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Protection dogs ?
- Thread starter alpha6164
- Start date
toebuster sorry bout the mix up with diver
knockemdown, would you take an unloaded gun to a fight? that's what an untrained dog is, at best! Owners Put Their Guard Dogs to The Test - YouTube there are tons of these video's and more out there. you should really educate yourself before making rhetorical ( stupid ass statements) or if onechance would like to explain to you what assume means. a professionally , true professionally trained, dog is never a liability. as they are temperament tested before training ever begins. there are more dogs not suited for the work than the other way around. a TRUE protection dog prospect should be clear headed with solid nerves. not a fear biter, which is usually what you get with a poorly trained pet! small dogs account for more bites than larger dogs, because???? if you'd like to meet and bring your untrained dog, i'll bring my trained dog and YOU will see the difference. i'd also like you to wear the suit and feel the difference. i know i can have an unbiased certified helper in the area give his opinion. so please don't be an armchair warrior and spout shit you know nothing about as evidence of your ramblings.
i would say toebuster ,bogeybrown, and i are the more knowledgable on training dogs in this thread. being that we do this. onechance is also pretty knowledgable on the matter although he doesn't inter ject as much we have had a few phone conversations, and he does know what he's talking about, and i'm pretty sure he would vouch for me as well. regardless maybe since you and toebuster are both in NY you should meet and see, hell i'll fly up and meet after my germany trip, so mid march?
kenny
knockemdown, would you take an unloaded gun to a fight? that's what an untrained dog is, at best! Owners Put Their Guard Dogs to The Test - YouTube there are tons of these video's and more out there. you should really educate yourself before making rhetorical ( stupid ass statements) or if onechance would like to explain to you what assume means. a professionally , true professionally trained, dog is never a liability. as they are temperament tested before training ever begins. there are more dogs not suited for the work than the other way around. a TRUE protection dog prospect should be clear headed with solid nerves. not a fear biter, which is usually what you get with a poorly trained pet! small dogs account for more bites than larger dogs, because???? if you'd like to meet and bring your untrained dog, i'll bring my trained dog and YOU will see the difference. i'd also like you to wear the suit and feel the difference. i know i can have an unbiased certified helper in the area give his opinion. so please don't be an armchair warrior and spout shit you know nothing about as evidence of your ramblings.
i would say toebuster ,bogeybrown, and i are the more knowledgable on training dogs in this thread. being that we do this. onechance is also pretty knowledgable on the matter although he doesn't inter ject as much we have had a few phone conversations, and he does know what he's talking about, and i'm pretty sure he would vouch for me as well. regardless maybe since you and toebuster are both in NY you should meet and see, hell i'll fly up and meet after my germany trip, so mid march?
kenny
Okay, I'll step in for my .02. Thanks for the kind words Kenny. Now, as for a "Properly trained protection dog" being a novelty, I would have to say, "Hogwash"! Now a "Properly" trained dog is for the most part, smarter than most (self proclaimed) handlers. I've worked with many "Properly" trained dogs, most issues arise when the handler doesn't know what he or she is doing. If you notice, I use the word "Properly" not "Professional", you can be a "Professional" or consider yourself a "Professional" and still be an idiot.
When purchasing a dog, know what your limits are, and what you want the dog to do. Don't purchase a "Protection dog" if you just want a pet. If you're proactive in training and want a dog with potential, then choose a dog that doesn't exceed your limits. Most reputable breeders will or should ask, "If you want just a pet or a dog with certain characteristics for your intended needs". If you ask for a "Protection" dog, then they should quiz you on your knowledge of handling a dog with this type of training.
I personally know my limits when it comes to dogs and I know what type of characteristics I'm looking for. I wouldn't purchase a titled dog just to have as a pet. Remember this, titled dogs and dogs with a lot of prey drive or ball drive, need tons of attention and work. If you know you want a certain breed, do your research and find a reputable breeder, and ask tons of questions.
"Properly" trained dogs + Proper handlers = no issues. "Properly" trained dogs + poor handlers = Issues. The sum of all of this = KNOW YOUR STUFF!
I've talked with Kenny numerous times on the phone, he's very knowledgeable when it comes to dogs and training. He's down to earth, when it comes to prices as well. If you're looking for a certain dog, Kenny would be a good resource since he's going to Europe to purchase quality dogs at a reasonable price.
Now, This reply was based on my knowledge of training, training, owning titled dogs and competing. I think my reply was professional and consisted of basic knowledge, so I don't want someone trying to pick this apart. We're all suppose to be gentlemen and professional here, so lets step up and learn and share our knowledge.
If you want to piss and moan about my post, PM me, keep it out of the thread. Thanks for your time!
When purchasing a dog, know what your limits are, and what you want the dog to do. Don't purchase a "Protection dog" if you just want a pet. If you're proactive in training and want a dog with potential, then choose a dog that doesn't exceed your limits. Most reputable breeders will or should ask, "If you want just a pet or a dog with certain characteristics for your intended needs". If you ask for a "Protection" dog, then they should quiz you on your knowledge of handling a dog with this type of training.
I personally know my limits when it comes to dogs and I know what type of characteristics I'm looking for. I wouldn't purchase a titled dog just to have as a pet. Remember this, titled dogs and dogs with a lot of prey drive or ball drive, need tons of attention and work. If you know you want a certain breed, do your research and find a reputable breeder, and ask tons of questions.
"Properly" trained dogs + Proper handlers = no issues. "Properly" trained dogs + poor handlers = Issues. The sum of all of this = KNOW YOUR STUFF!
I've talked with Kenny numerous times on the phone, he's very knowledgeable when it comes to dogs and training. He's down to earth, when it comes to prices as well. If you're looking for a certain dog, Kenny would be a good resource since he's going to Europe to purchase quality dogs at a reasonable price.
Now, This reply was based on my knowledge of training, training, owning titled dogs and competing. I think my reply was professional and consisted of basic knowledge, so I don't want someone trying to pick this apart. We're all suppose to be gentlemen and professional here, so lets step up and learn and share our knowledge.
If you want to piss and moan about my post, PM me, keep it out of the thread. Thanks for your time!
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Many make the misconception of thinking PPD's need to be vicious, crazy dogs that are hard to control, and destroy anything in front of them. But that's not the case, someone told me years ago: We are not training them to bite, they know how to bite, we are training/teaching them when not to bite.
It's not difficult to find a dog that's able to take pressure and stand it's ground. It's not difficult to find a dog with a great/safe temperament and solid nerves. But to find one that has both is rare.
Aggression, coupled with the right combination of nerves, and temperament is a thing of beauty. Think of the many Police K9 public school presentations around the country, to grade school kids. They are usually in awe of the "police dog" because of an obedience routine, as well as the officers's words. Little do they know, what the capabilities of the K9 in front of them is, while they are all around the dog petting him.
It's not difficult to find a dog that's able to take pressure and stand it's ground. It's not difficult to find a dog with a great/safe temperament and solid nerves. But to find one that has both is rare.
Aggression, coupled with the right combination of nerves, and temperament is a thing of beauty. Think of the many Police K9 public school presentations around the country, to grade school kids. They are usually in awe of the "police dog" because of an obedience routine, as well as the officers's words. Little do they know, what the capabilities of the K9 in front of them is, while they are all around the dog petting him.
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chance,
you are correct sir. knockem i am sorry.
he put it a better way, and my meds have me in a calm mood so i am ready to answer questions.
kenny
you are correct sir. knockem i am sorry.
he put it a better way, and my meds have me in a calm mood so i am ready to answer questions.
kenny
if any of you ever get a chance to see a truly talented handler and well trained dog, like toebuster said it is truly a thing of beauty. look up vit glisnik, or Mr. mannes on youtube with his dog sid vom haus pixner. this dog has aggression on command, is completely under control at all times, yet is a serious dog in his work. He was one of the most used studs in europe, producing many dog for both high level competition and also police k9 work. i'm not talking a few good litters, i'm talking 100's of working dogs, search and rescue, ppd, dual purpose, even therapy dogs! another wonder is Quincey vom Waldwinkel, he was a world champions son, competed himself at the world level placing high, and also was a dual purpose police k9, very few dogs are of his caliber! more of that has to do with the training, but an excellent breeding sets the foundation.
regards kenny
regards kenny
I'm just curious, but what are these dogs like? Do they make good pets/companions, or are they always on the in a "work" state of mind? Are they like a normal dog that will curl up next to you, fart, snore, and try to sneak in the bed at night until you command it to attack? I always admire the agility and athleticism of malinois at the dog park, and most of those are probably not the same caliber of dog as these PPD's. Another question is why does one need to travel to Europe to get a dog? Are there not good dogs bred domestically? Do the euro breeders just produce superior dogs? Forgive my ignorance, but I've never been around these dogs before. I'm a beagle guy myself, so all anyone would have to do to get around my "personal protection dog" is clank his food bowl around. That Usually wakes him from his slumber...
chefcam,
i don't have to go to europe to get a nice dog, there are some extremely nice bred litters in the usa. the good breeders both here and in europe breed dogs that compliment each other. truly trying to ''improve the breed'', there is a difference between breeders who A breed just to make money, don't hold dogs to any type of standard other than it has ''papers'', there are the breeders, in gsd's, and working breeds that breed for pedigree's or because the dog's are '' titled, shown and breed surveyed'', but in actuality they do not work their dogs, or really know the dogs' strengths and weakness'. then there are the breeders, like myself and others, that actually train and test dogs, i will breed to improve on a weakness, or to strengthen on what is there. breeding dogs is not a science, there is no perfect formula. but by admitting your dog has a weakness, or needs improvement in area's is the only way i think it should be done. having other's also to help discern these weaknesses helps also.
