, so it's mostly personal preference.

That said, in my opinion Sport Optics is right...If you are doing PRS, go MIL. Most everyone in matches and training courses all use MIL.... and that is how they are going to be calling shots, dope, etc. You will just be paddling up-stream going MOA.

I'm partial to the Kahles 525i... great optic and I like the SKMR3 reticle

 

[Danrobberg]

Mil is much more popular than moa in prs. I’m sure some use moa but the vast majority is mil. I had the same delima as you and went with mil and am glad I did. As long as you use the subtensions on the reticle it doesn’t really matter but if you want to go off some one else’s wind call It’s much easier to have the same system. Mil isn’t very he’s to learn either. 1 mil is 3.6 inches at 100 yards.

 

[Lkwoolsey]

Don't think in inches. Mrad is what a lot of competition shooters use, so to get on the same page as your spotter, I'd say get that, like the gentleman at sport optics. Either will work fine, just different numbers. Both are angular measurements, not linear measurements. CM and inches have no bearing on either system. You should be using your reticle to adjust off your first shot anyways, ie, either moa or mils will work.
I have moa scopes, mostly on my hunting rifles, and mil scopes on my precision guns. The moa scopes are simply because I don't really mess with adjustments on my hunting rifles anyways, mils are the norm at competitions so no wasted time doing a second set of calculations.
Just my two cents, lots of guys with way more experience will probably give you a better worded answer than mine though.

 

[Huskydriver]

The reticle matching the turrets is what matters at the end of the day regardless of what you choose. Both angular units can get you hits on targets when used correctly. Its not hard to learn both but yes most guys in prs style competition will be using mils. NRA style competitions will be calibrated in MOA but mils can still be used. Your line of thinking in regardless to inches and cm can be a fatal trap. Dont think in inches/ cm you need to think in mil or moa. The beauty of the scopes you listed above is that they are FFP scopes with holdover reticles. The reticle is the ruler you measure your shots with not your eye ball trying to guess how many inches or cm you missed by. If you observe a shot 1 mil right you just simply dial 1 mil to correct or just holdover the 1 mil in your scope too easy whether you use moa or mil it works the same.

 

[gconnoyer]

90% of people for PRS are using mil so communication without math is the main benefit, as well as a faster/gross adjustment.
10mil vs 36moa (if you were shooting Fclass or benchrest I would advise a 1/4 or 1/8moa scope for the finer adjustment)

When you're shooting, you dont use inches anyway so dont think like that.
You dont look at an impact at 637 yards and say, "lets see, I was about 6" left, so 6" at 637y is about 2.5643moa so to correct for that I need 2.34 clicks (100% madeup off the cuff measurement, but you get the point.)
You'll simply look at your reticle and say "that impact was .3mil left (or 5moa left if you go that route) and correct instantly then and there.

The biggest benefit is that someone spotting, or someone giving you wind calls, you'll almost always get a mil hold. You arent going to be using a tape measure, you'll be using the tape measure 3" in front of your eye (your reticle)

Even when zeroing, you wont walk down to the target or cross reference and measure from a target you have on the bench with you and say "Ahhhh I'm about 2" high and half inch left"
You'll just look at your impact in the scope and say "welp, .2mil high, .1left" and correct instantly.

Those days come from second focal plane scopes and the inability to measure/adjust based off of a duplex reticle.

 

[NovaHunter]

MOA does not equal inches, and Mils do not equate to cm. They are both angular measurements.

Mil turrets are in .1 increments. MOA turrets are in 1/4 MOA increments. Now do this in you head in under 5 seconds without using your phone. If have 1.1 Mil dialed into your turret for a 300 yard shot, and you need to dial to 3.1 Mils for a 500 Yard shot how many clicks do you need to make? Same question in MOA, if you are dialed at 3.75MOA for a 300 yard shot and need to dial to 10.5 MOA how many clicks do you need to make?

First answer is 31-11 = 20 clicks, base 10 is fast. 2nd answer is 4 clicks per MOA so we need to convert MOA's to clicks. 3.75 MOA equates to 15 clicks. 10.5 MOA equates to 46 clicks. The. we can do 46 - 15 = 31.

When the clock is ticking and you have to move your gun, support bag, build a position, and then adhust your scope which one are you going to be able to do in 5 seconds or less?

Communication though is really important. If the person shooting the stage before you tells you, "I was holding .7 Mils left" to help you with your windcall, How many MOA are you going to need to hold to equate to thst? Can you calculate that on the fly.

I shot MOA ny whole life til I started shooting PRS. I switched very early one to MILS. It is much easier.

If it is hard to understand why, shoot a 1 day match with a scope you have now and talk to guys there. 99%+ of guys shooting PRS shoot Mils.

 

[beetroot]

So after talking and researching like crazy

With the huge amount of info out there on Mr Google and the recent threads on this forum, I conclude two potential outcomes from this:

A, you are lying and haven't done any research
B, you just ain't cut out for shooting sports

Have you tried quilting/patchwork? That's all in inches with no conversions to metric or angles needed.

 

[acudaowner]

its a choice like all others i have a mill mill scope its nice to me i like it i also have a moa moa scope it is also nice to me . Buy one don't like buy one of the others. My one scope i could only get mill mill no choices not that i had much choice on the other the company that i bought it through sent me the wrong one ordered mill mill they sent moa moa i sent it back 3 times and all 3 times they sent another moa i got tired of it and kept the last one got to learn to use it anyway so now i can figure both out lol ...

 

[super_poot]

Mill reticle, mill turrets, first focal plane, buy the nicest one you can afford. MOA is only for fudds. Really nothing more to discuss here.

 

[patriot07]

Go mil - you'll thank me later.

As for scopes, I'd go for the ATACR between those 2. But neither is a bad choice. If you are paying $3k for an ATACR, make sure you get the mil-C reticle. If you really want the mil-R, you can get them used much cheaper.

 

[Luvman]

I think in inches, feet and yards. And I machine stuff for a living. Even in the machining world we measure angles in decimals (read 10 based system like MILS). It’s been over 15 yrs since I’ve worked from blueprints that had angles dimensioned in minutes and seconds, and they were drawn in the 1960’s.

Scopes are moving in angular measurements. I would go FFP with MIL reticle and MIL knobs.

 

[AIAW]

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/moa-vs-mil.6922029/

WARNING:

 

[Sogan]

Like lowlight says, they all act as a ruler 3 inches in front of your face. Either one will work fine. However I chose to switch to MIL early in since that is what was all around me and that was what was being called out the most at classes etc. Sure you can take the MIL and translate it to MOA but that takes time.

 

[spife7980]

Degrees vs radians.

Just get a mil. Unless you shoot with old people, they probably use moa.

Beyond that if you don’t get the math they both do the exact same thing, it’s just quarters vs tenths.

 

[Vapour1ze]

Ok great- I appreciate all the comments. Really helped clear things up. I will pick up the SKMR3 and go from there.

 

[ncr92]

2nd answer is 4 clicks per MOA so we need to convert MOA's to clicks. 3.75 MOA equates to 15 clicks. 10.5 MOA equates to 46 clicks. The. we can do 46 - 15 = 31.

No. From 3.75 to 10.50 is 6.75 MOA which is 27 clicks on a 1/4 MOA scope. I think you proved the point you were making.