Proof or Bartlein/Kreiger

[KhaymKhaym]

So I have been shooting PRS since June of this year and started off with two nice rifles, impact 737r and Bartlein on the first in 6XC and Defiance and Bartlein on the back up in 6BRA. So, my question is, is proofs prefits comparable or better than a smithed bartlein "prefit" for an impact. I'm seeing Proof prefits in 6 Dasher for an impact for 500$ vs 950-1000$ for a Bartlein cut by a reputable Smith. Am also seeing a lot of folks on the hide saying their proofs have shot just as good if not better than bartlein steel.

What says you Snipers Hide? Do Proof prefits shoot 1/4moa-.3 moa when tuned or are they 1/2 moa at best? Every 3 shot group I send it with my bartleins is .3 moa at 600 yards, can a proof prefit do that too?

 

[OREGUN]

I bet if you put a proof on the Impact you’d get similar results but you better stick with the Bartlein on the defiance for maximum backup accuracy. 1.8” three shot send its at 600 yards could cause you to slip one off the plate.


seriously


Post a picture of your 12 shot Kraft group and we will see if you can realize the difference between .3 and .5 MOA barrels. Post your podium pics from these matches you’ve been shooting since June and we will see if any of this matters at all.

Not to be a dick or anything.

 

[KhaymKhaym]

I bet if you put a proof on the Impact you’d get similar results but you better stick with the Bartlein on the defiance for maximum backup accuracy. 1.8” three shot send its at 600 yards could cause you to slip one off the plate.


seriously


Post a picture of your 12 shot Kraft group and we will see if you can realize the difference between .3 and .5 MOA barrels. Post your podium pics from these matches you’ve been shooting since June and we will see if any of this matters at all.

Not to be a dick or anything.

Just getting into PRS as a whole so I'm far from podium finishes, I'm breaking top 50 with 3 matches under my belt but im planning to shoot GAP grind next year and go a lot harder in the paint on it. I come from the F Class world where shooting .2 moa at 1000 is pretty much essential to be competitive at the high level and was winning there. But I was also running a 284 Wheeler Brux chambered by Wheeler with the action timed and set up by him as well.

I can certainly shoot 1/4 and 1/2 moa groups all day at 1000 with that rifle and my 6XC but that's not really important for PRS and a hell of a lot harder to do shooting positional but I also use the impact rifle to shoot bench steel matches and some benchrest fun matches too. I also blow through 1000 RDS on a barrel in 3 months, hence why I'm asking as the XC I had spun up in June is about shot out now also why I want to switch to Dasher to be more economical, as I practice far more than I shoot matches right now and haven't built a 22 to supplement some of that yet.

 

[OREGUN]

My point is that 3 shot groups from a bench don’t mean much for PRS and it certainly doesn’t matter if YOU can’t shoot a 1”, 12 shot group from multiple positions with any barrel. So, to answer your question, as you well know from being an f-classer, chambering work is as important to accuracy as anything and even top quality barrel makers can sometimes get lousy steel that doesn’t last as long. You’ll have to get a proof and try it to get an answer. At the rate you’re going through barrels, I would suggest getting a proof and if it doesn’t meet your match accuracy expectations use it as a practice barrel. It’s very likely that it will shoot under an inch at 100 yards which should give you all the accuracy you need to become a better positional shooter.

For reference, I only shoot prefit barrels if you are concerned about the quality of a prefit vs. a custom fit barrel. I’m not taking an action out of circulation long enough to send it to a gunsmith. I’ve never had one (6CM, 6.5CM and 6BRA) not shoot 1/2” or better with either factory or reloads.

 

[b6graham]

my proof 6Dasher and 223 prefits will definitely shoot bughole 1/4" or smaller groups. does it always do it? no. but neither do my bartleins, benchmarks, or kreigers

 

[KhaymKhaym]

My point is that 3 shot groups from a bench don’t mean much for PRS and it certainly doesn’t matter if YOU can’t shoot a 1”, 12 shot group from multiple positions with any barrel. So, to answer your question, as you well know from being an f-classer, chambering work is as important to accuracy as anything and even top quality barrel makers can sometimes get lousy steel that doesn’t last as long. You’ll have to get a proof and try it to get an answer. At the rate you’re going through barrels, I would suggest getting a proof and if it doesn’t meet your match accuracy expectations use it as a practice barrel. It’s very likely that it will shoot under an inch at 100 yards which should give you all the accuracy you need to become a better positional shooter.

For reference, I only shoot prefit barrels if you are concerned about the quality of a prefit vs. a custom fit barrel. I’m not taking an action out of circulation long enough to send it to a gunsmith. I’ve never had one (6CM, 6.5CM and 6BRA) not shoot 1/2” or better with either factory or reloads.

