In spite of using a RCBS small base die {or Lee, or Hornady full length size die} I'm having problems with my 223 reloads not going all the way into battery/bolt not going all the way home. I'm sizing everything I can get into the die. Forward assist gets all rounds into battery but unless fired round/s are hard to get out...requires a lot of pressure or a bump on the charge handle to remove. Not all rounds give problems. I'm using mostly LC brass. Have been loading for several years but I'm about stumped. Can't help but suspect that dies aren't bringing brass back to spec. ?
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problems with 223/5.56 reloads
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Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
check your bullet seater die and make sure that its not hitting the shoulder and causing a bulge at the shoulder body edge made that mistake more than once.
its easy to measure the shoulder on one that get s stuck or run your fingers from base to the neck for the most part you can feel this.
Hope this helps
check your bullet seater die and make sure that its not hitting the shoulder and causing a bulge at the shoulder body edge made that mistake more than once.
its easy to measure the shoulder on one that get s stuck or run your fingers from base to the neck for the most part you can feel this.
Hope this helps
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
Yep, familiar with that - have learned to watch for it. Most {or some} of the time I can feel it when it happens. Its a good answer and a common cause of the problem I'm having but...not this time. Thanks for the reply.
still stumped
Yep, familiar with that - have learned to watch for it. Most {or some} of the time I can feel it when it happens. Its a good answer and a common cause of the problem I'm having but...not this time. Thanks for the reply.
still stumped
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MJC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have an RCBS Precision Mic? They are great for checking "as fired" and "resized" cartridge headspace. </div></div>
Nope. I have a Frankford Arsenal {Midway USA} cartridge guage. Headspace is not the problem...forward assist will send them into battery. I've noticed a *very* small flat spot on some cartridges at the bottom of the shoulder/top of the wall area but not all problem cartridges have this. I've looked at the brass through an 8x magnifying glass trying to find any scuffed areas marking the source of tightness. Am thinking about buying some undersize dies from Lee. Don't worry I know the consequences. I'll send them some sized and some fired cases prior to doing this.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MJC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have an RCBS Precision Mic? They are great for checking "as fired" and "resized" cartridge headspace. </div></div>
Nope. I have a Frankford Arsenal {Midway USA} cartridge guage. Headspace is not the problem...forward assist will send them into battery. I've noticed a *very* small flat spot on some cartridges at the bottom of the shoulder/top of the wall area but not all problem cartridges have this. I've looked at the brass through an 8x magnifying glass trying to find any scuffed areas marking the source of tightness. Am thinking about buying some undersize dies from Lee. Don't worry I know the consequences. I'll send them some sized and some fired cases prior to doing this.
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
I have the same isses. I figured it was a case length, or a small burr around the case mouth, after trimming. It usually happens when chambering the first round from the mag. Once cleared, that round goes back into the mag, feeds and ejects properly. Now that I see that happening, I'm taking more care in case prep. I'm taking 3 or 4 rounds out of a hundred, and always the first round from the mag, so I blamed my lack of attention to detail. Most of my brass is picked up on the range, and requires additional attention for the first firing.
Reading this, I'll check to see if my sizer die is set to camber over the base of the case, as I trim to minimum, per the Lyman trim to length. Using Dillon 550.
I have the same isses. I figured it was a case length, or a small burr around the case mouth, after trimming. It usually happens when chambering the first round from the mag. Once cleared, that round goes back into the mag, feeds and ejects properly. Now that I see that happening, I'm taking more care in case prep. I'm taking 3 or 4 rounds out of a hundred, and always the first round from the mag, so I blamed my lack of attention to detail. Most of my brass is picked up on the range, and requires additional attention for the first firing.
Reading this, I'll check to see if my sizer die is set to camber over the base of the case, as I trim to minimum, per the Lyman trim to length. Using Dillon 550.
