Suppressors PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

It is still moving. Congressman Thornberry's office has been working with me on this. As soon as the congress goes back into session, I will be back to work on it.
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

They could afford MANY more people to make it more efficient for the customer, but that would only benefit the customer and the over worked examiner. More examiners or more HELPERS to do some of the prerequisite stuff would make way too much sense and the US GOV does NOTHING that makes sense!
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have way too many cans, if that can be possible.

You just have to put the paperwork in and forget about it until the shop calls. If I hit a mark I might call the branch to check because I have had paperwork clear with no stamp arriving for months and months. In fact I have had replacement paperwork sent before the actual paperwork showed up. So other than making sure that doesn't happen, thinking about only makes it worse.

Get it in, and move on... they will clear it. </div></div>

This attitude is part of the problem. Just put up with it. Hope for the best. Screw that. These people work for us, as do the politicians to whom they answer. I appreciate Scott's decision to be proactive. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, as they say. If enough folks make racket about NFA policy, things can be changed. If we all just "put in our paperwork and forget about it" then we will continue to see a deteriorating process. Nobody is making a stink about it, why bother to fix it. More money coming in with fewer paychecks going out - it's a win/win situation for them. We should not allow it to be that way. I also appreciate that momentum is growing to make suppressors not only easier to buy, but possible cash and carry in the future. We should NOT settle for the status quo.
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chainring</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have way too many cans, if that can be possible.

You just have to put the paperwork in and forget about it until the shop calls. If I hit a mark I might call the branch to check because I have had paperwork clear with no stamp arriving for months and months. In fact I have had replacement paperwork sent before the actual paperwork showed up. So other than making sure that doesn't happen, thinking about only makes it worse.

Get it in, and move on... they will clear it. </div></div>

This attitude is part of the problem. Just put up with it. Hope for the best. Screw that. These people work for us, as do the politicians to whom they answer. I appreciate Scott's decision to be proactive. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, as they say. If enough folks make racket about NFA policy, things can be changed. If we all just "put in our paperwork and forget about it" then we will continue to see a deteriorating process. Nobody is making a stink about it, why bother to fix it. More money coming in with fewer paychecks going out - it's a win/win situation for them. We should not allow it to be that way. I also appreciate that momentum is growing to make suppressors not only easier to buy, but possible cash and carry in the future. We should NOT settle for the status quo. </div></div>

They may just decide, to upped the cost in line with modern incomes and reduce the work flow by making it cost $2000 per tax stamp instead of $200.

Sure you can send a letter and I know my gun shop has, but unless you have a business interest in it, I would move with caution.

Like I said, I have more suppressors than most Class III dealers, so I am happy with where i am ... if you want to bitch and complain about one or two transfers in your lifetime great, I have done more than 20 and it has never effected me enough to sweat. Not to mention the times over the years tend to fluctuate enough to know it comes around and levels off at some point. Prior to July it was moving along as normal, in the past it has slowed down and sped up... so I have seen it from a broader view than 1 or 2 transfers that took a bit too long.
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

The thing here to realize is from the beginning the NFA process was created to discourage ownership . I wouldn't hold my breath about any changes that benefit the end user coming , if anything I agree with LL and the changes will be detrimental in nature . The process is what it is and change isn't always a good thing especially where the government is concerned .
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

This is great info. There was a senator inquiring to the ATF Director about this very info not long ago looking to add examiners. I love the idea of the NFA "Card". It makes no sense; especially to SOT's to have to "requalify" for every transfer.
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I agree with LL to an extent; you don't want to poke a sleeping bear. However, you don't want to sit idly by and do nothing. The thing that is different about today and way back when is the growing demand for suppressors. More and more first time guys are getting into owning cans. In 2007 there were not even 26k form 4s processed. In FY2011, there were well over 50k and there is now a 26k form backlog. That is pretty substantial. 26k forms in the que, checks cashed, and 9 examiners to process. It isn't going to level off anytime soon as the demand continues to grow.

