Provenance on Military sniper rifles and clones

[FjallJager]

I would think that the street value of a return M40 or MK-13 stock built by a former Crane or Quantico smith with the period correct or same source parts would be a some kind of markup. As the dude is just building what he was building when he worked at Crane or Quantico. I get some level of mark up and I think at some point it is kind of cool.

I have noticed that a variety of other builders (some former operators) claiming they developed a product.

Would you guys pay a premium for such provenance?

I am on the fence, I trade guns a lot and I think I'd rather have something built to shoot, than by some dude with a Quantico or Crane pedigree. If the thing shoots I don't care who made it? I would gladly buy a rifle built by a Quantico or Crane former gun mechanic if it shot, but?

I used to take a crap in the stall next to SOC dudes and my buns clenched on the same porcelain that the SOC dudes did every day. Should I have liberated that toilet seat and had it framed on my wall?

I spent 20 years in the Navy, about 8 of it in a 2nd Tier Frog-Support POG type position and the rest in Tailhook Navy.

Maybe I am not fan boy enough?

 

[FjallJager]

I also used to share an office with 2 Topgun graduates. Maybe I should have bottled some of that fart gas to market as genuine Tailhook offgas.

 

[Lowlight]

Usually, the difference is something being built to military spec vs something being built for accuracy and performance

If you look at the AJ Brown rifles, he worked at Crane and his stuff is used in the movies to make accurate recreations.

If you are buying a USMC M40 variant odds are it will get shot very little, they are collector pieces because they are marked correctly.

I would not be buying a Military rifle for use, they are collector pieces and not something to hold up for accuracy's sake.

I have two M40s, an A1 and A3, both are return stocks, both are sporting the correct markings, both have the correct scopes. I shouldn't be outside shooting them, why would I, there is nothing there my other rifles can't handle, in most cases better.

That A3 has a Jim Owen stock, it was only one of its kind in the return stock list and I jumped on it. The A1 is so old hell an RPR has more features, so again, why shoot something worth close to $10k when collecting it increases the value.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

The "benefit" of having it built by a crane or 2112 is that you get the exact detail done to the "legit" ones. There is a very rich history of specs, how things were marked, what procedure was done to get a result, etc that takes A LOT of research to get correctly. Some people like Raven Rifles meticulously research and document these things and when certain changes weere made and that it's usually what the premium is for. I could slap together an m40 and have it look correct but lack 90% of the details, will shoot the same but wont replicate a piece of history.

Issued return stocks and pieces command such a high value for the history that comes with it. Its no different than just about any other collectible piece if history...guitars, coins, papers, etc. Plenty out today that would do as good or better replacements but it doesn't have the story.

 

[FjallJager]

Gents I get it, I am not much of a collector of anything. I had not understood that aspect of it . Both of my coworkers collect Stuff I’d rather shoot it.

 

[FjallJager]

Thanks for your take on it. Did you know Rigby is selling copies of Jim Corbett’s tiger killing rifle?

 

[longshot2000]

We research this sort of thing and hire some of the people you mention to built, smith and assemble military sniper weapons. They are a breed unto themselves, and also aging. We did barrels with Boots Obermeyer until he stopped making barrels. At least Boots trained some of the todays commercial legends. Most of these folks have not done a good job of training the next generation of gunsmiths. I have the utmost respect for the smiths at Crane and Quanitco, as they had to make up stuff on the fly.

@lowlight , with all due respect for your knowledge and heritage, I would disagree with your asseeement that these pieces of history and art are not to be shot. I think that shooting them brings out history and genuiness with each shot.

Nothing to do with shooting, but I had collection of matches and beer coasters that my wife stumbled upon a number of years ago. Some of these "momentos" date back to the 1970s. If I had it my way, they would be locked away for "safekeeping" in the safe or somewhere, taken out every ten years and put away until I die, then some grandchild would find them and toss them away. Now, we use the coasters every day when needed, and matches are in big glass jar or sorts, and I use them to light up my Big Green Egg, or to have an occaisional cigar. I am enjoying each puff of that cigar, remembering the restaurant I visited 5 or 10 or 20 years ago. Living history collection.

 

[jbuck88]

Thanks for your take on it. Did you know Rigby is selling copies of Jim Corbett’s tiger killing rifle?

Rigby rifles are like that stupid pop song that gets stuck in your head.

I've been down the Rigby wormhole since yesterday.

 

[FjallJager]

I handled some at the Jagd and Hund show in Germany last year.

For what is about $7500-12,000 they are not as nice as spending the same money on a gun by Duane Wiebe, Todd Ramirez, D'arcy Echols or anyone else.

It isn't my bag, but is kind of interesting that they are doing it.

Rigby is a modern CNC made version of their old guns. The amount of handwork is very limited. They have a hell of a marketing department through (well because they are owned by Blaser).

 

[jbuck88]

A D'arcy Echols has been on my bucket list since I can remember.

 

[M1Army]

I have two replica rifles my XM21 Clone and my M40.

My XM21 is built to exact standards of the day and every piece is correct (except the commercial receiver). The stock is an orginal Springfield Armory Heavy Walnut stock stamped S.A. Under the butt plate and I used a finger painting technique to replicate a smear pattern that may have been improvised in the field. The XM21 (after I hunted down all the parts) was built by a former 2112

My M40 replica is built off one of the SSA receivers and has many correct and replica parts (worked with Raven) on the build. The stock is Taylor engineering an it came in unfinished Walnut which I did the final finish.

Both will only be replicas but they are close to the orginal and give me extreme joy to own. I have shot both and it was something to shoot them and have a just a little taste of what a sniper would have used back in 1966 and 1969. Having them built so nicely by two great builders was a plus! These are two of my favorites!

 

[FjallJager]

A D'arcy Echols has been on my bucket list since I can remember.

I handled one of his earlier rifles about 10 years ago. He is actually quite approachable. Spends some time of his day on www.accuratereloading.com in the gunsmithing forum. So does Wiebe, Stu Satterlee and quite a few other walnut type gunsmiths.

I'd like to have a 30-06 or 7x57 smithed by one Wiebe, Satterlee, Smithson, Echols, Ramirez or Joseph Smithson and have Smithson mounts on it.

My favorite stockmaker was Harry Lawson, my father had a Lawson stocked 1903 Springfield in 30-06 when I was a kid. Even as a child I could shoot it without discomfort.

Probably blasphemy to some, but I always thought that Lawson was an underated smith.

I am thinking about sending my 416 Remington M70 to Smithson for mounts.

 

[FjallJager]

I have two replica rifles my XM21 Clone and my M40.

My XM21 is built to exact standards of the day and every piece is correct (except the commercial receiver). The stock is an orginal Springfield Armory Heavy Walnut stock stamped S.A. Under the butt plate and I used a finger painting technique to replicate a smear pattern that may have been improvised in the field. The XM21 (after I hunted down all the parts) was built by a former 2112

My M40 replica is built off one of the SSA receivers and has many correct and replica parts (worked with Raven) on the build. The stock is Taylor engineering an it came in unfinished Walnut which I did the final finish.

Both will only be replicas but they are close to the orginal and give me extreme joy to own. I have shot both and it was something to shoot them and have a just a little taste of what a sniper would have used back in 1966 and 1969. Having them built so nicely by two great builders was a plus! These are two of my favorites!

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Nice rifles!