PRS

[pitspitr]

I've never been to a PRS match and likely won't be any time soon, but I have a question about the Know Your Limits stages. What are the "typical" target sizes and distances used. I realize that a lot of this is likely up to the match director, but I know you guys would have more of an idea than I do.

 

[Matches Malone]

I've never been to a PRS match and likely won't be any time soon, but I have a question about the Know Your Limits stages. What are the "typical" target sizes and distances used. I realize that a lot of this is likely up to the match director, but I know you guys would have more of an idea than I do.

1-2 moa target sizes.

 

[sachsmart]

Could be anything but to give you an example I shot a match this last weekend where we were to hit 2 KYL racks at appx 350yrds and 475yrds alternating near to far 1 round each large to small. The large target was like 3 MOA and the smallest was 1MOA

 

[pitspitr]

Thanks guys!
So from what I hear you saying is for a range with limited distance available a set of practice targets ranging in size for 1.5"-6" would be appropriate for use at approximately 150-200yds

 

[sachsmart]

Thanks guys!
So from what I hear you saying is for a range with limited distance available a set of practice targets ranging in size for 1.5"-6" would be appropriate for use at approximately 150-200yds

Yea.

 

[b6graham]

depending how many targets and distance...at least somewhat, i'd say 2.5-3moa down to 3/4 or 1/2moa is what I've seen and run as an MD

that goes for centerfire and rimfire

 

[LRDD]

This is the new,kinder,softer PRS. You don't shoot KYLs anymore, they are TYLs so people feelings don't get hurt.

 

[sachsmart]

This is the new,kinder,softer PRS. You don't shoot KYLs anymore, they are TYLs so people feelings don't get hurt.

I did shoot a real KYL last year. But few & far between now

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I did shoot a real KYL last year. But few & far between now

You’re not allowed to take any points away. If they did, it wasn’t supposed to happen.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

OP, if you’re looking for sizes for practice and such…..

Build a prs barricade and shoot 1” sticky @ 100yds. If you get to where you can build and break a position in 15s or less (under 10 is goal down the road), and hit 1”, you’ll be leaps and bounds better than most at a match.

Then you can move onto things like calling wind for more first round impacts.

 

[sachsmart]

You’re not allowed to take any points away. If they did, it wasn’t supposed to happen.

Too late now, lol. But it was engage the KYL Large to small two times and if you drop a shot the previous points are lost. The targets were pretty sporty. The last target was sub MOA and everyone was dropping it. I was shooting a factory RPR in 6.5 cm with factory Ammo, so I went down to the second smallest and ended the stage. Kept my 4 points.

 

[Birddog6424]

I had a TYL at my Pro Series Qualifier match this past weekend. Target sizes were 8", 6", 5", and 3" at 415yds.

It was a solid prone firing position 12 round stage. The shooter engaged the targets large to small/left to right, must hit to move on. Upon successfully engaging the smallest target the shooter would move back to the largest target and repeat.

There were 4 cleans out of 105 shooters, it averaged about a 7.

 

[Birddog6424]

This is the new,kinder,softer PRS. You don't shoot KYLs anymore, they are TYLs so people feelings don't get hurt.

Not sure if that's sarcasm.

It had nothing to do with anyone's hurt feelings. It was a broken scoring system. It's incredibly obvious it was broken and didn't even remotely belong in a 1 point per hit scoring system. It amazes me that people are still making an issue of its removal.

 

[MDof2]

Not sure if that's sarcasm.

It had nothing to do with anyone's hurt feelings. It was a broken scoring system. It's incredibly obvious it was broken and didn't even remotely belong in a 1 point per hit scoring system. It amazes me that people are still making an issue of its removal.

Curious what the debacle was on the KYL racks. Is there a less than 300 page flame thread on it?
This is the first I've heard of it, and yes, at times, I'm under a rock and don't pay attention to the scoring shit.

 

[Lowlight]

It wasn't broken, what a bunch of bullshit, and revisionist history, we had KYL from the very beginning, used be on paper down to a .25" target

It's a GAMBLE you LOST The POINTS ... making the stage a 0 is not a broken system

They bitched because they said you can't take earned points ... what a bunch of cucks, the KYL was enough to sway a match, so people cried... and cried, and cried some more as it made a difference in a race won by a point or two.