So...moving forward...how do we approach this? I dare not speak for the industry as a whole unless the majority agreed upon action. Do we write letters? Maybe. Do we bring it to a big damn head? HELL NO. Not now. Not with this administration. I think we look at it as a job producing industry in a down economy and government regulation is killing further job growth. And for what? A hearing safety device.

This is a multi-teired task. It needs to start at the grass roots with education. You can't just write a Senator who has no exposure and is ignorant. That is where we get into trouble. We need intelligent discussions on the matter. We need a platform, and one is soon coming.
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silenced America</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with LL to an extent; you don't want to poke a sleeping bear. However, you don't want to sit idly by and do nothing. The thing that is different about today and way back when is the growing demand for suppressors. More and more first time guys are getting into owning cans. In 2007 there were not even 26k form 4s processed. In FY2011, there were well over 50k and there is now a 26k form backlog. That is pretty substantial. 26k forms in the que, checks cashed, and 9 examiners to process. It isn't going to level off anytime soon as the demand continues to grow.

So...moving forward...how do we approach this? I dare not speak for the industry as a whole unless the majority agreed upon action. Do we write letters? Maybe. Do we bring it to a big damn head? HELL NO. Not now. Not with this administration. I think we look at it as a job producing industry in a down economy and government regulation is killing further job growth. And for what? A hearing safety device.

This is a multi-teired task. It needs to start at the grass roots with education. You can't just write a Senator who has no exposure and is ignorant. That is where we get into trouble. We need intelligent discussions on the matter. We need a platform, and one is soon coming. </div></div>

i do agree that its a multi-tiered task, but when people on the "the other side" get wind of it, i believe it would be at least a 50% chance the tax stamps are raised at least somewhat to be in line with todays dollars. I agree that we do need to try and get something in place, but when we complain to each other about wait times, we are the 0.5% of firearms owners who know about these items.

Just today, a friend saw my paperwork and my rifles with the threaded barrels and was asking why i had them all threaded. I told him about the suppressors i have on the way and his reply was "wait, arent those illegal?"

im all for decreasing the wait time, and ill deal with the $200 stamp price for now, but i dont want to draw undue attention to this and get it raised to $3300 (the comparable price with inflation)
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Raider1v1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i do agree that its a multi-tiered task, but when people on the "the other side" get wind of it, i believe it would be at least a 50% chance the tax stamps are raised at least somewhat to be in line with todays dollars. I agree that we do need to try and get something in place, but when we complain to each other about wait times, we are the 0.5% of firearms owners who know about these items.

Just today, a friend saw my paperwork and my rifles with the threaded barrels and was asking why i had them all threaded. I told him about the suppressors i have on the way and his reply was "wait, arent those illegal?"

im all for decreasing the wait time, and ill deal with the $200 stamp price for now, but i dont want to draw undue attention to this and get it raised to $3300 (the comparable price with inflation)
</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="text-decoration: underline">EDUCATION</span></span></span>is the most important thing anyone who is in or near this industry can do. That, and being an AMBASSADOR to the community. I have seen too many people out at the range that are too cool to educate anyone else about their toys and I have had dealings with dealers who don't do much to help you join their "elite" club. Those days are dead. We need to share our passion (if you buy NFA goods, you are passionate about shooting) with others and help them join the club.
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!



<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="text-decoration: underline">EDUCATION</span></span></span>is the most important thing anyone who is in or near this industry can do. That, and being an AMBASSADOR to the community. I have seen too many people out at the range that are too cool to educate anyone else about their toys and I have had dealings with dealers who don't do much to help you join their "elite" club. Those days are dead. We need to share our passion (if you buy NFA goods, you are passionate about shooting) with others and help them join the club. [/quote]

I completely agree, and I always try and help people out at the range (who ask for it or who look like they are really struggling) and ill answer questions and let people take a few shots if they ask.
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

So you have a lot of cans...I'm happy for you.

