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Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
- Thread starter Mag 300
- Start date
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
Out of curiosity, what triggers the dump to the funnel? Is it some sort of pressure from the cart pushing up on the funnel or some other switch or what?
Out of curiosity, what triggers the dump to the funnel? Is it some sort of pressure from the cart pushing up on the funnel or some other switch or what?
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Out of curiosity, what triggers the dump to the funnel? Is it some sort of pressure from the cart pushing up on the funnel or some other switch or what?
</div></div>
It reads your mind.....it's that good.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Out of curiosity, what triggers the dump to the funnel? Is it some sort of pressure from the cart pushing up on the funnel or some other switch or what?
</div></div>
It reads your mind.....it's that good.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
when the powder measure handle goes down it drops a charge into the case, when the measure handle goes up it refils the scale pan.
when the powder measure handle goes down it drops a charge into the case, when the measure handle goes up it refils the scale pan.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
WOW thread went from interests in reloading more accurately to dis beleif to Dildo's to its a mouse trap then to wow how do it worky!!!!!!!!
Priceless
WOW thread went from interests in reloading more accurately to dis beleif to Dildo's to its a mouse trap then to wow how do it worky!!!!!!!!
Priceless
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sawhornsoff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Prometheus 2 units are leased from Brand Cole. Given the length of the lease, the device is going to be with the person paying the price possibly longer than he/she may live. The reason for leasing the unit is to prevent people from commercially reloading with the unit. The commercial reloader could use the unit to create precise, consistent ammo efficiently and Brand does not want that happening. It is truely that remarkable of a device. </div></div>
Why would he care if a commercial reloader used his device?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sawhornsoff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Prometheus 2 units are leased from Brand Cole. Given the length of the lease, the device is going to be with the person paying the price possibly longer than he/she may live. The reason for leasing the unit is to prevent people from commercially reloading with the unit. The commercial reloader could use the unit to create precise, consistent ammo efficiently and Brand does not want that happening. It is truely that remarkable of a device. </div></div>
Why would he care if a commercial reloader used his device?
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
Thats just to F.N gay I guess when he or she get's done loading they go for a ride.
Thats just to F.N gay I guess when he or she get's done loading they go for a ride.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
Rafael because there is 1 company that has Gin 1s that load ammo for sale.
They dont tell any one thats what they use beause people would go find there own Gin1 and save money in the long run thats one reason I wont sell my Gin 1 .
Gin 2 is set up the way it is so if some one wanted to make money with it.
It would be leased by the month for a lot more money and I dont see anything wrong with that.
Rafael because there is 1 company that has Gin 1s that load ammo for sale.
They dont tell any one thats what they use beause people would go find there own Gin1 and save money in the long run thats one reason I wont sell my Gin 1 .
Gin 2 is set up the way it is so if some one wanted to make money with it.
It would be leased by the month for a lot more money and I dont see anything wrong with that.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
His pricing structure is entirely up to him, no problem there. Of course I don't believe there is such a thing as price-gouging, ever.
The price is up to the seller, noone is forcing them to buy it.
Your earlier statement made it sound like he would not allow any commercial reloader to use his gear. If I understand you correctly; it is allowed, but the lease is written and priced differently.
His pricing structure is entirely up to him, no problem there. Of course I don't believe there is such a thing as price-gouging, ever.
The price is up to the seller, noone is forcing them to buy it.
Your earlier statement made it sound like he would not allow any commercial reloader to use his gear. If I understand you correctly; it is allowed, but the lease is written and priced differently.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
All this needs is a little BANJO MUSIC!!!!!!!!!
All this needs is a little BANJO MUSIC!!!!!!!!!
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">many champions with many trophy's are sitting back right now snickering as they dust off the loot. </div></div>
I'm honestly curious...
Besides Tubb... who? What sports/venues? Which events?
Not discounting Tubb, but he's the most 'visible' user via his books and his track record. Otherwise... 99% of the 'noise' that I hear about the units is here on SH, from a select few owners (most of whom are represented in this thread). I don't see/hear much about them in other forums - usually someone asks, and either blanches at the price or gets referred here.
I'm not saying they don't work or aren't worth it; if someone gave me one or if I came into enough spare $$$ I'd sure give it a go just for the gadget factor...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">many champions with many trophy's are sitting back right now snickering as they dust off the loot. </div></div>
I'm honestly curious...
Besides Tubb... who? What sports/venues? Which events?
Not discounting Tubb, but he's the most 'visible' user via his books and his track record. Otherwise... 99% of the 'noise' that I hear about the units is here on SH, from a select few owners (most of whom are represented in this thread). I don't see/hear much about them in other forums - usually someone asks, and either blanches at the price or gets referred here.
I'm not saying they don't work or aren't worth it; if someone gave me one or if I came into enough spare $$$ I'd sure give it a go just for the gadget factor...
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">many champions with many trophy's are sitting back right now snickering as they dust off the loot. </div></div>
I'm honestly curious...
Besides Tubb... who? What sports/venues? Which events?