to the first part of your post. they should make good pets/companions. dog's with that type of temperament and drive should not be placed as a ''pet''. they should go to a well versed trainer that want's to either compete, or into a working type home, i.e. search and rescue, police or other agency where the dog has a job to do all the time. most of those handlers also have the dog as their companion, but the dog is worked on a consistent and regular basis, so their not destructive caused by bordom or lack of training and exercise.
hope that helps
kenny
i don't have to go to europe to get a nice dog, there are some extremely nice bred litters in the usa. the good breeders both here and in europe breed dogs that compliment each other. truly trying to ''improve the breed'', there is a difference between breeders who A breed just to make money, don't hold dogs to any type of standard other than it has ''papers'', there are the breeders, in gsd's, and working breeds that breed for pedigree's or because the dog's are '' titled, shown and breed surveyed'', but in actuality they do not work their dogs, or really know the dogs' strengths and weakness'. then there are the breeders, like myself and others, that actually train and test dogs, i will breed to improve on a weakness, or to strengthen on what is there. breeding dogs is not a science, there is no perfect formula. but by admitting your dog has a weakness, or needs improvement in area's is the only way i think it should be done. having other's also to help discern these weaknesses helps also.
to the first part of your post. they should make good pets/companions. dog's with that type of temperament and drive should not be placed as a ''pet''. they should go to a well versed trainer that want's to either compete, or into a working type home, i.e. search and rescue, police or other agency where the dog has a job to do all the time. most of those handlers also have the dog as their companion, but the dog is worked on a consistent and regular basis, so their not destructive caused by bordom or lack of training and exercise.
hope that helps
kenny
As far as how the dogs are in the house, it depends on the dog and to me REALLY depends on the breed. My dual purpose GSD (an IPO titled Hungarian import) came home with me at the end of the day to a house with several other large dogs, 2 cats, and a damn parrot (can you tell I was married). He transitioned perfectly into being "off duty" just like me and could lay around the house, be around my family during the holidays etc. The difference was that when the other dogs were grab-assing in the yard he would typically be hanging out with me instead. He was also the only dog in the house that wouldn't obey my wife. He also came with me to the door any time someone knocked. I didn't call him to the door, he just came with me because we were partners. This worked out well because I needed to "introduce" anyone coming into the house to him. Not all dogs are like this, and he wasn't specifically trained for that. We spent COUNTLESS hours each day in a car together having some pretty great conversations, so we could read each other's moods very well. I could tell when he was cued into something unusual, and he could read when I was uneasy in a situation. More than anything, THAT is what I've always loved about GSDs, was their ability to learn, puzzle out what we as their handler want from them, and try to do it just to make us happy. They're insanely intuitive and less nervy (the good ones). Pleasing their handler is of paramount importance.
As for Mals, I don't "breed bash" them. As a WORKING DOG they are phenomenal. However, they are the supermodels/Italian sports cars of the dog world. They look cool, you get cool points for having one, but they can be an absolute pain in the ass to deal with. Their drives are through the roof and not all of those drives are where you want them all the time. They are insanely stimulus-driven. We tease some of the guys working Mals that they're nothing more than a "Kong-dispenser" and that the dog could give a shit about what the handler wants. I had one that I tried to transition into home-life like the GSD and it just didn't work. Even with a 2hr walk in the woods to bleed off energy every day, that dog was still a terror to have at the house. I pretty much uniformly advise against Mals for people that don't have the background with them. There are a lot of professional handlers that get bitten by their own Mals on a fairly regular basis. They are NOT laid-back dogs. Yesterday I had one bust out of a vari-kennel and climb an 8ft plywood wall to get into the next room to "visit" with a GSD that was happily chilling in it's crate watching TV.
The Dutchies can be a coin flip to one end of the spectrum or the other. Their breeding really seems to come into play.
Kenny and Toebuster can speak much more intelligently on all the intricacies of the breed differences between the U.S. and Europe, but there's a TON of difference not just in the dogs' drives, but also in their body structure. The U.S. has been breeding dogs to look good and excel in dog shows while Europe was concentrated on retaining/improving the WORKING lines of the dogs.
**edit: Sorry Kenny, we were apparently typing at the same time, didn't mean to repeat.
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I can agree with your post, word for word.
Being a dog lover, I respect and appreciate the work involved in training a working dog of any type. And I hold high the dog who possess the drive and willingness to work, whatever the task.
Didn't want to piss in anyone's punch bowl, as you guys are dog trainers. However, I will maintain my opinion that, in my eyes, a "good" dog will already posess the drive and willingness to protect it's pack (family). Not all breeds, and not every individual of a breed has this trait. But, as a whole, I believe that your average 40+ lb. 'Fido' is plenty capable of acting a reliable deterrant. Deterrant being the first, most passive, and arguably the most effective form of protection a dog can offer. That is service most loyal canines already provide its family, as being part of their pack.
The quote above: "We are not training them to bite, they know how to bite, we are training/teaching them when not to bite." is exactly why I have no use for a 'protection' breed in the first place. The vast majority of these types of dogs bred for 'protection work' seem to have an unflappable desire to 'test the fences' of dominance, like a Velociraptor in Jurassic Park. Why someone would welcome that challenge into a peaceful home is beyond my logical thinking capability.
That said, I can, and do, admire the work involved in molding those bred in 'man biting' traits of a protection breed into a solid working dog. However, owning a dog of that ability, requiring that amount of training, to fit into a home environment is a potential headache looming at every crossroads with that animal. IMHO, having to periodically and continually re-establish dominance over a dog would be just that. Some obviously enjoy that challenge, just not my idea of a dog I can trust.
These 'PPDs' are still only dogs, with feelings & emotions. They can have good days, and bad, just like humans. They ain't Ronco Rotisserie, where you "set it" and forget it" and they are ready to go, 24/7/365. That intense type of protection training requires ongoing 'polishing', if you will, same as ANY form of dog training.
As quoted by the expert trainer above, these dogs already "know how to bite". Combine that trait, with in-bred dominance aggression traits that bite work training builds off of, and you have a dog I'd rather not want to bother owning. Similarly, I won't own a dog that doesn't have the brains enough to recognize a legitmate threat, and the balls & physical prowess to react against one. IMHO, arm biting a padded sleeve can't train that good sense into a dog. That is little more than a stimulus response, learned by repetition and reinforcement of that dog's desire to physically dominate a human being.
Interesting thread, just sharing feelings to the contrary.
Course, this is 'Merica, so feed & train what ya like!
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knockemdown,
again, i would love for you to meet my dog. i think this would open your mind to what a well bred gsd is. my peaceful house will stay peaceful even with my dogs. my dogs are not bred for aggression, period. every dog has aggression in it! i also do need to ''establish'' dominance. every dog is different, and most handlers/owners that are bitten by their dog is usually because they were '' dominating the dog''. establishing leadership is much different than dominance! just because i respect someone does not mean i bow to them, i feel dogs should be the same way. many people should not own this type of dog, especially if you have something to prove. it's not a dick measuring contest. if you do not respect a dog, regardless of breed then you are a fool. i love all dogs, even the little ankle biters. my dog is very much a ronco rotisserie, he is always on. he doesn't need commands to know his job. like bogey stated above, the well bred GSD is a very intuative dog, one that is intelligent, he want's to please his pack, not dominate them. he is fearless but also good natured. i have a 6 yr old that he will take command's from, she is a whopping 3'10'' tall and 48 pounds! but my children are part of the pack, he will always be with them outside, or if they sleep in the living room he is there. He is ''my'' dog, but is also aware of where his pack is and makes decisions on his own also.
respectfully kenny
again, i would love for you to meet my dog. i think this would open your mind to what a well bred gsd is. my peaceful house will stay peaceful even with my dogs. my dogs are not bred for aggression, period. every dog has aggression in it! i also do need to ''establish'' dominance. every dog is different, and most handlers/owners that are bitten by their dog is usually because they were '' dominating the dog''. establishing leadership is much different than dominance! just because i respect someone does not mean i bow to them, i feel dogs should be the same way. many people should not own this type of dog, especially if you have something to prove. it's not a dick measuring contest. if you do not respect a dog, regardless of breed then you are a fool. i love all dogs, even the little ankle biters. my dog is very much a ronco rotisserie, he is always on. he doesn't need commands to know his job. like bogey stated above, the well bred GSD is a very intuative dog, one that is intelligent, he want's to please his pack, not dominate them. he is fearless but also good natured. i have a 6 yr old that he will take command's from, she is a whopping 3'10'' tall and 48 pounds! but my children are part of the pack, he will always be with them outside, or if they sleep in the living room he is there. He is ''my'' dog, but is also aware of where his pack is and makes decisions on his own also.
respectfully kenny
Bogey,
like you i'm not into breed bashing. i have my favorites and stick to them. i am going to a friends, bill at texoma this spring/summer to see some mals, that he insist's make great family pets. says they are much like a gsd and can turn off the drive. now i need to see this to believe it. as like you i think of them as freak dogs, always on, and looking for the ball/kong. i have never seen a dutchie that wouldn't work. that being said i don't have alot of experience with them as of yet. with the way my wife loves them though i see us having one in the future. so i am also looking at some while in europe. specifically looking in belgium and holland at some. mals, i have seem both ends of the spectrum, great and shit, and it seems there is no in the middle with them as for the ones i've seen, trained and met. it's usually either or, as in you have a great working dog that isn't a good family dog, or a ''shitter'' that is a great family dog but has no drives and won't work. i'm hoping bill can show me this phenom mal that is both, until then like you i'll stick with what i know works! now i have also seen some very nice rottweilers, and doberman's also. if anyone is looking for these specific breeds feel free to pm me and i can give a source for those. albeit there are less ''good'' or trusted sources of these. i do know of 1 for each, both of them are what i consider the expert in their breed. each of them has competed at the world championship level, also train ppd and police dogs, and generally are the go to people for me on this breeds!