The point of this thread is that the NFA process takes too long (I will reiterate that the NFA shouldn't even exist, and certainly shouldn't apply to suppressors) so what is the best way to encourage improvement without shooting ourself in the foot. Care to add to that with something other than the statement that you already have all the cans you need?

The more progress we make at the state level, the better, obviously, and better informed representatives and senators are more effective than lobbying the BATFE, etc.
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chainring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So you have a lot of cans...I'm happy for you.

The point of this thread is that the NFA process takes too long (I will reiterate that the NFA shouldn't even exist, and certainly shouldn't apply to suppressors) so what is the best way to encourage improvement without shooting ourself in the foot. Care to add to that with something other than the statement that you already have all the cans you need?

The more progress we make at the state level, the better, obviously, and better informed representatives and senators are more effective than lobbying the BATFE, etc.

</div></div>

Clearly you missed the point of my reference to having a lot... I have seen times fluctuate and change over the years, some times they go exactly 4 weeks, some times they go 4 months, some times they go longer... the fact this big slow down started over the summer doesn't changes the fact it has always swayed and things tend to level out.

As posted above education is definitely a key elements, and the fact that it is only NOW that the NRA and their lobbying machine is even starting to address Suppressors helps. A few guys bitching they had to wait 6 months and basically ordering the NFA Branch to hire more people because waiting sucks is only going to get a negative reaction. They will simply look at the history of suppressors, the fear factor and then realize, the tax stamp was there to discourage sales will more than likely do nothing but increase the fees to $3300 as it was put above. The will look at the precedence of suppressors from the past which was to discourage. YOU, yes by YOU I mean people like you chainring, have nothing to arm the NFA with, other than you want your can now because you feel it is your right. You need to educate them on things like hearing protection, positive business growth such as dealers, manufacturers, etc... individuals wanting something because they feel they are entitled to it is never met in a favorable fashion. Believe me they will sense the tone when you say they shouldn't exist and will certainly take offense. Their stick is bigger than yours.

Showing a positive business interest is key, highlighting that Europe promotes their use to protect the public is key, the NRA allowing them in competition is key. These are the factors that will make a splash, not Joe Bob from Texas feels he should be able to walk out of the shop the same day with his suppressor.

Demonstrations educating the public and politicians that suppressors are not tools of hit men and assassins, but a potential for job growth and employment. In fact exactly what they talk about everyday in the news, that this type of regulation suppresses jobs.

Being emotionally invested in the idea that the NFA shouldn't have any control of your idea of what you should or shouldn't; have isn't gonna win you any points, and if I was reading this, I would look at posts like yours and simply say, $3300 per tax stamp, 4 week wait = problem solved.
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chainring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So you have a lot of cans...I'm happy for you.

The point of this thread is that the NFA process takes too long (I will reiterate that the NFA shouldn't even exist, and certainly shouldn't apply to suppressors) so what is the best way to encourage improvement without shooting ourself in the foot. Care to add to that with something other than the statement that you already have all the cans you need?

The more progress we make at the state level, the better, obviously, and better informed representatives and senators are more effective than lobbying the BATFE, etc.

</div></div>

Clearly you missed the point of my reference to having a lot... I have seen times fluctuate and change over the years, some times they go exactly 4 weeks, some times they go 4 months, some times they go longer... the fact this big slow down started over the summer doesn't changes the fact it has always swayed and things tend to level out.

As posted above education is definitely a key elements, and the fact that it is only NOW that the NRA and their lobbying machine is even starting to address Suppressors helps. A few guys bitching they had to wait 6 months and basically ordering the NFA Branch to hire more people because waiting sucks is only going to get a negative reaction. They will simply look at the history of suppressors, the fear factor and then realize, the tax stamp was there to discourage sales will more than likely do nothing but increase the fees to $3300 as it was put above. The will look at the precedence of suppressors from the past which was to discourage. YOU, yes by YOU I mean people like you chainring, have nothing to arm the NFA with, other than you want your can now because you feel it is your right. You need to educate them on things like hearing protection, positive business growth such as dealers, manufacturers, etc... individuals wanting something because they feel they are entitled to it is never met in a favorable fashion. Believe me they will sense the tone when you say they shouldn't exist and will certainly take offense. Their stick is bigger than yours.