Not discounting Tubb, but he's the most 'visible' user via his books and his track record. Otherwise... 99% of the 'noise' that I hear about the units is here on SH, from a select few owners (most of whom are represented in this thread). I don't see/hear much about them in other forums - usually someone asks, and either blanches at the price or gets referred here.
I'm not saying they don't work or aren't worth it; if someone gave me one or if I came into enough spare $$$ I'd sure give it a go just for the gadget factor...
</div></div>
Keep in mind that he started selling these in the late 90s, there are probably more Gen I units out there than you might think, I seem to remember a few of them have been shipped outside the US as well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">many champions with many trophy's are sitting back right now snickering as they dust off the loot. </div></div>
I'm honestly curious...
Besides Tubb... who? What sports/venues? Which events?
Not discounting Tubb, but he's the most 'visible' user via his books and his track record. Otherwise... 99% of the 'noise' that I hear about the units is here on SH, from a select few owners (most of whom are represented in this thread). I don't see/hear much about them in other forums - usually someone asks, and either blanches at the price or gets referred here.
I'm not saying they don't work or aren't worth it; if someone gave me one or if I came into enough spare $$$ I'd sure give it a go just for the gadget factor...
</div></div>
Keep in mind that he started selling these in the late 90s, there are probably more Gen I units out there than you might think, I seem to remember a few of them have been shipped outside the US as well.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dan46n2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about buying 10 Chargemasters for the price of the Prometheus, that would be a lot faster.</div></div>
That would probably be no more precise than just using a good volumetric thrower. Would be interesting to see how much variation you would get with among the Chargemasters even if you calibrated with the some weights.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dan46n2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about buying 10 Chargemasters for the price of the Prometheus, that would be a lot faster.</div></div>
That would probably be no more precise than just using a good volumetric thrower. Would be interesting to see how much variation you would get with among the Chargemasters even if you calibrated with the some weights.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sawhornsoff</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dan46n2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about buying 10 Chargemasters for the price of the Prometheus, that would be a lot faster.</div></div>
That would probably be no more precise than just using a good volumetric thrower. Would be interesting to see how much variation you would get with among the Chargemasters even if you calibrated with the some weights.</div></div>
I calibrate my two with the same weights, they work fairly well. I think I'm going to buy an VIC-123 and see how close they are, then give you Prometheus guys a run for your money
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sawhornsoff</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dan46n2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about buying 10 Chargemasters for the price of the Prometheus, that would be a lot faster.</div></div>
That would probably be no more precise than just using a good volumetric thrower. Would be interesting to see how much variation you would get with among the Chargemasters even if you calibrated with the some weights.</div></div>
I calibrate my two with the same weights, they work fairly well. I think I'm going to buy an VIC-123 and see how close they are, then give you Prometheus guys a run for your money
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I understand you correctly; it is allowed, but the lease is written and priced differently.</div></div>
Yes that is correct. I don't know what Brand has planned on a commercial lease but if it was me I would get a royalty on every round loaded on a P2.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I understand you correctly; it is allowed, but the lease is written and priced differently.</div></div>
Yes that is correct. I don't know what Brand has planned on a commercial lease but if it was me I would get a royalty on every round loaded on a P2.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why would he care if a commercial reloader used his device? </div></div>
Brand wants to lease them to commercial ammo makers. I think he wants more than the measely $10/mo we are paying for one (that's two packs of ciggies in CA for the pneumonically challenged) - makes sense to me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I'm going to buy an VIC-123 and see how close they are, then give you Prometheus guys a run for your money </div></div>
As I've said, it's not about accuracy, it's about time, tedium, and confidence in your ammo. I WAS using a Denver 123 scale and it took too much time and effort.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why would he care if a commercial reloader used his device? </div></div>
Brand wants to lease them to commercial ammo makers. I think he wants more than the measely $10/mo we are paying for one (that's two packs of ciggies in CA for the pneumonically challenged) - makes sense to me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I'm going to buy an VIC-123 and see how close they are, then give you Prometheus guys a run for your money </div></div>
As I've said, it's not about accuracy, it's about time, tedium, and confidence in your ammo. I WAS using a Denver 123 scale and it took too much time and effort.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I calibrate my two with the same weights, they work fairly well. I think I'm going to buy an VIC-123 and see how close they are, then give you Prometheus guys a run for your money
</div></div>
I think the VIC-123 will be enlightening.
I loaded on a Chargemaster for 2 years and had to really work at it to get +/- 0.1 grain precision. You can't just accept your charge when it beeps. You have to wait for the final weight to register. Frequently it would dump too much as an avalanche of powder kernals would fall from the trickler tube. Also digital scale drift was another issue.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I calibrate my two with the same weights, they work fairly well. I think I'm going to buy an VIC-123 and see how close they are, then give you Prometheus guys a run for your money
I think the VIC-123 will be enlightening.
I loaded on a Chargemaster for 2 years and had to really work at it to get +/- 0.1 grain precision. You can't just accept your charge when it beeps. You have to wait for the final weight to register. Frequently it would dump too much as an avalanche of powder kernals would fall from the trickler tube. Also digital scale drift was another issue.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
I copied this off a post I had here last week. I can promise you, not getting the rifle back on your shoulder in the same position will give you more problems than 2 kernels of powder over or under. If I was making ammo for the public I would love to have one but as long as I only do 100 or 200 at a time I'm fine with the Chargemasters. As far as the scale drift you may have to do like my brother. He builds static or something because ours does that with him sometimes but has never done it with me. If he pulls his boots off it stops.......
