Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

[carguy2244]

I have a DPMS AP4 7.62. Have about 2000 rounds through it, mostly surplus. So far it's been 100%. It's a pain to clean, but a good weapon for it's intended use, which has been steel targets out to 400 yards, 2 gun competitions, and a SHTF home defense tool.
I feel the need to "upgrade".
I'm considering piston driven such as PWS, POF, LWRCI, and SCAR.
DIs, maybe a LMT or Noveske.
I'm definitely staying with 7.62.
What's the best choice and why. I know pistols, but am still learning about rifles.
Thanks to all. I've already learned a lot from lurking on this forum.

 

[Gunn-Fighter]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

Have you thought about a LaRue OBR or PredatAR

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

If considering a PWS Mk2 then I would read ALL of DMacks threads on the PWS.My emo Mk112 has been shipped and he has me pumped to shoot it. I also have a demo POF 416 11.5" I've been playing with I want to shoot them side by side. (I know you they are 5.56 but the operating system is the same). Best of luck and send a PM to DMack he knows a lot about PWS.
Chris

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

What will you be using a new 7.62 for, will it be used in the same application as your DPMS? If so, then I would go with a Larue PredatAR and a good muzzle brake. Lite weight, easy to clean, and plenty accurate for what you need. If you want to shoot out to 1,000, then I would go with an OBR.

I have an 18 inch Noveske that I love! The one thing that I like about the Larue guns over my platform is the coating Larue uses on their BCG makes for very easy cleaning. That said, when I do clean, I spray everything down with 409 or Simple green and rinse with hot water. Then blow everything out with compressed air or wipe dry. This makes cleaning very easy. The most tedious part is cleaning the bore. And guess what, no matter what gun you get, the bore will foul at about the same rate and accuracy will eventual suffer, even with a piston driven gun.

I used to think that piston guns were the cat's meow. Then I had a very bad experience with carrier tilt in an LMT MRP that tore up my lower receiver. I soon realized that piston guns offered nothing that justified their sometimes more than $1,000 price increase. In fact, they sometimes created more problems.

The other thing I do not like about a piston gun is its' recoil. I would compare the impulse felt on my 5.56 LMT piston MRP to that of my AR-10 shot without any lube. It is a very sharp heavy recoil that I found made follow up shots more difficult. Most piston owners will tell you that they do not notice any difference; some may not be experienced enough to detect a difference, and maybe there is a piston system that that somehow lightens recoil, but I have never shot nor heard of this. I would advise that you first shoot whatever platform you are thinking of getting before buying it.

 

[carguy2244]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

I read both positive and negative about piston driven weapons - them each piston system can be different too. So the whole thing is confusing, and spending $2500 for the wrong weapon would be bad.

 

[tomahawk84]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

Personally I would recommend the LMT MWS, it is a gas gun, but it seems to be the best all around 7.62 AR.

As far as DI vs Piston, I don't really see any advantage to going to a piston gun.

There are piston designs available that have some great features, but look at the gun or brand you want and ignore the Operating system, look for ergonomics, and whatever seems to fit you best.

Enjoy.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

I'd focus more on who turns out the best barrels over what operation system trumps the other, but I prefer precision over firepower too. Your interests may be different.

My suggestion: Call GAP.

 

[RyeDaddy]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomahawk84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

There are piston designs available that have some great features, but look at the gun or brand you want and ignore the Operating system, look for ergonomics, and whatever seems to fit you best.
</div></div>

I'm of the same opinion.

 

[Halfnutz]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I used to think that piston guns were the cat's meow. Then I had a very bad experience with carrier tilt in an LMT MRP that tore up my lower receiver. I soon realized that piston guns offered nothing that justified their sometimes more than $1,000 price increase. In fact, they sometimes created more problems.

The other thing I do not like about a piston gun is its' recoil. I would compare the impulse felt on my 5.56 LMT piston MRP to that of my AR-10 shot without any lube. It is a very sharp heavy recoil that I found made follow up shots more difficult. Most piston owners will tell you that they do not notice any difference; some may not be experienced enough to detect a difference, and maybe there is a piston system that that somehow lightens recoil, but I have never shot nor heard of this. I would advise that you first shoot whatever platform you are thinking of getting before buying it. </div></div>

I'd like to hear more about your carrier tilt issue. Was there a fix or was it just trashed.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halfnutz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I used to think that piston guns were the cat's meow. Then I had a very bad experience with carrier tilt in an LMT MRP that tore up my lower receiver. I soon realized that piston guns offered nothing that justified their sometimes more than $1,000 price increase. In fact, they sometimes created more problems.

The other thing I do not like about a piston gun is its' recoil. I would compare the impulse felt on my 5.56 LMT piston MRP to that of my AR-10 shot without any lube. It is a very sharp heavy recoil that I found made follow up shots more difficult. Most piston owners will tell you that they do not notice any difference; some may not be experienced enough to detect a difference, and maybe there is a piston system that that somehow lightens recoil, but I have never shot nor heard of this. I would advise that you first shoot whatever platform you are thinking of getting before buying it. </div></div>

I'd like to hear more about your carrier tilt issue. Was there a fix or was it just trashed.</div></div>

I contacted LMT and they claimed to have never have heard of carrier tilt. I sent them photos to which they tried to imply that I somehow had caused the problems by changing out the grip, adding a Magpul B.A.D. lever, and KNS pins (had to be installed because the trigger pin kept coming out of place every time I fired the rifle a result of the carrier hitting the receiver extension).