onechance, thanks for the call today. i think our friendship will grow, and we have alot in common. i will find you the dog you seek while i'm in europe. although you may have to dig in them pockets for this elusive dog
. i am going to contact my friend and see if it's possible for us to get jamiro if his drives are what you are looking for. i hope you got somewhere we can shoot up there, if so i may deliver your dog to you. bring a few guns and we'll shoot, talk dogs, drink a few and have a good time.
regards kenny
like you i'm not into breed bashing. i have my favorites and stick to them. i am going to a friends, bill at texoma this spring/summer to see some mals, that he insist's make great family pets. says they are much like a gsd and can turn off the drive. now i need to see this to believe it. as like you i think of them as freak dogs, always on, and looking for the ball/kong. i have never seen a dutchie that wouldn't work. that being said i don't have alot of experience with them as of yet. with the way my wife loves them though i see us having one in the future. so i am also looking at some while in europe. specifically looking in belgium and holland at some. mals, i have seem both ends of the spectrum, great and shit, and it seems there is no in the middle with them as for the ones i've seen, trained and met. it's usually either or, as in you have a great working dog that isn't a good family dog, or a ''shitter'' that is a great family dog but has no drives and won't work. i'm hoping bill can show me this phenom mal that is both, until then like you i'll stick with what i know works! now i have also seen some very nice rottweilers, and doberman's also. if anyone is looking for these specific breeds feel free to pm me and i can give a source for those. albeit there are less ''good'' or trusted sources of these. i do know of 1 for each, both of them are what i consider the expert in their breed. each of them has competed at the world championship level, also train ppd and police dogs, and generally are the go to people for me on this breeds!
onechance, thanks for the call today. i think our friendship will grow, and we have alot in common. i will find you the dog you seek while i'm in europe. although you may have to dig in them pockets for this elusive dog
. i am going to contact my friend and see if it's possible for us to get jamiro if his drives are what you are looking for. i hope you got somewhere we can shoot up there, if so i may deliver your dog to you. bring a few guns and we'll shoot, talk dogs, drink a few and have a good time.regards kenny
Kenny,
If you do indeed find those Mals that have both the stability and the drives, I'd love to hear about them. I'm not saying I haven't worked with a few that were manageable, but the "issue" I have is that I don't get to "just" train dogs: I have to train dog TEAMS. I get a 2yr old dog ( according to the papers, wink wink) AND a handler and have to get them working together. Someone else, actually several entities, have been involved in "training" that dog up to that point and I have to pull it all together, get the dog and handler working with each other, and get them certified to a specific standard. Training dogs is MUCH easier than training people, and training people to work with their dog makes for some long days and chain-smoking.
Not everyone has the personality to work a Mal. I admit that I don't have the personality to WORK most Mals. I can train them, but I don't want to handle one. Young guys with 30" biceps WANT the Mals because of the CDI factor. I'll stick with a stable GSD and take the "slow and steady wins the race" approach while the guy with the MAL is getting drug all over creation, being ignored by his dog during bitework, and usually getting bit for thinking he's going to "Alpha up" on his dog.
All the Dutchies I've worked with have been European imports and with a couple of noticeable exceptions tended much more towards the Mal side of the family tree. They are some working fools, but much closer to Mals than Sheps in their temperaments.
One trend we've been seeing out of Europe is the "Malin-Sheps" or "Shepinois" crosses. Their papers say they're one or the other, but you can look at the dogs and clearly see that someone is playing around with cross-breeding the two. Some of THOSE dogs have been pretty damn good and are a blast on controlled aggression: Shepherd size/Mal speed & commitment with some brain cells at work.
If you do indeed find those Mals that have both the stability and the drives, I'd love to hear about them. I'm not saying I haven't worked with a few that were manageable, but the "issue" I have is that I don't get to "just" train dogs: I have to train dog TEAMS. I get a 2yr old dog ( according to the papers, wink wink) AND a handler and have to get them working together. Someone else, actually several entities, have been involved in "training" that dog up to that point and I have to pull it all together, get the dog and handler working with each other, and get them certified to a specific standard. Training dogs is MUCH easier than training people, and training people to work with their dog makes for some long days and chain-smoking.
Not everyone has the personality to work a Mal. I admit that I don't have the personality to WORK most Mals. I can train them, but I don't want to handle one. Young guys with 30" biceps WANT the Mals because of the CDI factor. I'll stick with a stable GSD and take the "slow and steady wins the race" approach while the guy with the MAL is getting drug all over creation, being ignored by his dog during bitework, and usually getting bit for thinking he's going to "Alpha up" on his dog.
All the Dutchies I've worked with have been European imports and with a couple of noticeable exceptions tended much more towards the Mal side of the family tree. They are some working fools, but much closer to Mals than Sheps in their temperaments.
One trend we've been seeing out of Europe is the "Malin-Sheps" or "Shepinois" crosses. Their papers say they're one or the other, but you can look at the dogs and clearly see that someone is playing around with cross-breeding the two. Some of THOSE dogs have been pretty damn good and are a blast on controlled aggression: Shepherd size/Mal speed & commitment with some brain cells at work.
Import GSD, I appreciate the response. Surely I would admire your dog, just as I would any sound canine companion! As it were, my mind is completely open to recognizing that in any breed, GSDs notwithstanding.
That said, breed traits are what they are. Working 'protection' breeds have been, and still are, bred with an emphasis on physical aggression towards humans as a measuring stick. That drive is there by human design, its not any breed's fault they are how they are by human selection...
I think bogeybrown made an excellent comparison, relating a high drive Mal to a "supermodel/Italian sportscar" of the dog world. To a lesser degree, I feel the same can be said for most 'protection' breeds. Just as the average Joe has the ability to lose control of his high dollar sports car, the same analogy can be used toward these high drive, high ability, dominance aggressive PPDs. If you ain't up on the wheel, sooner or later, they'll come around on ya and you'll have a wreck. Factor in the part about a dog having a mind of it's own, and one will quickly realize that establshing, and more importantly, maintaining total control of that animal, is never a certainty. Surely, you can not say with absolute certainty that your dog would NEVER make a mistake, or challenge ANYONE's authority? Again, these are not robots, we're talking dogs here...
Even the greatest working dog in the world is far from perfect at it's job at one time or another, simply because it is a living, breathing animal, with specfic instinctual drives and traits built in. Proper selective breeding & training can not, and will not ever fully insulate a dog from imposing its own will on a situation.
To that end, I choose to steer clear of 'protection' breeds as companion animals, simply based on those facts. That's not to say I cannot appreciate one in an working environment, I can and do! I simply do not believe that the natural drive for a dog to "protect" its family is breed selective. Nor do I believe that a dog needs to be trained in bite work to be fully capable of acting on that natural drive.
In protection breeds, the willingness to bite humans is already there, bred in for years and years. This has been stated above by another expert trainer, about "knowing how to bite". Much the same, the desire for a Walker Hound to trail & tree has been bred into the breed, and a Greyhound's desire to sight chase a fleeing critter is hard wired in that breed.
You just don't turn those in-bred drives OFF with training. You specifically breed those drives INTO the dog, then modify them to your desired outcome. But the fact remains, that drive will always be there, if the dog is bred to performance type. Which, again, is precisely why I choose to not own any 'protection' breeds as a companion animal.
Nothing personal, and I didn't wish to put you in a position to defend your beloved breed! We all have our favorites, I'm just not hung up on any one breed as having a monopoly on having the ability and desire to protect it's family unit and territory. I'd like for you to see the zeal with which my trashy little cur dog puts toward protecting me, my family, my truck, and my home. IMHO, he's just doing what any good dog is supposed to do. Which has been my point all along...
Take care and enjoy your canines!
That said, breed traits are what they are. Working 'protection' breeds have been, and still are, bred with an emphasis on physical aggression towards humans as a measuring stick. That drive is there by human design, its not any breed's fault they are how they are by human selection...
I think bogeybrown made an excellent comparison, relating a high drive Mal to a "supermodel/Italian sportscar" of the dog world. To a lesser degree, I feel the same can be said for most 'protection' breeds. Just as the average Joe has the ability to lose control of his high dollar sports car, the same analogy can be used toward these high drive, high ability, dominance aggressive PPDs. If you ain't up on the wheel, sooner or later, they'll come around on ya and you'll have a wreck. Factor in the part about a dog having a mind of it's own, and one will quickly realize that establshing, and more importantly, maintaining total control of that animal, is never a certainty. Surely, you can not say with absolute certainty that your dog would NEVER make a mistake, or challenge ANYONE's authority? Again, these are not robots, we're talking dogs here...
Even the greatest working dog in the world is far from perfect at it's job at one time or another, simply because it is a living, breathing animal, with specfic instinctual drives and traits built in. Proper selective breeding & training can not, and will not ever fully insulate a dog from imposing its own will on a situation.
To that end, I choose to steer clear of 'protection' breeds as companion animals, simply based on those facts. That's not to say I cannot appreciate one in an working environment, I can and do! I simply do not believe that the natural drive for a dog to "protect" its family is breed selective. Nor do I believe that a dog needs to be trained in bite work to be fully capable of acting on that natural drive.
In protection breeds, the willingness to bite humans is already there, bred in for years and years. This has been stated above by another expert trainer, about "knowing how to bite". Much the same, the desire for a Walker Hound to trail & tree has been bred into the breed, and a Greyhound's desire to sight chase a fleeing critter is hard wired in that breed.