Well I haven't tested our scales in a long, long time. I ran up 150 loads for the 243 and 50 for the 308 in the last couple of days. I double checked each load against my 10-10's and the most variance I saw the white line on the arm might be just above or just below the 0 line but still touching. Can't be much better than that. When we first got these year before last we calibrated on about every load session and double checked loads all the time. Can't even remember the last time I did that and unless something strange happens doubt I will ever do it again! I just wanted to be sure they are as good as I think they are because of the questions I've seen on them lately. Go to midway and see what everyday people have to say on them. Think there is way over a 100 reviews and most all of them are 4 or 5 stars....
I think it's fair to tell what powders they were since they all meter pretty well.....IMR-4831, AA2520, and H100V. Long stick powders have a habit of overdraws because a lot of powder will bunch up in the tube....Somewhere we found a tip about using a piece of a Micky Dee's straw in the tube and that helps a lot, clip off about 3/8" and stick in the end of the dribbler. A little scoop to dip some works well but I've found after a long time of using these things I can pinch what I need to take out with out much problem at all.
I copied this off a post I had here last week. I can promise you, not getting the rifle back on your shoulder in the same position will give you more problems than 2 kernels of powder over or under. If I was making ammo for the public I would love to have one but as long as I only do 100 or 200 at a time I'm fine with the Chargemasters. As far as the scale drift you may have to do like my brother. He builds static or something because ours does that with him sometimes but has never done it with me. If he pulls his boots off it stops.......
Well I haven't tested our scales in a long, long time. I ran up 150 loads for the 243 and 50 for the 308 in the last couple of days. I double checked each load against my 10-10's and the most variance I saw the white line on the arm might be just above or just below the 0 line but still touching. Can't be much better than that. When we first got these year before last we calibrated on about every load session and double checked loads all the time. Can't even remember the last time I did that and unless something strange happens doubt I will ever do it again! I just wanted to be sure they are as good as I think they are because of the questions I've seen on them lately. Go to midway and see what everyday people have to say on them. Think there is way over a 100 reviews and most all of them are 4 or 5 stars....
I think it's fair to tell what powders they were since they all meter pretty well.....IMR-4831, AA2520, and H100V. Long stick powders have a habit of overdraws because a lot of powder will bunch up in the tube....Somewhere we found a tip about using a piece of a Micky Dee's straw in the tube and that helps a lot, clip off about 3/8" and stick in the end of the dribbler. A little scoop to dip some works well but I've found after a long time of using these things I can pinch what I need to take out with out much problem at all.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
This was written for 6mm brx by Brand Cole comparing Two beam balances, a Harrell vs Prometheus.
After you have read the article below you might find this study of digital dispensers
www.6mmbr.com/powderdispensers01.html
Yes I have a Promethus
"I was approached by the folks at 6mmBR.com to provide a Prometheus scale for testing. I did not at this time have a demo unit to send out, and was curious about the testing protocol being envisioned. That conversation led to this article. It will be kept basic, with concepts presented but not mathematically proven. For that you may consult a statistics text.
Manufacturing uses statistics to predict the dimensions (measurements) of a population (all units produced) based on measuring a sample (the few parts you actually measure). In this instance we are "manufacturing" weighed powder charges, and want to know how "accurate" the population of the charges will be by measuring a small sample. These charges will typically follow what is called a "normal distribution". This is the same thing as the old "bell curve" that was used in school to grade on the curve. You may have heard the term "standard of deviation" (SD). Most any scientific calculator today will calculate the SD once you input the raw data points. If you take the mean (average, or (X)) of your sample, and add to that plus and minus three (3) times the SD you will capture or describe 99.7% of the entire population. This technique is known as "Six Sigma" since the Greek letter sigma is used as a symbol for SD. Six-Sigma is a fairly standard technique in many manufacturing firms. There are some parameters that must be followed here, including sample size. This is a topic in and of itself, but the bigger the sample, the more accurate your results will predict the population. In most SPC work in manufacturing, between 5 and 10 pieces are typically sampled to look for trends in the dimension.
Now we need to discuss "measuring" something. If you want to know how accurate your dial calipers are that you measure your case lengths with, you do not test the calipers against a tape measure. You need precision blocks that you measure. A basic rule of thumb is to test at about 10 times the precision you want to hold. For example, if you want to measure to 0.1 gr, you need to "test" to 0.01 gr precision.
With these two concepts in mind, let's look at some test results for some scales and measures. For the "master" scale, I used a Denver Instruments TR-203 that reads out to 0.01 gr, and is linear to 1.0 UOR, or "unit of resolution". So even this scale does not truly weigh something accurate to 0.01 gr, but it will give good validity when weighing to 0.1 gr. The powder tested was Varget, a very popular 6BR and .308 Win long-range powder, which is fine-grained enough that it "should" work well through a powder measure. A charge weight around 40 gr was used. I used a sample size of 10 and ran the statistics for each device, including the Mean (average) (X), the standard of deviation (SD) and the extreme spread (ES) and then calculated the Six-Sigma with which we will predict the "population" of the charges such as if we were loading a thousand or so rounds.