Hell I lost points in a match to Caylen when he shot his on paper and jumped up and yelled just as I touched off my last shot and missed, sorry no do-over, I gambled and lost

They sure love to lie and rewrite history

 

[kthomas]

KYL's are great as they require strategy and risk management. It's risk vs reward - something that makes sports very exciting, yet PRS avoids.

PRS needs to have more strategy and risk involved (not safety risks of course). I don't shoot PRS matches anymore because there's so little strategy involved, the stages have become so contrived and boring.

KYL would bring some of that excitement back.

 

[Birddog6424]

The PRS scoring system is 1 point per impact. It's not complicated.

Some pretty fun stuff was a casualty of that, I agree.

 

[MDof2]

So the issue wasn't "at the sound of the beep, shooter engages KYL with two shots per target, from Left to Right and moving positions after each target for a total of 10 rounds"

 

[Lowlight]

Why can't each plate be one point ...

That is stupid nobody says you have to do the addition version of the scoring where you add extra points for smaller targets.

The issue was, (I was in the Meeting at SHOT SHOW) Practiscore originally could not build the score in the software

But each plate is a separate target, 1 point per plate vs a miss at the end just wipes all points

They cried because it's separate plates and they didn't want to lose the point on a plate not missed, so you can't remove points from a previous plate was the argument

Pathetic is a word ...

 

[NewsShooter]

It wasn't broken, what a bunch of bullshit, and revisionist history, we had KYL from the very beginning, used be on paper down to a .25" target

It's a GAMBLE you LOST The POINTS ... making the stage a 0 is not a broken system

They bitched because they said you can't take earned points ... what a bunch of cucks, the KYL was enough to sway a match, so people cried... and cried, and cried some more as it made a difference in a race won by a point or two.

Hell I lost points in a match to Caylen when he shot his on paper and jumped up and yelled just as I touched off my last shot and missed, sorry no do-over, I gambled and lost

They sure love to lie and rewrite history

Yep, gamble and lose or stop and keep your points, it isn't a difficult concept. When I first started I showed up for a club match when I read online about it. I'd never shot past 200 yards, never shot off barricades under a time constraint. Brand new savage 6.5 and a vortex scope and computer dope. KYL at 550 yards, hit my first target and stopped, everyone kept telling me I had time to shoot, I looked up and said this was the first time I'd shot that far, I'm keeping my points. Accomplished all my goals, had fun, was safe and didn't finish last.

 

[Lowlight]

Rifles Only is where this started, Rifles Only conducted these types of Competitions around 1998, there are pictures on the wall with 10 people shooting, 15 people, etc. I started there in 2002/2003 and have worked competitions ever since...

Versus some spoiled Johnny cums lately who think all this started in 2012 with the PRS.

Why no handguns, cause at K&M someone shot themselves, we never had anyone shot and we hosted a heck of lot more matches at the time. What happens is these people are incompetent and or so weak-minded they have to do what the inmates want so they immediately cave to pressure. Can't manage a pistol safely, no handgun, can't score a KYL, make it a TYL.

Pathetic is a word

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

The PRS scoring system is 1 point per impact. It's not complicated.

Some pretty fun stuff was a casualty of that, I agree.

Your TL was eating everyone lunch. They are usually easy points assuming the wind doesn't switch direction every 5 seconds lol.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

This is the new,kinder,softer PRS. You don't shoot KYLs anymore, they are TYLs so people feelings don't get hurt.

I would venture to bet the scores are about the same, with the shooters being MUCH better than they ever were and the target packages being much smaller/harder with more movement and unstable shooting than in the past. The matches I shot 10 years ago were a joke compared to what you see today at a Pro Series match today.

 

[MDof2]

so I'm gathering it used to be something like shoot the rack large to small until you want to stop, and if you miss, you get zero. stop @ 3 get 3, shoot 4, miss, and you drop the prior points.

I kinda like it! Adds a little spice to it.