You just don't turn those in-bred drives OFF with training. You specifically breed those drives INTO the dog, then modify them to your desired outcome. But the fact remains, that drive will always be there, if the dog is bred to performance type. Which, again, is precisely why I choose to not own any 'protection' breeds as a companion animal.
Nothing personal, and I didn't wish to put you in a position to defend your beloved breed! We all have our favorites, I'm just not hung up on any one breed as having a monopoly on having the ability and desire to protect it's family unit and territory. I'd like for you to see the zeal with which my trashy little cur dog puts toward protecting me, my family, my truck, and my home. IMHO, he's just doing what any good dog is supposed to do. Which has been my point all along...
Take care and enjoy your canines!
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All dogs can bite. I've been bitten by a black lab, cocker spaniel and a chiwawa (all chiwawa's should have their heads pinched off). They all had one thing in common, the dogs bite out of fear. None were trained to bite, when to bite or to not bite. You've probably seen news stories about 'pit bulls' biting people. The pictures of the dogs almost never look like a real, full blood pit and the reason you here about them and not the damned chiwawa that bit me is because of the strength of the dog. IMHO (I'm not schooled like the trainers here) a good dog (basic yard dog w/ guts, like a cur or plot) may very well protect it's owner, but it's most likely going to be when the owner is attacked, not before hand.
Knockem,
I really am enjoying your perspective on this. If my supermodel analogy was helpful, let me see if I can take it a step further to better explain where these dogs' "aggression" is coming from:
Let's look at guys in a bar:
We've all seen the little guy that gets full of liquid courage and starts yapping at people. That guy is typically coming from some a lack of confidence which he's trying to mask with a SHOW of aggression (most of those guys bark a lot and have very little bite).
You have the juice-heads that strut into the bar with their chests poked out and their arms so far out to their sides that it looks like their armpits are sunburned. Again a SHOW of strength that serves as a DETERRENT to a challenge but we've all seen these guys get KTFO by a guy half their size when push comes to shove.
You have the quiet guy that has NO desire whatsoever to get into a fight and will back down as far as he possibly can to avoid a confrontation. That guy will either allow himself to get beaten unconscious or will absolutely lose his shit, roll his eyes back into his head and lash out blindly out of fear. Those guys can end up really hurting someone because they lose control and have hit condition "black" where their brain isn't working anymore.
Then you have the quiet guy that just has a "presence" about him that smart people know not to fuck with. He doesn't talk shit, puff out his chest, or instigate anything. BUT, that guy doesn't back down an inch when confronted and lays the other guy out with a couple of punches and goes back to drinking his beer.
The quiet guy with the "presence" is the dog we're talking about. They know in their hearts that they can win when they "need to" and don't need to talk shit or posture. They're not going to go bully someone because they can. They take in the situation and act appropriately with a clear mind and a confidence that they're going to win. They don't keep hitting long after the fight is won, they don't talk shit with the bouncers on the way to the door. That dog is the buddy of yours that you want with you when you walk into a shit-hole bar on $1 pitcher night because you KNOW in your heart that there isn't a guy in that place that can take him. He isn't going to start any trouble, but he's not going to let any trouble start on YOU either.
I really am enjoying your perspective on this. If my supermodel analogy was helpful, let me see if I can take it a step further to better explain where these dogs' "aggression" is coming from:
Let's look at guys in a bar:
We've all seen the little guy that gets full of liquid courage and starts yapping at people. That guy is typically coming from some a lack of confidence which he's trying to mask with a SHOW of aggression (most of those guys bark a lot and have very little bite).
You have the juice-heads that strut into the bar with their chests poked out and their arms so far out to their sides that it looks like their armpits are sunburned. Again a SHOW of strength that serves as a DETERRENT to a challenge but we've all seen these guys get KTFO by a guy half their size when push comes to shove.
You have the quiet guy that has NO desire whatsoever to get into a fight and will back down as far as he possibly can to avoid a confrontation. That guy will either allow himself to get beaten unconscious or will absolutely lose his shit, roll his eyes back into his head and lash out blindly out of fear. Those guys can end up really hurting someone because they lose control and have hit condition "black" where their brain isn't working anymore.
Then you have the quiet guy that just has a "presence" about him that smart people know not to fuck with. He doesn't talk shit, puff out his chest, or instigate anything. BUT, that guy doesn't back down an inch when confronted and lays the other guy out with a couple of punches and goes back to drinking his beer.
The quiet guy with the "presence" is the dog we're talking about. They know in their hearts that they can win when they "need to" and don't need to talk shit or posture. They're not going to go bully someone because they can. They take in the situation and act appropriately with a clear mind and a confidence that they're going to win. They don't keep hitting long after the fight is won, they don't talk shit with the bouncers on the way to the door. That dog is the buddy of yours that you want with you when you walk into a shit-hole bar on $1 pitcher night because you KNOW in your heart that there isn't a guy in that place that can take him. He isn't going to start any trouble, but he's not going to let any trouble start on YOU either.
bogey, that was a great analogy.
knockem, the only thing i don't understand with your post is this seemingly ''inbred'' desire for agression towards humans? the aggression has actually been bred in large part out of the working breeds. think of it this way, to the dog protection is taught as a game, more so in schutzhund and like dog sports. but as a whole defense drive has been bred out and replaced by prey drive in most instances. this is because the dog is very '' clear headed'' in this drive state. defense drive is more like fight or flight, it is like Mtncreek was stating about fear biters, i do not want my dog to bite out of fear as this is very unpredictable, and also it is harder to control the dog in this state of mind. protection is less about ''dominating'' and more about ''winning''. think of it like a sport, anyone that loses constantly is not go to continue that sport but rather find something that they win at. our dogs are taught from the beginning to win, this is where experience as the helper/ agitator comes in and had better have his shit together. i can ruin the most well bred dog in the world in less than a minute by doing certain things that will cause the dog to doubt it's abilities. you speak of hunting dogs, which i know alittle about as i'm from illinois originally and have many friends that own,train, use coon dogs. think of it like a coon whipping a young coon dog, that dog is not going to be a ''great'' dog ever after that, this is the reason my friends always send the young dogs with more experienced dogs while hunting, thus they learn to win. same with us, we start by using the dogs natural drives and teach him he can win. earlier i stated that many people think because a gsd is big at 1 yr old he can protect them, nothing is farther from the truth. this is still very much a puppy in his mind, he is not mature and putting him in that situation is asking for trouble either then or in the future. generally i don't need a dog to protect me, but he's nice to have along ''just in case''. for the most part my dog is for my family when i am not home. that being said anyone here looking to get such a dog needs to include their family in the training of the dog. everyone, in the family, needs to understand the dog, it's capabilities, and how to handle it.
regards kenny
knockem, the only thing i don't understand with your post is this seemingly ''inbred'' desire for agression towards humans? the aggression has actually been bred in large part out of the working breeds. think of it this way, to the dog protection is taught as a game, more so in schutzhund and like dog sports. but as a whole defense drive has been bred out and replaced by prey drive in most instances. this is because the dog is very '' clear headed'' in this drive state. defense drive is more like fight or flight, it is like Mtncreek was stating about fear biters, i do not want my dog to bite out of fear as this is very unpredictable, and also it is harder to control the dog in this state of mind. protection is less about ''dominating'' and more about ''winning''. think of it like a sport, anyone that loses constantly is not go to continue that sport but rather find something that they win at. our dogs are taught from the beginning to win, this is where experience as the helper/ agitator comes in and had better have his shit together. i can ruin the most well bred dog in the world in less than a minute by doing certain things that will cause the dog to doubt it's abilities. you speak of hunting dogs, which i know alittle about as i'm from illinois originally and have many friends that own,train, use coon dogs. think of it like a coon whipping a young coon dog, that dog is not going to be a ''great'' dog ever after that, this is the reason my friends always send the young dogs with more experienced dogs while hunting, thus they learn to win. same with us, we start by using the dogs natural drives and teach him he can win. earlier i stated that many people think because a gsd is big at 1 yr old he can protect them, nothing is farther from the truth. this is still very much a puppy in his mind, he is not mature and putting him in that situation is asking for trouble either then or in the future. generally i don't need a dog to protect me, but he's nice to have along ''just in case''. for the most part my dog is for my family when i am not home. that being said anyone here looking to get such a dog needs to include their family in the training of the dog. everyone, in the family, needs to understand the dog, it's capabilities, and how to handle it.
regards kenny
Bogey & import gsd,
Thank you for your replies. They were both very helpful and informative. It sounds like the right dog, provided with work to get rid of excess energy, can be both a companion and brother in arms. I can't imagine the bond a handler has with his dog. I don't have the time or training to own one of these dogs, but I love watching dogs work. There is something amazing about seeing a dog do what he was bred for. I'm speaking mostly of hunting dogs, since I have zero experience with protection dogs. Whenever I'm around German Shepherds, I feel like they are sizing me up and know they can get in my as if he wants. It's not just an instinct thing. It literally feels like that dog KNOWS he will win, but isn't going to do it. I may just imagine this, but I've felt that around several of these type dogs.
Thank you for your replies. They were both very helpful and informative. It sounds like the right dog, provided with work to get rid of excess energy, can be both a companion and brother in arms. I can't imagine the bond a handler has with his dog. I don't have the time or training to own one of these dogs, but I love watching dogs work. There is something amazing about seeing a dog do what he was bred for. I'm speaking mostly of hunting dogs, since I have zero experience with protection dogs. Whenever I'm around German Shepherds, I feel like they are sizing me up and know they can get in my as if he wants. It's not just an instinct thing. It literally feels like that dog KNOWS he will win, but isn't going to do it. I may just imagine this, but I've felt that around several of these type dogs.