PROMETHEUS 39.95 39.94 39.96 39.96 39.96 39.95 39.93 39.96 39.95 39.96
Mean = 39.95 SD = 0.010 ES = 0.03 Six-Sigma = 0.062
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.03 gr
HARRELL'S MEASURE 40.06 39.89 39.96 39.95 39.73 40.10 39.79 40.08 40.01 40.18
Mean = 39.97 SD = 0.142 ES = 0.45 Six-Sigma = 0.847
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.4 gr
RCBS 5-10 SCALE 40.05 40.19 40.06 40.12 40.19 40.16 40.20 40.14 40.12 40.21
Mean = 40.14 SD = 0.057 ES = 0.16 Six-Sigma = 0.341
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.15 gr
Old REDDING SCALE - hydraulic damped & custom-tuned 39.92 39.94 39.93 39.98 39.92 39.95 39.93 39.96 39.97 39.93
Mean = 39.94 SD = 0.021 ES = 0.06 Six-Sigma = 0.127
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.06 gr
There are some interesting conclusions to be drawn from this study. Notice that Six-Sigma is basically two times the ES. This Six-Sigma truly is the variation you will see over a big run. It's been proven in industry time and again. Most of you probably suspected the measure would be worse than the scale weighed charges, but even the charges weighed on the 5-10 was basically +/- "a tenth grain" that one sometimes hears that a good measure will throw to. I have only tested one electronic "reloading" scale, and it was not as good as even the RCBS 5-10 tested above. The Redding scale tested was a very old model that is no longer available, and I have really tuned it up. It is the slowest of the scales to operate though, as the damping system/beam takes perhaps 20 seconds to stabilize. Beam scale accuracy is a function of two things, design parameters and quality of construction.
This was written for 6mm brx by Brand Cole comparing Two beam balances, a Harrell vs Prometheus.
After you have read the article below you might find this study of digital dispensers
www.6mmbr.com/powderdispensers01.html
Yes I have a Promethus
"I was approached by the folks at 6mmBR.com to provide a Prometheus scale for testing. I did not at this time have a demo unit to send out, and was curious about the testing protocol being envisioned. That conversation led to this article. It will be kept basic, with concepts presented but not mathematically proven. For that you may consult a statistics text.
Manufacturing uses statistics to predict the dimensions (measurements) of a population (all units produced) based on measuring a sample (the few parts you actually measure). In this instance we are "manufacturing" weighed powder charges, and want to know how "accurate" the population of the charges will be by measuring a small sample. These charges will typically follow what is called a "normal distribution". This is the same thing as the old "bell curve" that was used in school to grade on the curve. You may have heard the term "standard of deviation" (SD). Most any scientific calculator today will calculate the SD once you input the raw data points. If you take the mean (average, or (X)) of your sample, and add to that plus and minus three (3) times the SD you will capture or describe 99.7% of the entire population. This technique is known as "Six Sigma" since the Greek letter sigma is used as a symbol for SD. Six-Sigma is a fairly standard technique in many manufacturing firms. There are some parameters that must be followed here, including sample size. This is a topic in and of itself, but the bigger the sample, the more accurate your results will predict the population. In most SPC work in manufacturing, between 5 and 10 pieces are typically sampled to look for trends in the dimension.
Now we need to discuss "measuring" something. If you want to know how accurate your dial calipers are that you measure your case lengths with, you do not test the calipers against a tape measure. You need precision blocks that you measure. A basic rule of thumb is to test at about 10 times the precision you want to hold. For example, if you want to measure to 0.1 gr, you need to "test" to 0.01 gr precision.
With these two concepts in mind, let's look at some test results for some scales and measures. For the "master" scale, I used a Denver Instruments TR-203 that reads out to 0.01 gr, and is linear to 1.0 UOR, or "unit of resolution". So even this scale does not truly weigh something accurate to 0.01 gr, but it will give good validity when weighing to 0.1 gr. The powder tested was Varget, a very popular 6BR and .308 Win long-range powder, which is fine-grained enough that it "should" work well through a powder measure. A charge weight around 40 gr was used. I used a sample size of 10 and ran the statistics for each device, including the Mean (average) (X), the standard of deviation (SD) and the extreme spread (ES) and then calculated the Six-Sigma with which we will predict the "population" of the charges such as if we were loading a thousand or so rounds.