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
Will a sized empty case chamber freely? If a sized empty case chambers more freely than a loaded round than I would suspect a problem in the bullet seating die step of the process. If your freshly sized empty brass does not chamber freely, obviously, something not right during that stage of the process. I'd walk through the above to see where the problem developes so you can narrow your search.
Have you tried some fractory loaded ammo in your chamber? I've building ARs for nearly 20 years (for myself) and have had new barrels with chamber problems, from improperly cut, to a fine layer of lapping compound being left in the chamber from the factory. One of the tell tail signs of this is failure to eject requiring significant manual force on the charging handle to clear the fired case from the chamber.
HTH,
Craig P. in MO
aka 21Bravo
Will a sized empty case chamber freely? If a sized empty case chambers more freely than a loaded round than I would suspect a problem in the bullet seating die step of the process. If your freshly sized empty brass does not chamber freely, obviously, something not right during that stage of the process. I'd walk through the above to see where the problem developes so you can narrow your search.
Have you tried some fractory loaded ammo in your chamber? I've building ARs for nearly 20 years (for myself) and have had new barrels with chamber problems, from improperly cut, to a fine layer of lapping compound being left in the chamber from the factory. One of the tell tail signs of this is failure to eject requiring significant manual force on the charging handle to clear the fired case from the chamber.
HTH,
Craig P. in MO
aka 21Bravo
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
Two questions;
What is the OAL of your cartridges?
How clean is the chamber of that rifle?
Two questions;
What is the OAL of your cartridges?
How clean is the chamber of that rifle?
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
The vast majority of the time, this kind of problem is the sholder position--that is, the sholder moves forward when the base of the case is squeezed smaller. Thus, the die was not set up (down actualy) far enough.
The vast majority of the time, this kind of problem is the sholder position--that is, the sholder moves forward when the base of the case is squeezed smaller. Thus, the die was not set up (down actualy) far enough.
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
Gentlemen. Thanks for all the replies.
Gnfiter3 - I too use a lot of range brass, that and once fired from midway when available. I size, trim to minimum length {1.75}, chamfer and debur case mouth, and debur the primer flashhole. On brass I haven't fired in my gun yet, I size with a RCBS small base die just in case brass was fired in a SAW/full auto gun. The brass I'm having problems with has been fired twice {once in my gun} and I'm also using a Dillon 550.
21bravo, Craig - I almost feel like a dummy for not having tried your suggestion prior to posting here. However both a sized and a loaded round *freely* fall home in my chamber with a distinct "tink" sound. Round will move freely with only a fingernail's touch. ? I have no problems with fired rounds extracting - only removing rounds that do not go fully into battery. To complicate things more, I have 10 rounds of factory ammo that all cycle freely when manually chambered - all go fully into battery - all extract OK. But...the tight spot is where the bolt & carrier move the last little bit forward - as the bolt makes it's turn left. Note that forward assist will send all rounds into battery...manual extraction isn't easy.
Queequeg - I haven't checked OAL but I suspect it's less than 2.26 as all rounds fit into the magazine. I'm seating into the cannelure of a 62g fmjscbt / ss109 steel core type bullet. The chamber is clean. My friends say I go overboard cleaning my guns. *However* I have only had my bolt out of the carrier once in about 500 rounds.
MitchAlsup - I size every bit of the brass that I can get into the die...i.e., die down as far as possible.
My questions now turn to the recoil spring in the stock and the bolt/bolt carrier. The recoil spring is not consistently free from the most collapsed point forward. Should it be lubed with a bit of graphite? Also, theres the question of the bolt's turning freely inside the carrier {at the last bit of forward movement of the carrier}. What about the alignment of the rings around the bolt *of which I know very little about*.
Thanks again for the replies.
Steven in Northport, AL
Gentlemen. Thanks for all the replies.