Thats really nice to hear actually, coming from a world where I send my action off for 2-3 months to have a barrel done its nice to enter one that you can run a prefit and be just as competitive. Also nice to hear that proof is putting out profits that can shoot sub 1/2. If it is sub 1/2, id be happy.

 

[Sheldon N]

So, my question is, is proofs prefits comparable or better than a smithed bartlein "prefit" for an impact.

IMO...

A Bartlein or Kreiger barrel blank is probably ever so slightly better on average than a Proof barrel blank.
Almost all barrels these days are cut on CNC lathes with excellent repeatability, you'll get the same from Proof or a smith.
A good smith will spend more time on quality setup to indicate the barrel perfectly in the lathe.
Proof has capable machinists running their equipment, but they are more of a volume shop which keeps costs low.
The extra money you spend with a smith is basically going towards attention to detail in setup/quality.
Vast majority of experiences I hear from Proof prefits is very good, but I think you're more likely to get a "hammer" from a smith and less likely to get a dud.

For PRS, skill dwarfs the subtle differences in barrels above.

 

[KhaymKhaym]

IMO...

A Bartlein or Kreiger barrel blank is probably ever so slightly better on average than a Proof barrel blank.
Almost all barrels these days are cut on CNC lathes with excellent repeatability, you'll get the same from Proof or a smith.
A good smith will spend more time on quality setup to indicate the barrel perfectly in the lathe.
Proof has capable machinists running their equipment, but they are more of a volume shop which keeps costs low.
The extra money you spend with a smith is basically going towards attention to detail in setup/quality.
Vast majority of experiences I hear from Proof prefits is very good, but I think you're more likely to get a "hammer" from a smith and less likely to get a dud.

For PRS, skill dwarfs the subtle differences in barrels above.

In think your right, especially just starting out. Maybe if I was consistently top 10 then that edge would make a difference

 

[NGCSUGrad09]

I shoot nearly all Proof prefits these days for a variety of cartridges. I've had about the same results as with custom smith work... most shoot really, really well and then there are a few that are exceptional. Part of the savings to a prefit are from less options, so if you want something different than what they or anyone else with a prefit has a SKU for, a custom smith can get you exactly what you want. If it was me, I'd save the money and buy more ammo or components to shoot more.

 

[Pete B]

I shoot nearly all Proof prefits these days for a variety of cartridges. I've had about the same results as with custom smith work... most shoot really, really well and then there are a few that are exceptional. Part of the savings to a prefit are from less options, so if you want something different than what they or anyone else with a prefit has a SKU for, a custom smith can get you exactly what you want. If it was me, I'd save the money and buy more ammo or components to shoot more.

What he said.....

 

[rothgyr]

One of my buddies has bought prefits from proof twice, and both times there were chamber problems. First time, they had cut the dasher barrel with a dasher reamer and finished it with a BRA finishing reamer and screwed it up pretty bad. Second prefit was a 7 SAUM with a crooked chamber.

I don't like to dog on large smithing companies, but I've had lemons from GA Precision too. I think when a company gets as much volume in orders as GA, Proof, etc. you see the same problems as other places - scaling to meet volume is a lot more complicated than buying another lathe and hiring another machinist.

I would go to a smaller smith with a good reputation and fast turn around times. Preece Precision, Central Utah Precision Rifle (both local to me) has a turn around time of a few weeks, where GAP took 6 months for me when I ordered a Tempest in GT.

As far as barrel differences go, I know a guy who shoots great with a Preferred Barrel Blanks barrel, and regularly outshoots guys using Bartlein, Hawk Hill, Krieger, etc.

To Sheldon N's point - For PRS, skill dwarfs the subtle differences in barrels 99.9% of the time.

 

[BigJimFish]

Yes, buy one of those.

Even from the best barrel makers and best smiths ultimately every barrel is a special snowflake. Some will just be better than others in peak tuned performance and some will frankly be more forgiving than others as well. I'm not convinced anybody has even figured out exactly why this is. Proof, Kreiger, and Bartlein make excellent barrels. There will be a more variation barrel to barrel within these three brands then there will be variation between the brands when it comes to average performance. This is despite some very high standards all around and frankly, the best shooting barrel might not be the one that is closest to perfect on the spec. What really makes a particular barrel a hummer is not totally understood. In any case. Your not going to get an outright dud from these excellent barrel makers. Whether you get a real hummer, who knows. Most people wouldn't know if they got one anyway as they don't load and shoot the standards necessary to tell anyway.

 

[briang7511]

I am interested in the same route as the OP. Easily saves $400 dollars on a proof prefit and no long wait time. Then i ask myself what the pros use, and i would bet very few run the proof prefit especially at the Ag cup level. I am not chasing a few extra points, and i doubt my skills would notice .3 to .5 moa difference. In the past i have used most barrel barrel manufactures out there with exception of a few, proof being one and my results have not changed much. My current setup is a deviant/bartlein in 6gt from 5x5 precision and it just produces low es/sd and one of the best combos, if not the best i have ever had the pleasure of shooting. I have no reason to change. But i will try a proof prefit soon more for my own curiosity.