 

[Lowlight]

It's a gamble, some will give you extra shots so you can start over under time, but the concept was

KNOW YOUR LIMITS OF ACCURACY

Shoot plate - Hit = Options to Move on or Call Stop to collect points

Shoot plate - miss = Lose all points or in some cases start over while the clock is active.

If starting over, you have until time runs out, without missing, so many will hit the first two or three and stop, some might run out of time and only get one or none.

if they only give you 1 round per plate to start, you have to call it or hit everything, a miss is a 0 stage and that is what people hated, they hit 4 plates, gambled on the last and got a 0 after hitting 4, so they cried.

If you follow current rules of 1 point per hit, that is 5 plates, a 5 point stage it's not outside the limits, but they cried about missing the last plate and losing points for the first.

 

[kthomas]

It's a gamble, some will give you extra shots so you can start over under time, but the concept was

KNOW YOUR LIMITS OF ACCURACY

Shoot plate - Hit = Options to Move on or Call Stop to collect points

Shoot plate - miss = Lose all points or in some cases start over while the clock is active.

If starting over, you have until time runs out, without missing, so many will hit the first two or three and stop, some might run out of time and only get one or none.

if they only give you 1 round per plate to start, you have to call it or hit everything, a miss is a 0 stage and that is what people hated, they hit 4 plates, gambled on the last and got a 0 after hitting 4, so they cried.

If you follow current rules of 1 point per hit, that is 5 plates, a 5 point stage it's not outside the limits, but they cried about missing the last plate and losing points for the first.

PRS needs more stages where you have to use strategy to assess risk vs. reward.

It gets old in a hurry when every stage = shoot off of contrived prop with barricade bag. Barricade benchrest as I've heard you call it before, which is pretty apt.

One of the biggest misses of PRS is that it lacks any real strategy and risk vs reward elements, IMO.

 

[Lowlight]

The one change in KYL I liked was when you had a bank ...

You shot the KYL plate and to "BANK" the points, you had to transition to a different plate at a different range. The bank plate wasn't giving you any extra points it just sealed in your current points. So the bank plate was just a test.

You'd hit the KYL Rack, transition, BANK your points and then you can go back to the small plate, hit it, and then go bank the last point or two.

 

[ma smith]

so I'm gathering it used to be something like shoot the rack large to small until you want to stop, and if you miss, you get zero. stop @ 3 get 3, shoot 4, miss, and you drop the prior points.

I kinda like it! Adds a little spice to it.

I feel like back in the day a larger % of shooters .mil/leo, there was more operational purpose of 'knowing your limit'. The idea of 'penalty for missing' was a bit more par-for-the-course. Think like it was a hostage target, etc.

 

[MDof2]

I feel like back in the day a larger % of shooters .mil/leo, there was more operational purpose of 'knowing your limit'. The idea of 'penalty for missing' was a bit more par-for-the-course. Think like it was a hostage target, etc.

Like I said earlier, I like it. Unfortunate that people got butthurt over it. Choices have consequences.

I've asked/suggested several times for stages and matches that put more focus on decision-making, stage execution strategy, sequence of fire planning, etc. versus "here's a pile of tires/barricade/whatever shit in the field/build positions and shoot 1/2moa targets time starts now". Boring after the 3rd time around that same match.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

It's a gamble, some will give you extra shots so you can start over under time, but the concept was

KNOW YOUR LIMITS OF ACCURACY

Shoot plate - Hit = Options to Move on or Call Stop to collect points

Shoot plate - miss = Lose all points or in some cases start over while the clock is active.

If starting over, you have until time runs out, without missing, so many will hit the first two or three and stop, some might run out of time and only get one or none.

if they only give you 1 round per plate to start, you have to call it or hit everything, a miss is a 0 stage and that is what people hated, they hit 4 plates, gambled on the last and got a 0 after hitting 4, so they cried.

If you follow current rules of 1 point per hit, that is 5 plates, a 5 point stage it's not outside the limits, but they cried about missing the last plate and losing points for the first.

The problem is its not an accuracy issue. My match gun shoots sub 3/8 with my load and I tend to do well on the small target prone stages...really good infact (I just suck at everything else). I think I got a 7/12 out of that stage and felt lucky to get that many.