Gnfiter3 - I too use a lot of range brass, that and once fired from midway when available. I size, trim to minimum length {1.75}, chamfer and debur case mouth, and debur the primer flashhole. On brass I haven't fired in my gun yet, I size with a RCBS small base die just in case brass was fired in a SAW/full auto gun. The brass I'm having problems with has been fired twice {once in my gun} and I'm also using a Dillon 550.
21bravo, Craig - I almost feel like a dummy for not having tried your suggestion prior to posting here. However both a sized and a loaded round *freely* fall home in my chamber with a distinct "tink" sound. Round will move freely with only a fingernail's touch. ? I have no problems with fired rounds extracting - only removing rounds that do not go fully into battery. To complicate things more, I have 10 rounds of factory ammo that all cycle freely when manually chambered - all go fully into battery - all extract OK. But...the tight spot is where the bolt & carrier move the last little bit forward - as the bolt makes it's turn left. Note that forward assist will send all rounds into battery...manual extraction isn't easy.
Queequeg - I haven't checked OAL but I suspect it's less than 2.26 as all rounds fit into the magazine. I'm seating into the cannelure of a 62g fmjscbt / ss109 steel core type bullet. The chamber is clean. My friends say I go overboard cleaning my guns. *However* I have only had my bolt out of the carrier once in about 500 rounds.
MitchAlsup - I size every bit of the brass that I can get into the die...i.e., die down as far as possible.
My questions now turn to the recoil spring in the stock and the bolt/bolt carrier. The recoil spring is not consistently free from the most collapsed point forward. Should it be lubed with a bit of graphite? Also, theres the question of the bolt's turning freely inside the carrier {at the last bit of forward movement of the carrier}. What about the alignment of the rings around the bolt *of which I know very little about*.
Thanks again for the replies.
Steven in Northport, AL
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
Not sure if this will help you or not but we had some rounds that we purchased locally from a small supplier. We had some of the same problems you are having, some rounds would feed flawlessly and some would need the forward assist to slam them home and were a pain to remove if not fired. We found that by going through some of the rounds that the ones that would chamber hard the bullets were seated slightly crooked. Seen this by rolling them across the table and could see the bullet wobble pretty bad. The only conclusion we came to was that there might have been a piece of media or something in the shell holder that wouldn't let the brass sit right in the press or something in the die.
Not sure if this will help you or not but we had some rounds that we purchased locally from a small supplier. We had some of the same problems you are having, some rounds would feed flawlessly and some would need the forward assist to slam them home and were a pain to remove if not fired. We found that by going through some of the rounds that the ones that would chamber hard the bullets were seated slightly crooked. Seen this by rolling them across the table and could see the bullet wobble pretty bad. The only conclusion we came to was that there might have been a piece of media or something in the shell holder that wouldn't let the brass sit right in the press or something in the die.
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
Shackles,
A case guage should remove any doubts about the ability of your reloads to chamber. It is also possible to overly resize your brass too so be mindful of possible excess head space issues if you crank the die too far down. Also mixed brass will resize differently when reloading in unsegregated batches.
Your buffer spring and buffer should travel fully, all the way back to it's limit. Your bolt should fully articulate within the carrier. I'd pull it, give it a quick cleaning and lube it with some 30 weight and see if you still have failure to feed issues.
Shackles,
A case guage should remove any doubts about the ability of your reloads to chamber. It is also possible to overly resize your brass too so be mindful of possible excess head space issues if you crank the die too far down. Also mixed brass will resize differently when reloading in unsegregated batches.
Your buffer spring and buffer should travel fully, all the way back to it's limit. Your bolt should fully articulate within the carrier. I'd pull it, give it a quick cleaning and lube it with some 30 weight and see if you still have failure to feed issues.
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
NO ! ! ! DO NOT USE GRAPHITE ! ! ! ! ! You are only asking for more problems with GRAPHITE. There are many acceptable lubes but I personally use Mobil 1 Synthetic Motor oil 0W20 or 0W30. You can also put several drops in gas port openings and it will keep your carbon build up down and help dissolve carbon.