The "sizing you up" is pretty much dead on. I worked one of the only GSDs in the area years ago and I got that comment quite a bit from whoever was catching dogs that day.
The Mals barked and showed off and looked cool with their air time into the bite, but my guy would just STARE at the decoy (agitator). He didn't bark until I'd start my verbal challenges or until I TOLD him to bark. He didn't need to. That dog didn't need to talk trash, he just came in and hit like a truck and crushed the sleeve/suit while trying to put the decoy on his ass. The whole damn time he was staring into the decoy's eyes. He'd out on command with zero correction and would just sit and guard or return to me if I told him to. Inevitably the agitator would make a comment along the lines of my dog scaring the piss out of him more so than the Mals with all their noise and thrashing around on the bite. They'd tell me that they could feel that dog getting inside their head and it was unnerving.
He was that way on the street as well. He'd sit politely next to me and just watch people. He didn't bark or cut up, he just watched intently. I could tell by his body language when something interested him and he could tell from mine when something wasn't right. A good bit of the time he'd sit in a perfect heel facing behind me. I never taught him that, he just instinctively watched my back, LITERALLY. If he grumbled I knew something required my attention.
Not to start war stories (because we don't stop when we start on "my dog did this") but as an illustration of what makes a properly-driven dog different:
On the way home from work most days, we'd stop off at a patch of woods by the house and we'd do some off-leash obedience and work on some things. Some days we'd run tracks and some days he'd just run around and piss on trees and unwind after a day at work. Well one day I had just cut him off-leash and here comes a guy bounding out of the woods with a mask and a gun. My dog gave me one low grumble and was OFF in full-on "I'm going to fuck something up" mode. He was halfway there and I was out of the holster when I realized it was a damn paintballer and the guy was completely oblivious to either me or my dog out in the woods. I gave that dog ONE command to stop and come back and he put on the brakes and returned to my side. The paintballer never even saw us.
That dog showed ZERO hesitation when confronted with a threat. He didn't take a step back and bark, he didn't look to me for reassurance, he read the situation himself and committed 100% to a life or death fight. He was still clear-headed enough that he responded INSTANTLY to my command to stop and he came back to my side and gave me a "are you sure I can't kill him?" look on his face, but he was as calm as he could be. No barking, no bullshit. He respected my role in the team, and I praised the hell out of him and made him feel like he'd won that fight without ever having fought it.
chefcam,
that is what i like to call a dog with presence. like bogey said that's the guy in the bar you know will give someone a bad day. that type of dog is alot more rare than people would think. this is also the reason i'm going to europe. sure i can have a dog shipped over, and it may or maynot be what i want. being there in person i can see a dogs drives and nerves. i can feel the dogs presence, and possibly see his puppies and what he/ she produces. 90% of that presence is in the raising and training of the dog, as a puppy you seldom see this, not saying it doesn't happen, but usually it's a development. you can never tell with a puppy witch will be high drive, or serious in their work. any breeder that claims to be able to is full of shit! i can give you my opinion based on previous breedings, knowledge of bloodlines, and genetics, but it isn't a guaruntee. the best puppy may not mature into what you want. onechance and i have had a few phone call's on this. i can offer a puppy and even offer a replacement if he isn't what you wanted, but it is easier to start with a young dog that show's what you want when you are already seasoned or know the exact type, color, and such. that being said, you also have to be patient on a dog like that, i am not the only person looking for that dog. also whoever has a dog of that caliber usually know's what the market will pay, generally more than the dog is worth to me, but others will pay some steep prices for what they desire. some handler/ trainers don't even own some dogs, they are bought by someone with deep pockets as a backer. i am not that guy. i generally don't like those people either. like anything else opinions are like assholes, we all have 1.
best regards kenny
that is what i like to call a dog with presence. like bogey said that's the guy in the bar you know will give someone a bad day. that type of dog is alot more rare than people would think. this is also the reason i'm going to europe. sure i can have a dog shipped over, and it may or maynot be what i want. being there in person i can see a dogs drives and nerves. i can feel the dogs presence, and possibly see his puppies and what he/ she produces. 90% of that presence is in the raising and training of the dog, as a puppy you seldom see this, not saying it doesn't happen, but usually it's a development. you can never tell with a puppy witch will be high drive, or serious in their work. any breeder that claims to be able to is full of shit! i can give you my opinion based on previous breedings, knowledge of bloodlines, and genetics, but it isn't a guaruntee. the best puppy may not mature into what you want. onechance and i have had a few phone call's on this. i can offer a puppy and even offer a replacement if he isn't what you wanted, but it is easier to start with a young dog that show's what you want when you are already seasoned or know the exact type, color, and such. that being said, you also have to be patient on a dog like that, i am not the only person looking for that dog. also whoever has a dog of that caliber usually know's what the market will pay, generally more than the dog is worth to me, but others will pay some steep prices for what they desire. some handler/ trainers don't even own some dogs, they are bought by someone with deep pockets as a backer. i am not that guy. i generally don't like those people either. like anything else opinions are like assholes, we all have 1.
best regards kenny
I had the great pleasure of getting to know Trevor and Chopper personal level. Chopper is a remarkable frog dog with an incredible personality, one of the finest ive ever met and Trevor is a pioneer in NSW canine training and employment. Heres a clip done on them last year.
NRA Life of Duty | Frog Dog
NRA Life of Duty | Frog Dog
The analogy about the guy in the bar that anyone with a keen sense of self preservation knows not to mess with is a good one. like was stated earlier, the dog ( or bar room killer) doesn't need to bark or announce his presence. You'll know he's there when he's on you. When this German Shepherds look me up and down so calmly, I can see the confidence in their posture and the way they look at me. I've always been intimidated by it. I know this is an intelligent animal that is going to THINK of the best way to mess me up. That's what I meant by it not being an instinct thing. I've only experienced this with Shepherds, but it may be true of other breeds. Mallinois have never made me feel that way. I guess because they're not calm enough. By the way, none of these were working dogs. They were all pets. Good ones too!. I think it is the shepherd's intelligence that makes them so fearsome.
This may be a dumb question, but are the dogs that are deployed with special operations guys trained to kill? I mean do they go for the neck , or do they go for the arm? Can they be trained to both? Do they not become crazy excited when the action starts, or are they just that well bred/trained? I'm glad there are some experts on here, since I've always wondered how the dogs are. They seem like super dogs.
This may be a dumb question, but are the dogs that are deployed with special operations guys trained to kill? I mean do they go for the neck , or do they go for the arm? Can they be trained to both? Do they not become crazy excited when the action starts, or are they just that well bred/trained? I'm glad there are some experts on here, since I've always wondered how the dogs are. They seem like super dogs.
chefcam,
i cannot say about the socom dogs, as i do not train them. you can however train a dog to target a specific area. some dogs are also trained to transition bites, they may grab a leg, arm or flank at first, then re-grip another area. we have trained a dog to target the groin area before. i must say it was not fun doing decoy work ! muzzle fighting is also interesting. to the second part of your question the dogs are trained under stress, to kind of climatize to being around it and still under control, but also if you notice most of the work is done on leash as it gives the handler much more control over the situation. the dogs do get amped up as most are feeding off of the handler and team around it. especially with the shepherds as they are more in tune as other's and myself have spoken about before.
regards kenny
p.s. the only dumb questions are those not asked. not everyone is experienced in every breed. even cesar milan will take working dogs to trainers of their type, i've seen it with a gsd and a mal on his show. cesar is more training the owner than the dog. much like bogey is doing, which i do not envy as i prefer to train dogs, and not so much people. most are not open minded and explaining things over and over get's old, fast
i cannot say about the socom dogs, as i do not train them. you can however train a dog to target a specific area. some dogs are also trained to transition bites, they may grab a leg, arm or flank at first, then re-grip another area. we have trained a dog to target the groin area before. i must say it was not fun doing decoy work ! muzzle fighting is also interesting. to the second part of your question the dogs are trained under stress, to kind of climatize to being around it and still under control, but also if you notice most of the work is done on leash as it gives the handler much more control over the situation. the dogs do get amped up as most are feeding off of the handler and team around it. especially with the shepherds as they are more in tune as other's and myself have spoken about before.
regards kenny
p.s. the only dumb questions are those not asked. not everyone is experienced in every breed. even cesar milan will take working dogs to trainers of their type, i've seen it with a gsd and a mal on his show. cesar is more training the owner than the dog. much like bogey is doing, which i do not envy as i prefer to train dogs, and not so much people. most are not open minded and explaining things over and over get's old, fast
Chef,
None of those dogs I ever encountered were "trained to kill" in the sense that you're talking about. However, there were some VERY strong dogs doing CQB work which is a sub-specialty of it's own. SOCOM is actually doing some pretty neat stuff with their CQB dogs that I'd prefer not to get into.