PROMETHEUS 39.95 39.94 39.96 39.96 39.96 39.95 39.93 39.96 39.95 39.96
Mean = 39.95 SD = 0.010 ES = 0.03 Six-Sigma = 0.062
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.03 gr
HARRELL'S MEASURE 40.06 39.89 39.96 39.95 39.73 40.10 39.79 40.08 40.01 40.18
Mean = 39.97 SD = 0.142 ES = 0.45 Six-Sigma = 0.847
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.4 gr
RCBS 5-10 SCALE 40.05 40.19 40.06 40.12 40.19 40.16 40.20 40.14 40.12 40.21
Mean = 40.14 SD = 0.057 ES = 0.16 Six-Sigma = 0.341
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.15 gr
Old REDDING SCALE - hydraulic damped & custom-tuned 39.92 39.94 39.93 39.98 39.92 39.95 39.93 39.96 39.97 39.93
Mean = 39.94 SD = 0.021 ES = 0.06 Six-Sigma = 0.127
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.06 gr
There are some interesting conclusions to be drawn from this study. Notice that Six-Sigma is basically two times the ES. This Six-Sigma truly is the variation you will see over a big run. It's been proven in industry time and again. Most of you probably suspected the measure would be worse than the scale weighed charges, but even the charges weighed on the 5-10 was basically +/- "a tenth grain" that one sometimes hears that a good measure will throw to. I have only tested one electronic "reloading" scale, and it was not as good as even the RCBS 5-10 tested above. The Redding scale tested was a very old model that is no longer available, and I have really tuned it up. It is the slowest of the scales to operate though, as the damping system/beam takes perhaps 20 seconds to stabilize. Beam scale accuracy is a function of two things, design parameters and quality of construction.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unsichtbar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This was written for 6mm brx by Brand Cole comparing Two beam ballances, a Harrel vs Promethus.
"I was approached by the folks at 6mmBR.com to provide a Prometheus scale for testing. I did not at this time have a demo unit to send out, and was curious about the testing protocol being envisioned. That conversation led to this article. It will be kept basic, with concepts presented but not mathematically proven. For that you may consult a statistics text.
Manufacturing uses statistics to predict the dimensions (measurements) of a population (all units produced) based on measuring a sample (the few parts you actually measure). In this instance we are "manufacturing" weighed powder charges, and want to know how "accurate" the population of the charges will be by measuring a small sample. These charges will typically follow what is called a "normal distribution". This is the same thing as the old "bell curve" that was used in school to grade on the curve. You may have heard the term "standard of deviation" (SD). Most any scientific calculator today will calculate the SD once you input the raw data points. If you take the mean (average, or (X)) of your sample, and add to that plus and minus three (3) times the SD you will capture or describe 99.7% of the entire population. This technique is known as "Six Sigma" since the Greek letter sigma is used as a symbol for SD. Six-Sigma is a fairly standard technique in many manufacturing firms. There are some parameters that must be followed here, including sample size. This is a topic in and of itself, but the bigger the sample, the more accurate your results will predict the population. In most SPC work in manufacturing, between 5 and 10 pieces are typically sampled to look for trends in the dimension.
Now we need to discuss "measuring" something. If you want to know how accurate your dial calipers are that you measure your case lengths with, you do not test the calipers against a tape measure. You need precision blocks that you measure. A basic rule of thumb is to test at about 10 times the precision you want to hold. For example, if you want to measure to 0.1 gr, you need to "test" to 0.01 gr precision.
With these two concepts in mind, let's look at some test results for some scales and measures. For the "master" scale, I used a Denver Instruments TR-203 that reads out to 0.01 gr, and is linear to 1.0 UOR, or "unit of resolution". So even this scale does not truly weigh something accurate to 0.01 gr, but it will give good validity when weighing to 0.1 gr. The powder tested was Varget, a very popular 6BR and .308 Win long-range powder, which is fine-grained enough that it "should" work well through a powder measure. A charge weight around 40 gr was used. I used a sample size of 10 and ran the statistics for each device, including the Mean (average) (X), the standard of deviation (SD) and the extreme spread (ES) and then calculated the Six-Sigma with which we will predict the "population" of the charges such as if we were loading a thousand or so rounds.
PROMETHEUS 39.95 39.94 39.96 39.96 39.96 39.95 39.93 39.96 39.95 39.96
Mean = 39.95 SD = 0.010 ES = 0.03 Six-Sigma = 0.062
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.03 gr
HARRELL'S MEASURE 40.06 39.89 39.96 39.95 39.73 40.10 39.79 40.08 40.01 40.18
Mean = 39.97 SD = 0.142 ES = 0.45 Six-Sigma = 0.847
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.4 gr
RCBS 5-10 SCALE 40.05 40.19 40.06 40.12 40.19 40.16 40.20 40.14 40.12 40.21
Mean = 40.14 SD = 0.057 ES = 0.16 Six-Sigma = 0.341
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.15 gr
Old REDDING SCALE - hydraulic damped & custom-tuned 39.92 39.94 39.93 39.98 39.92 39.95 39.93 39.96 39.97 39.93
Mean = 39.94 SD = 0.021 ES = 0.06 Six-Sigma = 0.127
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.06 gr
There are some interesting conclusions to be drawn from this study. Notice that Six-Sigma is basically two times the ES. This Six-Sigma truly is the variation you will see over a big run. It's been proven in industry time and again. Most of you probably suspected the measure would be worse than the scale weighed charges, but even the charges weighed on the 5-10 was basically +/- "a tenth grain" that one sometimes hears that a good measure will throw to. I have only tested one electronic "reloading" scale, and it was not as good as even the RCBS 5-10 tested above. The Redding scale tested was a very old model that is no longer available, and I have really tuned it up. It is the slowest of the scales to operate though, as the damping system/beam takes perhaps 20 seconds to stabilize. Beam scale accuracy is a function of two things, design parameters and quality of construction.