 

[Rob01]

Another prefit to look at is the PVA Ospreys. @bohem Josh does great work and they are very accurate. I have two of the 6mm Osprey barrels done as prefits for my TL3 and they are very accurate and clean up quick. He also usually has them in stock so no long wait.

Prefit Barrels with Osprey blanks

patriotvalleyarms.com

 

[308pirate]

Every 3 shot group I send it with my bartleins is .3 moa at 600 yards

 

[bohem]

So I have been shooting PRS since June of this year and started off with two nice rifles, impact 737r and Bartlein on the first in 6XC and Defiance and Bartlein on the back up in 6BRA. So, my question is, is proofs prefits comparable or better than a smithed bartlein "prefit" for an impact. I'm seeing Proof prefits in 6 Dasher for an impact for 500$ vs 950-1000$ for a Bartlein cut by a reputable Smith. Am also seeing a lot of folks on the hide saying their proofs have shot just as good if not better than bartlein steel.

What says you Snipers Hide? Do Proof prefits shoot 1/4moa-.3 moa when tuned or are they 1/2 moa at best? Every 3 shot group I send it with my bartleins is .3 moa at 600 yards, can a proof prefit do that too?

I/We pioneered this market and the initial entry to market was full of naysayers telling me that it was impossible to make a prefit as accurate as a hand fit barrel.

It's simply not true when you're starting with good actions, good blanks and good equipment with a good process.

My prefits have won regional BR and F class matches, PRS matches, placed well nationally for years and several have made the finals at the ISSF World Cup level for 300m.

Prefit Barrels with Osprey blanks

patriotvalleyarms.com

We're also running a material that exhibits barrel life characteristics similar to the special Bartlein stuff and folks are seeing the barrel life numbers from 6 Creeds that was originally advertised when that cartridge was launched... remember the "3000 rounds" claim that people barely got half of it? We're seeing 2500-2700 on 6 Creed match rifles from several of our supported shooters.

We offer customization on the order and lead times together that are untouched in the industry. Any contour, chamber, throating... standard lead 4-6 weeks with rush services as fast as 1 week.

I'm about to start our annual Black Friday sale, prefit Ospreys will come with a Muzzle Jimmy cleaning package. In shop testing we've watched carbon rings and muzzle fouling wipe off with a papertowel time after time. It's time to change how people clean rifles.

 

[pmclaine]

I own two bartlein and a Krueger,

Third Bartlein in route.

All shoot great but.

Nothing cleans as easily as the krieger.

I don’t know if it’s the fact the Krieger is stainless and my Bartlein carbon but a short soak in hoppes and patches are barely gray.

 

[ghostrider_OneOne]

I/We pioneered this market and the initial entry to market was full of naysayers telling me that it was impossible to make a prefit as accurate as a hand fit barrel.

It's simply not true when you're starting with good actions, good blanks and good equipment with a good process.

My prefits have won regional BR and F class matches, PRS matches, placed well nationally for years and several have made the finals at the ISSF World Cup level for 300m.

Prefit Barrels with Osprey blanks

patriotvalleyarms.com

We're also running a material that exhibits barrel life characteristics similar to the special Bartlein stuff and folks are seeing the barrel life numbers from 6 Creeds that was originally advertised when that cartridge was launched... remember the "3000 rounds" claim that people barely got half of it? We're seeing 2500-2700 on 6 Creed match rifles from several of our supported shooters.

We offer customization on the order and lead times together that are untouched in the industry. Any contour, chamber, throating... standard lead 4-6 weeks with rush services as fast as 1 week.

I'm about to start our annual Black Friday sale, prefit Ospreys will come with a Muzzle Jimmy cleaning package. In shop testing we've watched carbon rings and muzzle fouling wipe off with a papertowel time after time. It's time to change how people clean rifles.

Definitely interested in trying one of your barrels. Please notify when you start black Friday sale.
thanks

 

[308pirate]

Nothing cleans as easily as the krieger.

I don’t know if it’s the fact the Krieger is stainless and my Bartlein carbon but a short soak in hoppes and patches are barely gray.

I'm about 99.9% sure that the surface roughness of a barrel's internal features has the most impact on how much it fouls and how easily cleans up.

Surface roughness also has an impact on how accurate the barrel can be, but nowhere as much as the exact dimensions of the bore/land/grooves/throat as well as how consistent those dimensions are throughout the length of it.

I think the actual steel alloy has much less to do with anything, maybe other than barrel life.

@Frank Green for some education