What you WILL see with a dog that's learned how to FIGHT is the willingness to bite whatever it can to dominate the situation rather than just the "target" areas common for sport dogs. LE sees this in the no-shit fights they get into where their dog ends up biting the head or the groin. They're also much better at using their whole bodies when on the bite instead of just their mouths. I call it "Dog-Jitsu" when I'm catching a dog that's learned how to use its whole body and he's constantly working his position and body angles to lock me up and break my balance to get me down. As Kenny mentioned, muzzle fighting helps to bring that out. Catching a dog during muzzle work sucks for the decoy, and I think all of us have seen decoys get knocked out or hurt pretty bad while doing it. I attached a super short youtube vid of why I usually leave the muzzle decoy work to guys who've had the additional training in it (and are a little younger and dumber
)Decoy gets knocked out by K9!! - YouTube
To the post that started this Snake River k9 do have 5 star pups and are nothing but the best pups but they are $$$$$$$$$$ my white GSD came from one of there breeders her blood line is top notch hip elbows heck even DNA for all of them. But I got mine as a pup and trained her myself and stoped when she got to be a solid level 1. I do have to say they can justify there asking price because there in Jackson Hole and if anyone has been there they know you can sell shit for $$$ plus to have a level 3 dog is a massive amount of time. So if your going to spend a minum of 12 hours a day training a dog for a year strait in a location were a studio goes for 700 a month how much you going to ask for it when its all said and done. Plus there place there is really nice ok its damn nice.
I'm happy to hear you found a "good" white GSD, for the longest time they were the Dalmations of the GSD sub-breeds with massive medical/mental issues from all inbreeding.
This entire site/forum is a testament to the idea that something is "worth" what someone will pay for it, look at what we have tied up in shooting equipment compared to the "average" shooter or hunter. That being said, Snake River's prices are absurd, PERIOD. PERIOD!!! I don't care if they nurse on bottles of unicorn semen for the first year, those prices are absurdly out of line. NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE spends a "minimum of 12hrs a day for a year straight" training a dog. They may spend a year developing a dog, but no one is actively engaging in training with a dog for 12hrs a day.
Jackson Hole Wyoming is not Manhattan or Beverly Hills, so the idea that the increase in cost of living in Jackson Hole somehow justifies those prices is also ridiculous. If there's a working dog kennel in the penthouse of some apartment overlooking Central Park, and the dogs are raised on bovine colostrum, Kobe beef, and Osetra caviar and THEY tell me that their dogs cost 5 to 10 times the industry standard (conservatively) then I may buy that thinking.
Let me apologize sincerely if that seems like I'm in any way criticizing YOU, or even arguing with YOU because I'm not. I simply got worked up all over again at the idea of someone (Snake River) claiming they're doing some magic shit with a dog that costs that much money.
I was speaking in terms of the target of that drive, being a human.
Tree dogs want their fur, been selectively bred to love finding and treeing it.
Game dogs want that dog across the pit, been selectively bred to love it
Coursing dogs want that vermin, and they love nothing more than to chase it. Been selectively bred for just that
And, protection dogs have been bred to BITE PEOPLE...and love it.
PPDs think of protection work as a game, and training is centered around keeping bite work "fun", is it not?
A gamedog sees canine battle as playtime. Selectively bred to enjoy it, and schooled to keep rolls " fun"
My cur dog loves nothing more than to hunt, find a track, trail and catch/tree some fur. That drive was bred into him and hunting is his favorite type of fun.
A good bird dog, or greyhound is the same way, the drive to hunt manifests itself as playtime.
We call it " work", but the selectively bred performance dog is hard wired to enjoy its job. As trainers, insuring that schooling remains fun and positive is the key to harnessing and realizing that bred-in drive to " work". In the case of PPDs, a large part of that " work" is centered around BITING PEOPLE, which comes natural to them, thanks to our selective breeding for that desire and ability...
Perhaps I miss-spoke on the exact terminology, but the fact is that the performance breeding of protection dogs is centered around an attack on a human being. IE, almost by default due to selective breeding, a human aggressive trait is not only passed along, but it is sought after and encouraged. Much the same as a good hound will instinctively "open" on scent, and find that tree! The ' good ones ' have those traits passed along, the desire is already ingrained in the performance dogs psyche. A good trainer seeks out a prospect with the tools for the task in place, and doesn't waste time with a prospect lacking in necessary drive and ability.
This is precisely why PPD breeds are bred to possess the "man biting" trait. Call it what you want, " prey drive" or whatever. Sounding like a broken record here agin, but BITING PEOPLE comes natural to a "well bred" PPD. They like it and they think it's fun! Just as POINTING comes natural to a "well bred" GSP or Vizla...
Which goes full circle back to that quote:"they already know how to bite"....and IMHO, who to bite . IE., biting people is a perfectly acceptable response to a human stimulus.
And to think that a trainer can fully control that natural drive and ability 100% of the time, is folly. No offense, it ain't happenin'...cuz they're still just a dog...
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If your in the market for an estate guard/man stopper ( or pretty much any type of blood pumper ) all weather type of K-9 weapon you need look no further than the South Russian Ovcharka aka. Caucasion Shepherd. Take a min. and look it up. Average 180lbs of bad ass protection. Almost any other dog would be a chew toy.....But still just a quick squeeze away from the dirt knap. Now if you had 2 of them..?
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Oh, I'm SURE you know a lot about this breed from first hand experience.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
knockem,
i'm not going to agree they have been bred to BITE PEOPLE, i'm not going to argue either as this is your belief and i'm fine with that. i will however off that if i get up your way will bring a couple trained dogs and let you meet them, we can do some dog training, and work the dogs alittle. and learn from each other. maybe i can explain the ''ppd/ sport terminology '' and you seeing the dog in drives associated will help understand, what i see.
snowdin, can you tell me or link me your bloodlines? i have never seen a top notch bloodline for a white gsd. i do however track them and the mutated gene that causes the white. if it is 1 of snake rivers breeders you bought a white from that would further affirm they are over charging, as a white is not recognized by the fci and is a fault. anyways it's like bogey said a dog is only worth what someone will pay. i sell puppies when i have a litter from 800-1200$ depending on cost of parents, training, what stud fee i paid if a euro stud was used. if i bred the litter here, or had a female shipped to me in whelp from europe. 2nd part is yo don't train a dog 12 hrs a day everyday for a year. dogs burn out just like atheletes do. on top of that, 1 a puppy cannot be expected to retain more than 5-10 minutes of training at a time, spread out over the day. what you are paying for at snake river is overhead cost! big nice website, trainers, equiptment, and on top of it their trained in africa? so shipping and what launguage are they trained in?like bogey it pisses me off to hear a company making these claims and charging these amounts. i'm not criticizing or arguing , just making statements to educate people. NO dog is worth 20,30,80k $, average k9 lifespan 10-14 yrs, so just say you paid 8k a year for piece of mind and companionship. well i can sell you a world level competitor cross trained in ppd for 50k all day long, i'll even include 7 days training for you and your family at YOUR house with that price .
i'm not going to agree they have been bred to BITE PEOPLE, i'm not going to argue either as this is your belief and i'm fine with that. i will however off that if i get up your way will bring a couple trained dogs and let you meet them, we can do some dog training, and work the dogs alittle. and learn from each other. maybe i can explain the ''ppd/ sport terminology '' and you seeing the dog in drives associated will help understand, what i see.
snowdin, can you tell me or link me your bloodlines? i have never seen a top notch bloodline for a white gsd. i do however track them and the mutated gene that causes the white. if it is 1 of snake rivers breeders you bought a white from that would further affirm they are over charging, as a white is not recognized by the fci and is a fault. anyways it's like bogey said a dog is only worth what someone will pay. i sell puppies when i have a litter from 800-1200$ depending on cost of parents, training, what stud fee i paid if a euro stud was used. if i bred the litter here, or had a female shipped to me in whelp from europe. 2nd part is yo don't train a dog 12 hrs a day everyday for a year. dogs burn out just like atheletes do. on top of that, 1 a puppy cannot be expected to retain more than 5-10 minutes of training at a time, spread out over the day. what you are paying for at snake river is overhead cost! big nice website, trainers, equiptment, and on top of it their trained in africa? so shipping and what launguage are they trained in?like bogey it pisses me off to hear a company making these claims and charging these amounts. i'm not criticizing or arguing , just making statements to educate people. NO dog is worth 20,30,80k $, average k9 lifespan 10-14 yrs, so just say you paid 8k a year for piece of mind and companionship. well i can sell you a world level competitor cross trained in ppd for 50k all day long
, i'll even include 7 days training for you and your family at YOUR house with that price .Chef,
None of those dogs I ever encountered were "trained to kill" in the sense that you're talking about. However, there were some VERY strong dogs doing CQB work which is a sub-specialty of it's own. SOCOM is actually doing some pretty neat stuff with their CQB dogs that I'd prefer not to get into.
What you WILL see with a dog that's learned how to FIGHT is the willingness to bite whatever it can to dominate the situation rather than just the "target" areas common for sport dogs. LE sees this in the no-shit fights they get into where their dog ends up biting the head or the groin. They're also much better at using their whole bodies when on the bite instead of just their mouths. I call it "Dog-Jitsu" when I'm catching a dog that's learned how to use its whole body and he's constantly working his position and body angles to lock me up and break my balance to get me down. As Kenny mentioned, muzzle fighting helps to bring that out. Catching a dog during muzzle work sucks for the decoy, and I think all of us have seen decoys get knocked out or hurt pretty bad while doing it. I attached a super short youtube vid of why I usually leave the muzzle decoy work to guys who've had the additional training in it (and are a little younger and dumber
Decoy gets knocked out by K9!! - YouTube
Holy shit! That dog knocked the piss out of that guy. I understand why you wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that training. That would suck to have to do day in day out for week .
Knockem,
Your post about the Sporting dog breeds really helped me to understand where you're coming from. I get it now, I hope.
I used to hunt Blackmouth Curs and they were a blast. I'll always have a special love for Labs and Retrievers just for how different they are from Sheps. If I don't get another Shepherd once I'm home, it'll likely be another Golden, just for the ease of ownership (other than burning up vacuums every three months trying to keep up with their shedding).