</div></div>
That is an old article, the Gen II beam is more accurate.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unsichtbar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This was written for 6mm brx by Brand Cole comparing Two beam ballances, a Harrel vs Promethus.
"I was approached by the folks at 6mmBR.com to provide a Prometheus scale for testing. I did not at this time have a demo unit to send out, and was curious about the testing protocol being envisioned. That conversation led to this article. It will be kept basic, with concepts presented but not mathematically proven. For that you may consult a statistics text.
Manufacturing uses statistics to predict the dimensions (measurements) of a population (all units produced) based on measuring a sample (the few parts you actually measure). In this instance we are "manufacturing" weighed powder charges, and want to know how "accurate" the population of the charges will be by measuring a small sample. These charges will typically follow what is called a "normal distribution". This is the same thing as the old "bell curve" that was used in school to grade on the curve. You may have heard the term "standard of deviation" (SD). Most any scientific calculator today will calculate the SD once you input the raw data points. If you take the mean (average, or (X)) of your sample, and add to that plus and minus three (3) times the SD you will capture or describe 99.7% of the entire population. This technique is known as "Six Sigma" since the Greek letter sigma is used as a symbol for SD. Six-Sigma is a fairly standard technique in many manufacturing firms. There are some parameters that must be followed here, including sample size. This is a topic in and of itself, but the bigger the sample, the more accurate your results will predict the population. In most SPC work in manufacturing, between 5 and 10 pieces are typically sampled to look for trends in the dimension.
Now we need to discuss "measuring" something. If you want to know how accurate your dial calipers are that you measure your case lengths with, you do not test the calipers against a tape measure. You need precision blocks that you measure. A basic rule of thumb is to test at about 10 times the precision you want to hold. For example, if you want to measure to 0.1 gr, you need to "test" to 0.01 gr precision.
With these two concepts in mind, let's look at some test results for some scales and measures. For the "master" scale, I used a Denver Instruments TR-203 that reads out to 0.01 gr, and is linear to 1.0 UOR, or "unit of resolution". So even this scale does not truly weigh something accurate to 0.01 gr, but it will give good validity when weighing to 0.1 gr. The powder tested was Varget, a very popular 6BR and .308 Win long-range powder, which is fine-grained enough that it "should" work well through a powder measure. A charge weight around 40 gr was used. I used a sample size of 10 and ran the statistics for each device, including the Mean (average) (X), the standard of deviation (SD) and the extreme spread (ES) and then calculated the Six-Sigma with which we will predict the "population" of the charges such as if we were loading a thousand or so rounds.
PROMETHEUS 39.95 39.94 39.96 39.96 39.96 39.95 39.93 39.96 39.95 39.96
Mean = 39.95 SD = 0.010 ES = 0.03 Six-Sigma = 0.062
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.03 gr
HARRELL'S MEASURE 40.06 39.89 39.96 39.95 39.73 40.10 39.79 40.08 40.01 40.18
Mean = 39.97 SD = 0.142 ES = 0.45 Six-Sigma = 0.847
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.4 gr
RCBS 5-10 SCALE 40.05 40.19 40.06 40.12 40.19 40.16 40.20 40.14 40.12 40.21
Mean = 40.14 SD = 0.057 ES = 0.16 Six-Sigma = 0.341
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.15 gr
Old REDDING SCALE - hydraulic damped & custom-tuned 39.92 39.94 39.93 39.98 39.92 39.95 39.93 39.96 39.97 39.93
Mean = 39.94 SD = 0.021 ES = 0.06 Six-Sigma = 0.127
Process Accuracy: +/- 0.06 gr
There are some interesting conclusions to be drawn from this study. Notice that Six-Sigma is basically two times the ES. This Six-Sigma truly is the variation you will see over a big run. It's been proven in industry time and again. Most of you probably suspected the measure would be worse than the scale weighed charges, but even the charges weighed on the 5-10 was basically +/- "a tenth grain" that one sometimes hears that a good measure will throw to. I have only tested one electronic "reloading" scale, and it was not as good as even the RCBS 5-10 tested above. The Redding scale tested was a very old model that is no longer available, and I have really tuned it up. It is the slowest of the scales to operate though, as the damping system/beam takes perhaps 20 seconds to stabilize. Beam scale accuracy is a function of two things, design parameters and quality of construction.
</div></div>
That is an old article, the Gen II beam is more accurate.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
That is true, I only have a Promethus with a optical sensor call it a 1.5 model. However the above is a comparision to the Model 1 some might not have see it. So the scales that it is being compared to have not changed that much, so the PII number will only be better. I don't care one way or the other, people can decide for themselves
That is true, I only have a Promethus with a optical sensor call it a 1.5 model. However the above is a comparision to the Model 1 some might not have see it. So the scales that it is being compared to have not changed that much, so the PII number will only be better. I don't care one way or the other, people can decide for themselves
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
I would have a hard time to spend that much money on a dispenser. Right now I can get my SDs in the 7s and 8s on a regular basis. Would this get in the 1s or 2s? If it would only get me in the 4s and 5s I don't think it would be worth the money.