The issue is wind. Wind changes directions or dies or goes up, it doesn't matter how accurate you are. The TYL at Ja's match is a great example. IF you were lucky to shoot it with dead wind, it was an easy 10+ points. Most people were dealing with switchy winds all day and that stage was kicking the piss out of experienced pro shooters. Mirage was lying and wind flags right behind the target would show full value right to left, but you needed to hold of left edge to hit. Of the 4 who cleaned it, highest place was 9th overall.

If everyone had to shoot every stage under same conditions, I think it makes sense. The 1 hit one point makes much more sense when you can't ensure everyone gets the same shooting situation. An unlucky wind gust should not wipe out someones stage.

The other issue is RO's. Its hard enough to find competent RO's who can watch and score 1 plate while calling good hits. Making this even more complicated is going to piss off shooters and RO's.

 

[Lowlight]

You seriously did not say that ... the wind.

as I said, Pathetic

Everyone has a lame-ass excuse, but his wind is different, wow

Not every stage is meant to be cleaned, and funny Chris Way Shot the NRL Hunter as an RO, he shot on Friday, winds were 30MPH he held almost 2 MILS on a 389-yard target, he came in second, he never once made an excuse the rest of the field, NOT ROs got to shoot in 8 to 10MPH , vs 30MPH....

Fucking people suck balls

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I mean when the wind goes from a .5 left hold to a .7 right hold instantly, the flags and mirage not being reliable what are you supposed to do? Virtually everyone will miss that shot and there goes all your points. That was the point I was trying to make.

High , consistent winds are better than 6-10 mph winds changing direction every 30 seconds.

There is a reason guys who shoot a venue a bunch, will tend to squad up on certain stages knowing the longer shots in the morning usualy with less wind is going to give them a better hit %. We see it all the time at our local 1 days.

 

[Lowlight]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

The wind blows and changes, no kidding, wholly shit you stumbled on something

I mean, I used a fake name and all, but I used my Valkyrie to shoot a match with targets out to 1475, should I complain the wind is not fair to me... we gust too ...

My class last week had 4MPH to 24MPH gusts, the average wind on my range moves 6 MPH between lull and gust on a normal day ...

In fact i posted pictures

That is PART OF THE GAME

WTF

WIND

TARGET

FUNDAMENTALS

 

[Shoots 700's]

I thought the KYL rack was fun, risk/reward.

 

[Lowlight]

See everyone,

This is a NEON SIGN on how the PRS Guys will complain and get things changed, and trust me the inmates run the asylum.

A perfect example of where their head is at, it's NOT FAIR so change it to make it easier. Meanwhile they all chase the lastest and greatest windcheater caliber to fix their bullshit.

A .2 change, wow, really, it moved .2 from shot to shot, if I have a head wind on my range it changes full value from shot to shot, left side, right side, every single time, you have to look.

If you showed up to Rifles Only for a match and bitched about the variable winds coming off the Gulf of Mexico you would be laughed off the range.

Fuck Swaroski just replace most of my Spotter because the wind knocks it over all the time.


Listen to mike in the background we keep shooting in the wind

We had mover stages where you needed a Reverse Lead on some of the passes because, wait for it, the wind changed.

I repeat my charge again, Pathetic is a word

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

.5 left to .7 right would be a 1.2 mil wind shift.

On a 8" plate @ 415 that's a 18" shift.

Everyone has to deal with it. Point is to take away points from something out of shooters control is silly. Might as well shake a magic 8 ball and assign points based on reading.

 

[kthomas]

.5 left to .7 right would be a 1.2 mil wind shift.

On a 8" plate @ 415 that's a 18" shift.

Everyone has to deal with it. Point is to take away points from something out of shooters control is silly. Might as well shake a magic 8 ball and assign points based on reading.

That's the reality of shooting outdoors.

Wind can effect any stage design. For a KYL, understanding what the wind is (and isn't) doing is a part of the strategy and risk v. reward.

If you don't have the skills to shoot in the wind, then know your limits and stop shooting.