Mitchalsup has the answer I believe. I have researched the Frankford Arsenal/Midway site and all I can find is a CASE LENGTH GAGE made by them. Most case gages measure the overall length and do not tell you the whole situation which is how far has the shoulder gone forward on firing and how far is it beyond the unfired condition after FL sizing.
There may be others but the only CASE GAGE I know that tells all you need to know is the L.E. Wilson Case Gage (also available from Midway, Sinclair etc) which tells several things beyond overall length, it also gives you positive location of the shoulder location. You can have perfect over all length but if the shoulder is still too far foward you are going to have to force it in the chamber which by your description is exactly what is happening.
HOW TO TELL IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM: if you DON'T have to force a new unfired round in and you HAVE TO FORCE A RELOADED round in that screams there is another problem. Just dropping a loaded round in a chamber only tells us if the round is small enough diameter wise and tells nothing about how much longer the shoulder to base dimensions are. As someone pointed out when you squeeze the base the case has to get longer. If the neck got longer does it not also say the shoulder got longer?
Until you get a true case gage that tells you three things you don't know where you are. The Wilson will tell you if the body is small enough to go in any chamber. Next it will tell you if the shoulder has been returned to new condition and will also tell you if you are oversizing the case and this is determined by feel. Basically if you can feel the rim below the upper surface of the gage you are good to go. Likewise if you feel the case above the NO GO area you are in the perfect range.
At the same time if you see/feel the case mouth sticking out other end above the high point you are too long. Since the gage you have says the OAL is OK then you need to know where your shoulder goes to after firing and after sizing.
A Mo gage can tell you this quickly and will tell you exactly what a new round shoulder locates, where a fired round shoulder stops and where a resized shoulder goe when sized.
You can go several ways here. Get the Wilson Case Gage and you will see for yourself, send the die back to RCBS with about a dozen empty cases NOT SIZED or you can trim the bottom of the die yourself. Some place a shell holder on emery cloth and flat surface and rub it back and for thinning the top of the shell holder down which obviously will allow the case to go further up in the die or you can get someone with a lathe to trim the bottom of the die.
I have about 53 sets of dies and I have had to trim the bottom off about 14 of them as they were chambered too deep.
If you are going to reload and pick up brass from everywhere you need a Wilson Case Gage. Until you try them in a Wilson case gage you don't know where you are or what is doing it to you.
NO ! ! ! DO NOT USE GRAPHITE ! ! ! ! ! You are only asking for more problems with GRAPHITE. There are many acceptable lubes but I personally use Mobil 1 Synthetic Motor oil 0W20 or 0W30. You can also put several drops in gas port openings and it will keep your carbon build up down and help dissolve carbon.
Mitchalsup has the answer I believe. I have researched the Frankford Arsenal/Midway site and all I can find is a CASE LENGTH GAGE made by them. Most case gages measure the overall length and do not tell you the whole situation which is how far has the shoulder gone forward on firing and how far is it beyond the unfired condition after FL sizing.
There may be others but the only CASE GAGE I know that tells all you need to know is the L.E. Wilson Case Gage (also available from Midway, Sinclair etc) which tells several things beyond overall length, it also gives you positive location of the shoulder location. You can have perfect over all length but if the shoulder is still too far foward you are going to have to force it in the chamber which by your description is exactly what is happening.
HOW TO TELL IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM: if you DON'T have to force a new unfired round in and you HAVE TO FORCE A RELOADED round in that screams there is another problem. Just dropping a loaded round in a chamber only tells us if the round is small enough diameter wise and tells nothing about how much longer the shoulder to base dimensions are. As someone pointed out when you squeeze the base the case has to get longer. If the neck got longer does it not also say the shoulder got longer?