To many other variables in shooting that would have an affect on the bullets impact. SDs are important but shooting,wind,mirage,and pracitce. Would seem to have more to do than only getting 1 or 2 better.
I would have a hard time to spend that much money on a dispenser. Right now I can get my SDs in the 7s and 8s on a regular basis. Would this get in the 1s or 2s? If it would only get me in the 4s and 5s I don't think it would be worth the money.
To many other variables in shooting that would have an affect on the bullets impact. SDs are important but shooting,wind,mirage,and pracitce. Would seem to have more to do than only getting 1 or 2 better.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
Rolled them that way for years, decades even, I had more time and patience, also drove a VW aka"Hitlers Revenge" they both have servicable results, there were not many options. Now I have more money than time or patience, I think I get consistant results very rapidly, most likely better. I do not chase SD or ES they are of little value thats another subject, more interested in vertical spread at a 1000 yds. As you are aware you have to be able to utilize such consistant ammunition, never said the other factors were not of utmost importance,. Now I spend alot less time reloading have more quality ammunition and time to shoot.
Rolled them that way for years, decades even, I had more time and patience, also drove a VW aka"Hitlers Revenge" they both have servicable results, there were not many options. Now I have more money than time or patience, I think I get consistant results very rapidly, most likely better. I do not chase SD or ES they are of little value thats another subject, more interested in vertical spread at a 1000 yds. As you are aware you have to be able to utilize such consistant ammunition, never said the other factors were not of utmost importance,. Now I spend alot less time reloading have more quality ammunition and time to shoot.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
Does anyone know what the patent number is? Im might start working on something, but i dont want to infringe.
CJG
Does anyone know what the patent number is? Im might start working on something, but i dont want to infringe.
CJG
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
I know I cant shoot as well as sub 0.1 grains of accuracy, but waiting for the chargemaster is sometimes just too painful. If its that much faster, its definitely worth it. Gonna try to get on the wait list.
I know I cant shoot as well as sub 0.1 grains of accuracy, but waiting for the chargemaster is sometimes just too painful. If its that much faster, its definitely worth it. Gonna try to get on the wait list.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Smokin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know I cant shoot as well as sub 0.1 grains of accuracy, but waiting for the chargemaster is sometimes just too painful. If its that much faster, its definitely worth it. Gonna try to get on the wait list. </div></div>
I have 2 Chargemasters and hardly ever have a wait.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Smokin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know I cant shoot as well as sub 0.1 grains of accuracy, but waiting for the chargemaster is sometimes just too painful. If its that much faster, its definitely worth it. Gonna try to get on the wait list. </div></div>
I have 2 Chargemasters and hardly ever have a wait.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
But even with the staw modification and reprogramming, the chargemaster is still pretty drastically off every 5-7 loads. But I guess picking a few kernels out isnt that bad when you have another load waiting from another chargemaster beig used in tandem. Its a compromise, but a good idea.
But even with the staw modification and reprogramming, the chargemaster is still pretty drastically off every 5-7 loads. But I guess picking a few kernels out isnt that bad when you have another load waiting from another chargemaster beig used in tandem. Its a compromise, but a good idea.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
Shit, most of the time, the CM is waiting for me to dump the powder. It will go from high speed, to low speed in about a second. Sometimes, it just sounds like the it goes from high speed to stopping.
Shit, most of the time, the CM is waiting for me to dump the powder. It will go from high speed, to low speed in about a second. Sometimes, it just sounds like the it goes from high speed to stopping.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
What are your setting CM powder most used cal most often reloaded?
What are your setting CM powder most used cal most often reloaded?
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
Still waiting for someone to step forward and tell me if there is patent info any where on the machines? That machine isnt all that complicated and I think it could be improved with some changes.
CJG
Still waiting for someone to step forward and tell me if there is patent info any where on the machines? That machine isnt all that complicated and I think it could be improved with some changes.
CJG
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
I have searched kind of a lot on the online patent finder and i cant find anything relating to this. I don't doubt there is a patent on some of the individual parts, I will probably have to break down and call Brand.
CJG
I have searched kind of a lot on the online patent finder and i cant find anything relating to this. I don't doubt there is a patent on some of the individual parts, I will probably have to break down and call Brand.
CJG
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
"I can promise you, not getting the rifle back on your shoulder in the same position will give you more problems than 2 kernels of powder over or under."
Right.
He77, variations between very good cases or primers or a ten degree temperature change will make a bigger difference in a load than two kernels of powder.
I think a lot of us make far too big an issue of striving to weigh powder within .0000001 gr. It simply isn't all that critical compared to other things we can't anticipate or measure, much less control.
"I can promise you, not getting the rifle back on your shoulder in the same position will give you more problems than 2 kernels of powder over or under."
Right.
He77, variations between very good cases or primers or a ten degree temperature change will make a bigger difference in a load than two kernels of powder.