As far as the protection dogs "wanting" to bite someone, it's difficult to explain. I'll give it a shot and hope I'm not REALLY making things worse. Yes, we make protection work fun for the dog when they're learning. We use the dog's play/prey drive to teach them the game and make them want to play it. However, the dogs that are going to advance beyond dog-sport get taken into their defensive drives. At that point it's no longer a game. We stress the dog and put him into a "fight", then we let him win that fight.
To put that into human terms, most of us have had an incident where we were horse playing with a buddy, wrestling around or whatever and at some point someone got their feelings hurt and turned into a REAL fight. In the beginning it was all fun and games and no one was trying to hurt each other, our protective instincts weren't really switched on because there was no real danger to us and we were just having fun. At that moment when your buddy bit you, scratched you, punched you in the face, whatever, that protective instinct switched on and it quit being a game. You had to "switch on" and get serious or you were going to get your ass kicked.
Visualize the difference between martial arts sparring and MMA. They both involve people punching/kicking each other, but one is for fun or for score, and the other one typically involves actual aggression and the willingness to hurt the other guy.
Dog-sport is sparring, Protection work is in the Octagon.
If you've ever spent time around TRULY dangerous men, you've seen what we're talking about with a stable protection dog. The Tier 1 guys that are actual no-shit life-takers are the most laid back guys you'll ever meet. They're typically the first guy to pay a compliment to someone "beneath" them, they don't bully people or act like assholes. They're quiet professionals that have the CAPABILITY of inflicting great harm or death and because they KNOW that they possess that skill they're very quiet and confident. They don't need to display to anyone that they're tough, they just are. You can spot that guy from a mile away by the way he moves and carries himself.
Professional fighters are the same way. A pro fighter doesn't get into bar room brawls. He's typically a pretty nice guy and has no desire whatsoever to hurt someone. But if the situation warrants it, he's going to do some damage in a skillful way.
A stable dog doesn't WANT to hurt someone. He may enjoy the training in the same way a fighter can enjoy sparring, but the ACTUAL fight is a different thing to him. The actual fight is stressful, he can get hurt if he loses so he does what he knows how to do to win it.
God I hope I didn't make that confusing, I apologize if I did.
Your post about the Sporting dog breeds really helped me to understand where you're coming from. I get it now, I hope.
I used to hunt Blackmouth Curs and they were a blast. I'll always have a special love for Labs and Retrievers just for how different they are from Sheps. If I don't get another Shepherd once I'm home, it'll likely be another Golden, just for the ease of ownership (other than burning up vacuums every three months trying to keep up with their shedding).
As far as the protection dogs "wanting" to bite someone, it's difficult to explain. I'll give it a shot and hope I'm not REALLY making things worse. Yes, we make protection work fun for the dog when they're learning. We use the dog's play/prey drive to teach them the game and make them want to play it. However, the dogs that are going to advance beyond dog-sport get taken into their defensive drives. At that point it's no longer a game. We stress the dog and put him into a "fight", then we let him win that fight.
To put that into human terms, most of us have had an incident where we were horse playing with a buddy, wrestling around or whatever and at some point someone got their feelings hurt and turned into a REAL fight. In the beginning it was all fun and games and no one was trying to hurt each other, our protective instincts weren't really switched on because there was no real danger to us and we were just having fun. At that moment when your buddy bit you, scratched you, punched you in the face, whatever, that protective instinct switched on and it quit being a game. You had to "switch on" and get serious or you were going to get your ass kicked.
Visualize the difference between martial arts sparring and MMA. They both involve people punching/kicking each other, but one is for fun or for score, and the other one typically involves actual aggression and the willingness to hurt the other guy.
Dog-sport is sparring, Protection work is in the Octagon.
If you've ever spent time around TRULY dangerous men, you've seen what we're talking about with a stable protection dog. The Tier 1 guys that are actual no-shit life-takers are the most laid back guys you'll ever meet. They're typically the first guy to pay a compliment to someone "beneath" them, they don't bully people or act like assholes. They're quiet professionals that have the CAPABILITY of inflicting great harm or death and because they KNOW that they possess that skill they're very quiet and confident. They don't need to display to anyone that they're tough, they just are. You can spot that guy from a mile away by the way he moves and carries himself.
Professional fighters are the same way. A pro fighter doesn't get into bar room brawls. He's typically a pretty nice guy and has no desire whatsoever to hurt someone. But if the situation warrants it, he's going to do some damage in a skillful way.
A stable dog doesn't WANT to hurt someone. He may enjoy the training in the same way a fighter can enjoy sparring, but the ACTUAL fight is a different thing to him. The actual fight is stressful, he can get hurt if he loses so he does what he knows how to do to win it.
God I hope I didn't make that confusing, I apologize if I did.
Yeah Chef,
Muzzle work is TOUGH on a decoy, that was a pretty easy hit at short distance from a Shepherd on unstable footing. Let a really fast dog with good traction get a 30-40yd head of steam built up and launch himself into you face first. The agitation muzzles feel like a brick being driven into you, and the good german basket muzzles have little rivets on them that get jagged so they cut the piss out of you. In that video the decoy was trying to escape the dog and the handler was holding the dog back some. Usually once the dog has knocked the decoy down he goes to work with his paws/claws and will sometimes head-butt you on the ground with the muzzle.
This past summer I was helping with a new group of teams and spent 6hrs a day, straight, alternating with one other guy catching about 30 dogs one after another in 120+ degree heat. Between us we were taking somewhere around 200 bites in a session plus another 100 bites or so doing some remedial stuff. We were doing that day after day. The whole time you're doing it, the NUMBER 1 priority is to not hurt the DOG, so that sometimes means you have to sacrifice your own body to ensure you don't damage the animal. All that without the ability to have a cold beer at the end of the day takes its toll.
The folks wanting a PPD have to retain a professional decoy to maintain their dogs and keep the dogs where they're supposed to be, there aren't that many professional decoys around for a reason
Muzzle work is TOUGH on a decoy, that was a pretty easy hit at short distance from a Shepherd on unstable footing. Let a really fast dog with good traction get a 30-40yd head of steam built up and launch himself into you face first. The agitation muzzles feel like a brick being driven into you, and the good german basket muzzles have little rivets on them that get jagged so they cut the piss out of you. In that video the decoy was trying to escape the dog and the handler was holding the dog back some. Usually once the dog has knocked the decoy down he goes to work with his paws/claws and will sometimes head-butt you on the ground with the muzzle.
This past summer I was helping with a new group of teams and spent 6hrs a day, straight, alternating with one other guy catching about 30 dogs one after another in 120+ degree heat. Between us we were taking somewhere around 200 bites in a session plus another 100 bites or so doing some remedial stuff. We were doing that day after day. The whole time you're doing it, the NUMBER 1 priority is to not hurt the DOG, so that sometimes means you have to sacrifice your own body to ensure you don't damage the animal. All that without the ability to have a cold beer at the end of the day takes its toll.
The folks wanting a PPD have to retain a professional decoy to maintain their dogs and keep the dogs where they're supposed to be, there aren't that many professional decoys around for a reason
If this video is accurate, I don't think a Caucasian mountain dog is the way to go. I hope these are just some idiots posing as experts, and this not an accurate representation of the breed .
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mMwRGVLuq1Y
Would the dogs be wearing a muzzle in an operational environment, or is it just a training aid to teach them to use their entire body in a fight? I was also wondering how badly the dogs injure people in a typical police encounter. Do they mangle the person and break bones, or do they just sort of hold the person with their mouth until officers get there. I've been bitten pretty hard by a lab, and it hurt like hell and tore my hand up!(of all dogs, I was bitten by a very cute lab. He was afraid, and as an 11yr old I didn't pick up on that when I went to pet him.) I can only imagine a shepherd or malinois could seriously damage a person
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mMwRGVLuq1Y
Would the dogs be wearing a muzzle in an operational environment, or is it just a training aid to teach them to use their entire body in a fight? I was also wondering how badly the dogs injure people in a typical police encounter. Do they mangle the person and break bones, or do they just sort of hold the person with their mouth until officers get there. I've been bitten pretty hard by a lab, and it hurt like hell and tore my hand up!(of all dogs, I was bitten by a very cute lab. He was afraid, and as an 11yr old I didn't pick up on that when I went to pet him.) I can only imagine a shepherd or malinois could seriously damage a person
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^^^^^^
Chef, that's about as clear of an example as you'll see of the wrong dog for the wrong person for the wrong reasons.
I had one of those things (the Afgh variant of it that they use for dog-fighting over here) come over a wall after my 55lb GSD (that was not officially "protection trained"). Before I could shoot the damn thing my dog went after it, and chased it back into it's compound. If mine hadn't been D-ringed onto me he would have gone over the wall after him. That's not to say my little guy would have won that fight, but the Caucasian, who'd been used as a "guard dog" and a fighting dog didn't have the heart when it got confronted BACK.
As for the injuries sustained from a real bite, YES, they can be pretty substantial to include broken bones and permanent nerve damage on the lesser side of the spectrum. In the extreme cases the injuries can be much worse, including death if the dog gets the throat. I just had a guy receive a "correction bite" from a dog (not his own) that went through 3 layers of winter clothing and resulted in a 3" long, 1/2" deep gash in the forearm that took 6 weeks of daily wound care, along with some really deep punctures. The dog wasn't mad and let go when he was told to, the handler did something wrong and the dog corrected him for it. No real aggression at all on that bite. Had that dog been mad, he could have easily broken the radius/ulna and caused permanent nerve damage.
A few years ago a handler that was just starting out with a dog decided he was going to "dominate" the dog and show him who was boss. The dog mauled his genitals, resulting in a number of partially-successful reconstructive surgeries.
In both of those cases guys that didn't have the rapport with the dog misread what they could get away with and got "corrected" by the smarter half of the team.