Until you get a true case gage that tells you three things you don't know where you are. The Wilson will tell you if the body is small enough to go in any chamber. Next it will tell you if the shoulder has been returned to new condition and will also tell you if you are oversizing the case and this is determined by feel. Basically if you can feel the rim below the upper surface of the gage you are good to go. Likewise if you feel the case above the NO GO area you are in the perfect range.
At the same time if you see/feel the case mouth sticking out other end above the high point you are too long. Since the gage you have says the OAL is OK then you need to know where your shoulder goes to after firing and after sizing.
A Mo gage can tell you this quickly and will tell you exactly what a new round shoulder locates, where a fired round shoulder stops and where a resized shoulder goe when sized.
You can go several ways here. Get the Wilson Case Gage and you will see for yourself, send the die back to RCBS with about a dozen empty cases NOT SIZED or you can trim the bottom of the die yourself. Some place a shell holder on emery cloth and flat surface and rub it back and for thinning the top of the shell holder down which obviously will allow the case to go further up in the die or you can get someone with a lathe to trim the bottom of the die.
I have about 53 sets of dies and I have had to trim the bottom off about 14 of them as they were chambered too deep.
If you are going to reload and pick up brass from everywhere you need a Wilson Case Gage. Until you try them in a Wilson case gage you don't know where you are or what is doing it to you.
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
Btw, my barrel is a Shaw competition barrel. Thought I'd better clarify this.
murrdog - I'm using a Hornady new dimension bullet seating die which doesn't push on the bullet tip. This die pushes on the ogive to seat the bullet.
Queequeg - i went to the local gunsmith/friend and we lubed the recoil spring with some dry spray type lube...forget what he called it. Also see reply to Hummer below re case guage.
Hummer - I went to a friend who has a Wilson case guage and borrowed it. However, using *either* guage, I can pretty much tell whether a cartridge will fit or not. Also I found a 223 shell holder that I had removed about .040 from the top some time ago. It seems the dies {Lee, RCBS small base & Hornady} are *not* setting the shoulder back far enough. I have removed the de-priming pin from the sizing die and ran several loaded rounds through the die. Note that best results are with the Lee die. They will now feed in all 3 firearms that previously would not accept said cartridges. With a factory shell holder the brass can't be sent far enough into the die to set the shoulder back properly. Next I will size/load several empty cases. Then I think it's time to call Lee, RCBS, and Hornady and request they repair my sizing die and/or make me one that does the job. I agree with trimming the bottom of the die but this a problem that Lee, RCBS and Hornady should take care of in my opinion. Now I have about 1500 loaded rounds to check some of which will have to be raan through the die again. At least now I can rest knowing what the problem is.
Btw, my barrel is a Shaw competition barrel. Thought I'd better clarify this.
murrdog - I'm using a Hornady new dimension bullet seating die which doesn't push on the bullet tip. This die pushes on the ogive to seat the bullet.
Queequeg - i went to the local gunsmith/friend and we lubed the recoil spring with some dry spray type lube...forget what he called it. Also see reply to Hummer below re case guage.
Hummer - I went to a friend who has a Wilson case guage and borrowed it. However, using *either* guage, I can pretty much tell whether a cartridge will fit or not. Also I found a 223 shell holder that I had removed about .040 from the top some time ago. It seems the dies {Lee, RCBS small base & Hornady} are *not* setting the shoulder back far enough. I have removed the de-priming pin from the sizing die and ran several loaded rounds through the die. Note that best results are with the Lee die. They will now feed in all 3 firearms that previously would not accept said cartridges. With a factory shell holder the brass can't be sent far enough into the die to set the shoulder back properly. Next I will size/load several empty cases. Then I think it's time to call Lee, RCBS, and Hornady and request they repair my sizing die and/or make me one that does the job. I agree with trimming the bottom of the die but this a problem that Lee, RCBS and Hornady should take care of in my opinion. Now I have about 1500 loaded rounds to check some of which will have to be raan through the die again. At least now I can rest knowing what the problem is.