Long story short, the receiver extension was trashed and the actual lower receiver was going to be next. I got the feeling that LMT would not be any help. I sold the upper and bought a Noveske.

I've heard of ant tilt buffers that help to prevent this problem, but why when a DI gas system already works just fine.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

Here's some picks of the result of my carrier tilt.

 

[RictusGrin]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's some picks of the result of my carrier tilt.

</div></div>

That's just extra dry lube on the receiver.

 

[Halfnutz]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

Jakhamer81, How many rounds did it take to do this?

Piston rifles can go longer with out cleaning but I guess maybe they should still be inspected before use. Taking a look inside probobly save the reciever. Sad to hear LMT didn't have a better response.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

It started out running great with a little increased recoil. The recoil got worse and I changed out the H2 buffer for an H3. The H3 tamed it for a little while then my trigger pin started coming out of place every time I shot it. I installed KNS anti walk pins and kept it running for a little longer. At around 200 rounds the gun started running very sluggish. The carrier would not return to full battery. I tried the H2 buffer again with no change in performance. I put in an H buffer and it ran for maybe another 10 or 15 rounds.

Up until this point I had only wiped the carrier and receiver clean for maintenance and applied a lie coat of lube. I had noticed some of the dry lube from the receiver extension along with some small metal shavings. I investigated further and that is when I noticed the receiver extension and the buffer retaining pin showed heavy signs of wear.

I would say I had fired somewhere between two- three hundred rounds through the gun and after the first two mags I was never able to take it to the range without experiencing no less than five malfunctions. It gradually got worse to the point where I could not shoot more than two rounds without a malfunction.

It is very sad that a company like LMT was able to get away with playing dumb and stonewalling me. All that I had asked them for was a new receiver extension since I had already sold the upper. But out of that whole fiasco did come some good. I turned to Noveske and have been enjoying there superior barrels and firearms as well as their excellent customer service. Every time I call them up they treat me like I am their number one customer just like a company should.

 

[Kingof battle]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

I agree about the piston recoil. Ive used the SCAR system and it has a perceived LAG between shots. Just an observation.

 

[Graham]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

There's a reason the GAP-10 isn't a piston gun.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's a reason the GAP-10 isn't a piston gun.</div></div>

This is a great point. I would put GAP, Noveske, Larue, and KAC all in the top five gun makers and they have all stuck with DI. Even KAC who has claimed to have conducted so very much R&D and to have revolutionized Stoner's design has not crossed over to the piston world.

 

[Daps!]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

I have both DI and Piston AR's and my advise would be to choose the application and then pick the best rifle. For example for long range I shoot my OBR and I wouldn't pick another AR to shoot at distance. (my opinion only). For my 3 gun AR I shoot a DI Noveske 16" because the recoil pulse is so smooth and the gun just seems to shoot better for me in that application. If I was going on long range patrols in real crappy environments where my number one concern was reliability under adverse conditions (99%) of shooters do not fall into this category I would pick one of my piston guns, either my LWRC or my SCAR. Of those two I would lean towards the SCARbecause it was designed from the ground up as a piston system, not adapted for a different system like the AR. I feel I must caveat the piston choice, if you're going to go piston you can't go cheap and you need to pick a top tier system and in my opinion the choices are very limited in that category. Again these are only my opinions your results may vary I just thought the OP might want to hear from someone who had experience with both systems.

 

[VKC]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

Most people don't shoot enough without cleaning for a piston rifle to be worth the extra money and weight. The one caveat is if you use a suppressor, then for me I definitely prefer a piston rifle.

 

[fmsniper]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

I have always been an avid fan of piston AR's I even ran one in Iraq for a time, but as noted even my POF was showing the same signs, I have recently gone away from Piston AR's and back to DI, I have a M1A now instead as a battle rifle.

 

[adam1122]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

You are going to get a ton of peoples opinions on this....especially on the hide. Seems like half like Di and the other go with piston guns. Either way, DI guns have been the military's choice of weapon since the 1960's. It works - you just have to clean it.

If you want to shoot suppressed I reccomend a piston gun because it runs alot cleaner. The recoil of a piston gun that was built by a piston gun manufacturer (LWRC) is about the same as a DI gun. This may piss some folks off but its true...the testing has been done. Just do your research.

Conversion kits probably do have more recoil because they were not built from the ground up to be a piston gun. You get what you pay for with with one of these types weapons. Want a $800 gun....get $800 performance.

Personally, I shoot both Ar-10 in a Armalite ar-10a2 carbine as well as an LWRC Repr 20in piston gun and I'd take the lwrc any day over the armalite.

 

[Bad Medicine]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

I own a PWS MK116 I have 2,000 rounds through it and no a evern a scuff of wear on the buffer tube. I also own a MK214 with around 150-200 rouns and I love it! It runs smooth the only FTE I had was ammo related and a casing rim breaking. Otherwise the 214 has soft recoil, seems to be only little heaver really not noticeable. And also my my 116 cleaning it before 1500 rounds is pointless.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: Pros/Cons Piston vs DI?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want to shoot suppressed I reccomend a piston gun because it runs alot cleaner. The recoil of a piston gun that was built by a piston gun manufacturer (LWRC) is about the same as a DI gun. This may piss some folks off but its true...the testing has been done. Just do your research.
</div></div>

That is not true. When shooting suppressed, most of the gasses are coming back through the bore of the rifle. It's going to run dirty no matter what operating system you have, DI or piston.

Personally, I see no reason to switch to a piston setup. The DI setups have been proven for decades and I actually see more issues or potential issues with piston setups then I do with DI setups.