Showing a positive business interest is key, highlighting that Europe promotes their use to protect the public is key, the NRA allowing them in competition is key. These are the factors that will make a splash, not Joe Bob from Texas feels he should be able to walk out of the shop the same day with his suppressor.

Demonstrations educating the public and politicians that suppressors are not tools of hit men and assassins, but a potential for job growth and employment. In fact exactly what they talk about everyday in the news, that this type of regulation suppresses jobs.

Being emotionally invested in the idea that the NFA shouldn't have any control of your idea of what you should or shouldn't; have isn't gonna win you any points, and if I was reading this, I would look at posts like yours and simply say, $3300 per tax stamp, 4 week wait = problem solved. </div></div>

Best post on this subject yet. I agree. As you can see I am waiting on a can myself. Last thing we want is a knee jerk reaction to an impatient over reaction. It would not be good for any one but them.
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I had a lengthy conversation with one of the largest retailers in suppressors today, Bryon Gaston at M3. He told me they are seeing HUGE increases in paperwork lately and losing one examiner really put a hurting on them. They are processing about 1k forms more then they normally do and that is hurting all aspects of approval times. The government wont let them hire more because of budget cuts and we are all feeling it.

I believe that the more the individual collector tries to stir the pot with the ATF/NFA the worst the results could be for us. Industry Professionals and business owners should be the ones harping on them for long wait times and not streamlining their process. What ever happened to their "paperwork reduction act"?
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

That's more like it.

My first NFA purchase was years ago, and was followed by several more since, so I'm familiar with the ebb and flow of lead times. Your earlier post sure sounded like a fella with a lot of cans downplaying the need for advocating any improvement. Submit and forget, and all that. I'm relieved to see that I was wrong? My reading comprehension is usually pretty good, even for a "Joe Bob from Texas." (We can't all be from Texas, no need to be defensive about it! :)) We really need guys like you helping to spread the concept of an orderly push for a better system, rather than encouraging people to not worry about it. I completely understand your hesitation to bring too much of the wrong attention to the issue - on the other hand, simply hoping for the best just doesn't seem to be working. With more and more NFA activity, they are actively downsizing with no plans to hire more examiners. It's a problem.

For the record, such as it is, I'm not encouraging individual owners to call and rant at any government entity. I DO, whole-heartedly, support the concept of dealers/manufacturers banding together in an informed, diplomatic, and ordered manner to lobby for a refined system that works better for them, us, the government, and the taxpayer. In fact, were an NRA-like organization to be started for that purpose, I would jump at the chance to be a paying member. Even better, perhaps, would be for the NRA to continue and expand their new focus on suppressors. I would re-double my contributions to them, in addition to being a life member.



 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

Asking the government to be more efficient is like asking a fat kid to put down the cake. Just isn’t happening.

I am getting some cans, SBR stuff done while I can.

Would I like it to be more efficient? Sure! Do I think the revenue generated should be used better, sure! Many problems exist within the BATFE and the Federal Government as a whole. The

It’s the government they will find a way to charge more, take longer and provide less. No if you can solve that problem, you can fix this one.
 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

I would like to see the nfa times drop too, BUT I think you guys will wake a sleeping bear here.

In the fishing industry fisherman ask for higher quota since the biologists say the fisheries can handle it. The government ends up totally removing the species from the commercial fishery and bending over the fishermen.

 
Re: PROBLEMS AT THE NFA BRANCH?!

They should have an expedited option. Like passports. For instance, pay 300 for an expedited tax stamp and get your papers back in 1 months time. Just a thought.