I think a lot of us make far too big an issue of striving to weigh powder within .0000001 gr. It simply isn't all that critical compared to other things we can't anticipate or measure, much less control.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
I have a VIC 123 and use a Harrels to throw a slightly light charge and trickle up to the desired charge. And sometimes I get bored of that tedious shit and just throw charges from the Harrels powder measure.
ALL my ammo seems to shot the same-either way. That balance weighs to the kernel-somehow I don't think one kernel is going to change the ballistics of 89grains of RL25 behind a 300SMK.
If you don't weigh your cases,sort your bullets and turn the case mouths-why measure to the 0.01gr?
I have a VIC 123 and use a Harrels to throw a slightly light charge and trickle up to the desired charge. And sometimes I get bored of that tedious shit and just throw charges from the Harrels powder measure.
ALL my ammo seems to shot the same-either way. That balance weighs to the kernel-somehow I don't think one kernel is going to change the ballistics of 89grains of RL25 behind a 300SMK.
If you don't weigh your cases,sort your bullets and turn the case mouths-why measure to the 0.01gr?
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rotortuner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still waiting for someone to step forward and tell me if there is patent info any where on the machines? That machine isnt all that complicated and I think it could be improved with some changes.
CJG </div></div>
Improved or copied/stolen?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rotortuner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still waiting for someone to step forward and tell me if there is patent info any where on the machines? That machine isnt all that complicated and I think it could be improved with some changes.
CJG </div></div>
Improved or copied/stolen?
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
Improved of course. If you copied it and sold it, you would get sued.
There has been a lot of patent discussion on silencertalk about copying internals of patented suppressor technology. people go round and round and its always the same arguments.
Improved of course. If you copied it and sold it, you would get sued.
There has been a lot of patent discussion on silencertalk about copying internals of patented suppressor technology. people go round and round and its always the same arguments.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
You very well maybe a Doctor MIT Engineering Graduate, with many years of looking at complex problems, and engineering simple but effective solutions, if you are that person I will buy your first production unit, I bet your not that person, but I have been wrong before.
You very well maybe a Doctor MIT Engineering Graduate, with many years of looking at complex problems, and engineering simple but effective solutions, if you are that person I will buy your first production unit, I bet your not that person, but I have been wrong before.
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
You never know, but I will tell you a unit like this isnt a one man design project, the principle is pretty easy, but integrating electronic control systems along with in depth mechanical designe, it takes several people with different strong suits. Any ways, if I ever get anything together I may post a video.
you want to see something designed by someone who has no real design experience, check out the MD arms 20 round drum. I am an engineer and I am impressed with it. He has sold 5000+ units at over $200 a piece. come up with an inovative idea or something people want and it will sell like wild fire. The promethius looks like an awesome machine, but i think there will be something with the same performance offered at some point for less money. whether its me or someone else, its just a matter of time.
CJG
You never know, but I will tell you a unit like this isnt a one man design project, the principle is pretty easy, but integrating electronic control systems along with in depth mechanical designe, it takes several people with different strong suits. Any ways, if I ever get anything together I may post a video.
you want to see something designed by someone who has no real design experience, check out the MD arms 20 round drum. I am an engineer and I am impressed with it. He has sold 5000+ units at over $200 a piece. come up with an inovative idea or something people want and it will sell like wild fire. The promethius looks like an awesome machine, but i think there will be something with the same performance offered at some point for less money. whether its me or someone else, its just a matter of time.
CJG
Re: Promethius 2 powder measure who sells them>?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rotortuner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You never know, but I will tell you a unit like this isnt a one man design project, the principle is pretty easy, but integrating electronic control systems along with in depth mechanical designe, it takes several people with different strong suits. Any ways, if I ever get anything together I may post a video. CJG </div></div>
I met Brand when he was developing the Gen I unit in the 90's, and I guarantee you that it IS a one man design. I saw both machines evolve, and Brand is just as skilled on the mechanical side as the electronic side. There is alot more engineering in the balance beam than you might think. A one kernal powder machine is not even close to a 12 ga drum (that analogy is just absurd, are you even aware of what the Prometheus does?). If you ever design a machine that is more accurate, faster, does not infringe on Brand's patents, and is cheaper, I would like to see it. Until then, the Prometheus rocks. The Prometheus IS something people want, and they DO sell like wildfire, just try to order one...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rotortuner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You never know, but I will tell you a unit like this isnt a one man design project, the principle is pretty easy, but integrating electronic control systems along with in depth mechanical designe, it takes several people with different strong suits. Any ways, if I ever get anything together I may post a video. CJG </div></div>
I met Brand when he was developing the Gen I unit in the 90's, and I guarantee you that it IS a one man design. I saw both machines evolve, and Brand is just as skilled on the mechanical side as the electronic side. There is alot more engineering in the balance beam than you might think. A one kernal powder machine is not even close to a 12 ga drum (that analogy is just absurd, are you even aware of what the Prometheus does?). If you ever design a machine that is more accurate, faster, does not infringe on Brand's patents, and is cheaper, I would like to see it. Until then, the Prometheus rocks. The Prometheus IS something people want, and they DO sell like wildfire, just try to order one...
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