Chef, that's about as clear of an example as you'll see of the wrong dog for the wrong person for the wrong reasons.
I had one of those things (the Afgh variant of it that they use for dog-fighting over here) come over a wall after my 55lb GSD (that was not officially "protection trained"). Before I could shoot the damn thing my dog went after it, and chased it back into it's compound. If mine hadn't been D-ringed onto me he would have gone over the wall after him. That's not to say my little guy would have won that fight, but the Caucasian, who'd been used as a "guard dog" and a fighting dog didn't have the heart when it got confronted BACK.
As for the injuries sustained from a real bite, YES, they can be pretty substantial to include broken bones and permanent nerve damage on the lesser side of the spectrum. In the extreme cases the injuries can be much worse, including death if the dog gets the throat. I just had a guy receive a "correction bite" from a dog (not his own) that went through 3 layers of winter clothing and resulted in a 3" long, 1/2" deep gash in the forearm that took 6 weeks of daily wound care, along with some really deep punctures. The dog wasn't mad and let go when he was told to, the handler did something wrong and the dog corrected him for it. No real aggression at all on that bite. Had that dog been mad, he could have easily broken the radius/ulna and caused permanent nerve damage.
A few years ago a handler that was just starting out with a dog decided he was going to "dominate" the dog and show him who was boss. The dog mauled his genitals, resulting in a number of partially-successful reconstructive surgeries.
In both of those cases guys that didn't have the rapport with the dog misread what they could get away with and got "corrected" by the smarter half of the team.
as far as injuries, it can be as simple as a few puncture wounds, or a few stitches to broken bones and torn flesh. the dogs bite pressure is more than enough to break most bones in the arm, lower legs, feet, hands, facial bones and ribs. labs do bite alot statistically. most of them are from being poorly bred which gives them bad nerves. i have been bitten through bitesuits, albeit it's not nearly as bad it still hurts.
kenny
kenny
Guy,
well i think we just want people to understand about them as much as we can teach. knowledge we can offer, that hopefully will help any of you make a good decision. hording information doesn't help anyone. i have gained alot of knowledge and insight on the hide and just want to give back where i can help. i am passionate about the shepherd and feel that most people do not understand the dog, this is because of poor breeding, bad training, news and word of mouth.
kenny
well i think we just want people to understand about them as much as we can teach. knowledge we can offer, that hopefully will help any of you make a good decision. hording information doesn't help anyone. i have gained alot of knowledge and insight on the hide and just want to give back where i can help. i am passionate about the shepherd and feel that most people do not understand the dog, this is because of poor breeding, bad training, news and word of mouth.
kenny
Thanks Guy,
I'm kind of sorry that the thread ended up being sort of GSD-centric, that really wasn't my intention. It's just sad when you see someone with either the wrong dog or with the right dog they have no idea what to do with. Much earlier in this thread I think I commented on our personalities having a lot to do with what breeds we're most successful with. For a dual purpose dog my love is obviously with the Sheps. I've also had some amazing relationships with Labs and Retrievers. The GSDs were the over-achiever kids that you beamed at when you saw them, the Labs/retrievers were the goofy kids you just had to love for their good nature, different dynamic with each but I loved them all for what they were and didn't try to make them into something they weren't (although I did get to mess with a red lab I was convinced I could have turned into a solid bite dog )
I guess that's where I fall on some of the other breeds: you're STARTING with a dog that's pre-disposed to craziness (instability) and expecting that to change. It's like waiting for your crazy-assed girlfriend to settle down, if she was crazy when you met, odds are that it's not going to get any better.
The one breed of dog that I wish we could eradicate from this planet is the damn Yorkie. I've been bitten by more of those things than by the big dogs that I spend all my time with. Other than those little bastards and some of their equally miserable little cousins I can enjoy most breeds for what they are. If an actual dog bit that many people "Nighline" and "Dateline NBC" would be doing sensational stories about the most dangerous breed of dog in America. If there's a breed of dog genetically predisposed to attack humans, it's those unstable little shits.
I'm kind of sorry that the thread ended up being sort of GSD-centric, that really wasn't my intention. It's just sad when you see someone with either the wrong dog or with the right dog they have no idea what to do with. Much earlier in this thread I think I commented on our personalities having a lot to do with what breeds we're most successful with. For a dual purpose dog my love is obviously with the Sheps. I've also had some amazing relationships with Labs and Retrievers. The GSDs were the over-achiever kids that you beamed at when you saw them, the Labs/retrievers were the goofy kids you just had to love for their good nature, different dynamic with each but I loved them all for what they were and didn't try to make them into something they weren't (although I did get to mess with a red lab I was convinced I could have turned into a solid bite dog
)I guess that's where I fall on some of the other breeds: you're STARTING with a dog that's pre-disposed to craziness (instability) and expecting that to change. It's like waiting for your crazy-assed girlfriend to settle down, if she was crazy when you met, odds are that it's not going to get any better.
The one breed of dog that I wish we could eradicate from this planet is the damn Yorkie. I've been bitten by more of those things than by the big dogs that I spend all my time with. Other than those little bastards and some of their equally miserable little cousins I can enjoy most breeds for what they are. If an actual dog bit that many people "Nighline" and "Dateline NBC" would be doing sensational stories about the most dangerous breed of dog in America. If there's a breed of dog genetically predisposed to attack humans, it's those unstable little shits.
to ad to what bogey said about the caucasian, like many other breeds, i'm sure they didnot get good dogs to begin with. that being said i wouldn't own a gsd or other breed that acted that way. from what i see is the dogs are bred with very bad nerves, generally this is what triggers such a defensive drive. like bogey's dog, going after it and it running away. this is definately what you don't want or need. now on the other hand, the breeder socializing the dog will have a huge part to do with the grown dogs outcome. i can and do similar test on my puppies. what she is doing is worthless to tell which dog is going to be more aggressive, period. seemed to me the dog thought everything was a threat to include a passing car? not my cup of tea. i think this is the dog that knockemdown is thinking of.
just my thoughts
kenny
just my thoughts
kenny
I tend to "run the other way" when I hear a breeder saying that a breed requires "little to no training to be aggressive" or something along those lines. They're typically producing fear-biters and pulling from un-sound lines to ensure that overt aggression. The Caucasians are mostly used for "guard dogs" or sentry-type dogs over here where it's left to guard a compound or something. That video said the same thing about the Soviet Army using them as "guard dogs". When you teach a dog that it's okay to bite whatever it wants to, whenever it wants to as long as it's not you, you have PROBLEMS.
What killed me about that video was the owner making all the excuses for his dog being an asshole. "He thinks the car is a threat because it's near his property"???????? Come on!! How much enjoyment would there be in owning a dog that you can't even take for a walk, has NO respect for you, pulls you off your feet drags you all over the damn place, etc?
No thanks, but maybe Snake River will start offering the $150,000 version of that dog that will ride on the plane and find the Air Marshall for me, I'd buy two of them
What killed me about that video was the owner making all the excuses for his dog being an asshole. "He thinks the car is a threat because it's near his property"???????? Come on!! How much enjoyment would there be in owning a dog that you can't even take for a walk, has NO respect for you, pulls you off your feet drags you all over the damn place, etc?
No thanks, but maybe Snake River will start offering the $150,000 version of that dog that will ride on the plane and find the Air Marshall for me, I'd buy two of them
Most of the stuff on the much overhyped Ovcharka has been debunked already and thank you for that, guys. It just kills me when some guy sees a pic of a !BIG DOG! on the internets and then runs around recommending that as a breed for you to bring into your house with your family. If you don't know anything about a subject, BE QUIET. The Russians (not that their cops and military can hold a candle to ours) use GSDs. They do not use Ovcharkas nor the much ballyhooed Black Russian Terrier. They. Use. GSDs. That and the fact every other mainstream military and police unit use GSDs/Dutchies/Mals is what we call a "hint."
You can have a big dog of unknown quantity that isn't proven or you can have a nice balance of controlled aggression, protectiveness, athleticism, proven record in the field, and intelligence. You choose what you want to bring into your house.
You can have a big dog of unknown quantity that isn't proven or you can have a nice balance of controlled aggression, protectiveness, athleticism, proven record in the field, and intelligence. You choose what you want to bring into your house.
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I disagree from personal experience. With a good dog that has the proper instincts and nerve, it's not hard to get a protective dog that isn't a liability. On my third K9 breed family dog (GSD, Mal, and now a young GSD).
Got tons of pics like that. He was a great Mal. Got a 9 month GSD pup now who's just as close with the kids. Not as much bite drive as the Mal but not bad, either.
Mals CAN be great family dogs but I'm a GSD kinda guy. I'd take another Mal or even a Dutchie but I just spent money on a GSD pup.
It is amazing how well these dogs play dual roles. They're just as comfortable playing with the kids as they are attacking a bad guy. I REALLY, REALLY WISH I could have one!
Bought an 18 month old GSD in December. He wasn't cheap, but so far we're thrilled with him.
He is steady, willing to try anything I ask of him. Wherever the boys are outside he is and he's always watching.
The main reason we have him is to help with my 4year old who has autism. Right now we're training tracking in case Evan elopes.
We'll work on protection after that. I've trained border collies for livestock work in the past but this is a whole new game. He picks up so much more twice as fast and is really wanting to please.
He is steady, willing to try anything I ask of him. Wherever the boys are outside he is and he's always watching.
The main reason we have him is to help with my 4year old who has autism. Right now we're training tracking in case Evan elopes.
We'll work on protection after that. I've trained border collies for livestock work in the past but this is a whole new game. He picks up so much more twice as fast and is really wanting to please.
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