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
I had similar issues and what I did to fix it is I screwed the die all the way down until it contacted the bottom plate then went about a 1/2 turn furthur down. I use a 550 also and fixed the problem right away. It requires a little more force on the press but you wont hurt the press or the die.
I had similar issues and what I did to fix it is I screwed the die all the way down until it contacted the bottom plate then went about a 1/2 turn furthur down. I use a 550 also and fixed the problem right away. It requires a little more force on the press but you wont hurt the press or the die.
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
Shackles, yep it is their problem and you are down for a while till you get it back. That is where I am lucky to have a lathe and can do "their" work for them and save the shipping. It gripes me to have to spend the five bucks to mail it to them. I have multiple shell holders for a given cartridge and regardless of which I start with I run them in Mo Gage for .001 to .002 set back and or drop them in Wilson Gage if I am going to FL for "any rifle".
Another good lube you can make yourself is Ed's Red. I make up 1 11/2 gal at a shot. 1/2 gal K1 Kerosene, 1/2 gal Mercon Dexron Trans fluid, 1/2 gal Mineral Spirits. I have three quart spray bottles from Home Depot and I keep it in three places, at the range, in the shop and in the loading area. You can clean bores, lube locks, clean carbon, lube sights etc and it won't gum up like some do. I have left it in bore 14 months stored muzzle down and borescope showed it still to be wet. It should be good on firearms to about -55 below zero.
In below zero Ed's Red or LAW is the only thing I will put on a rifle. I have seen lube advertised to be cold weather completely stop weapons from firing at as little as -15.
Shackles, yep it is their problem and you are down for a while till you get it back. That is where I am lucky to have a lathe and can do "their" work for them and save the shipping. It gripes me to have to spend the five bucks to mail it to them. I have multiple shell holders for a given cartridge and regardless of which I start with I run them in Mo Gage for .001 to .002 set back and or drop them in Wilson Gage if I am going to FL for "any rifle".
Another good lube you can make yourself is Ed's Red. I make up 1 11/2 gal at a shot. 1/2 gal K1 Kerosene, 1/2 gal Mercon Dexron Trans fluid, 1/2 gal Mineral Spirits. I have three quart spray bottles from Home Depot and I keep it in three places, at the range, in the shop and in the loading area. You can clean bores, lube locks, clean carbon, lube sights etc and it won't gum up like some do. I have left it in bore 14 months stored muzzle down and borescope showed it still to be wet. It should be good on firearms to about -55 below zero.
In below zero Ed's Red or LAW is the only thing I will put on a rifle. I have seen lube advertised to be cold weather completely stop weapons from firing at as little as -15.
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
Check shoulder bump and inspect for shoulder/body junction swell (set back in an AR should be .003-.005 inches). <span style="font-weight: bold">Remove lubricants from sized cases</span>. Trim cases to minimum. Inspect the cartridge OAL off the bullet ogive and adjust to safe limits.
Clean chamber and throat, paying special attention to the lead. Properly lubricate the bolt.
Check shoulder bump and inspect for shoulder/body junction swell (set back in an AR should be .003-.005 inches). <span style="font-weight: bold">Remove lubricants from sized cases</span>. Trim cases to minimum. Inspect the cartridge OAL off the bullet ogive and adjust to safe limits.
Clean chamber and throat, paying special attention to the lead. Properly lubricate the bolt.
Re: problems with 223/5.56 reloads
3 die manufacturers all wrong? I'm thinking maybe you have a tighter than spec chamber,
brass that is too hard and springing or maybe over crimping, carbon in the throat.
It just seems unlikely that 3 sets of dies from 3 manufacturers are wrong. Stranger
things have happened I guess.
3 die manufacturers all wrong? I'm thinking maybe you have a tighter than spec chamber,
brass that is too hard and springing or maybe over crimping, carbon in the throat.
It just seems unlikely that 3 sets of dies from 3 manufacturers are wrong. Stranger
things have happened I guess.