 

[Lowlight]

Big Fucking Deal

Happens every fucking day

It's Called the WIND

Again, Truly Pathetic

You don't understand shooting sports, at all

 

[Lowlight]

He should probably move back East and shoot the matches there where the wind won't hurt his feelings

Some people strive to master the wind, others, just fold.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

That's the reality of shooting outdoors.

Wind can effect any stage design. For a KYL, understanding what the wind is (and isn't) doing is a part of the strategy and risk v. reward.

If you don't have the skills to shoot in the wind, then know your limits and stop shooting.

Well it doesn't really matter because PRS/MDs/ shooters decided they don't want it anymore.

RTC didnt have any KYL stages, None of our Outlaw matches , NRL22/PRS22 didn't have any KYL stages. Seems to be most people don't want to shoot that anymore.

Its a gimmic, like the mulligans they just got rid of.

 

[Lowlight]

Maybe I will text Clint Sharp for a KYL Stage in the SHC

Maybe more than one variation with a series of gambles

But of course there are none, you all cried, like all of you, exactly how you demonstrated that here

 

[kthomas]

Well it doesn't really matter because PRS/MDs/ shooters decided they don't want it anymore.

RTC didnt have any KYL stages, None of our Outlaw matches , NRL22/PRS22 didn't have any KYL stages. Seems to be most people don't want to shoot that anymore.

Its a gimmic, like the mulligans they just got rid of.

Most stages these days are contrived gimmicks if we are being honest.

 

[LRDD]

When grown ass men zero the stage then go to the .match director and bitch and whine to get the stage thrown out, I think their feelings were hurt. We ran KYL forever without issue till people couldn't game it and started whining about it not being fair.

 

[roostercogburn98]

If it’s so unfair and hard, why do they keep showing up? Seems to me, just from reading all these threads, that people are fine with the game as long as they are winning. Oh lord, let them start losing and shit hits the fan.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

People want to have fun. Its not fun losing points and zeroing a stage becuase the wind changed. It was dumb.

Enough people didn't like it that it went away. Want to run them at your outlaw patch? Have fun.

 

[Lowlight]

How do you know it was the wind and not you fucking up your shitty trigger slap

Again, Major Pathetic

Bullshit excuses from lame people, the FUCKING WIND IS PART OF THE FUCKING GAME IF YOU FUCK UP THE WIND DO BETTER YOU STUPID FUCK

If the wind is beyond your ability to manage you shoot the first plate, which everyone hits and you stop Duh

 

[roostercogburn98]

Enough people didn't like it that it went away. Want to run them at your outlaw patch? Have fun.

You mean the right people didn’t like it, so it went away?

I challenge myself any time the thought catches me just right. I drag the 22 out and run it from 35-268 in the back yard. Wind or no wind, doesn’t matter to me.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

If I make a bad wind call and miss, I should lose a point.

If I make a bad wind call and miss, I shouldn't lose all my previous points and zero the stage.

I guarantee you the VAST majority of PRS shooters, want it like this. Rules don't change without a reason, be it saftey, insurance or shooter submitted.

There used to be mulligans at some matches in this region. Other regions not so much. So we voted as a region if we want them. It was close by the No's won it so that's how it works now. I think that is PRS wide now as well for both Pro series and regional/PRS22.

If people want something to bitch about, bitch about prop heights and how tall guys have an unfair advantage. I can't tell you how many points I lost for being short and unable to get in a stable position on my tip toes.

New rule should be every stage has to be proofed by someone 5" tall. Most of the MD's are over 6 foot and it shows with stage design.

No one is crying about bringing back KYLs. Heard more than a few bitching about prop heights.

 

[roostercogburn98]

New rule should be every stage has to be proofed by someone 5" tall. Most of the MD's are over 6 foot and it shows with stage design.

Maybe just all get together and sit by a campfire, just draw your points from a hat. Still be fair, cause you got what you got on your own. Don’t like your points, should have reached to the other side of the hat.

 

[Lowlight]

he's a crybaby why engage,

Waste of time with these guys, they want status quo, they want everything handed to them

Just like everything else, the cheating, the bullshit, the editing of scores inside Practiscore, it's all there.

They are a waste of energy and not worth the effort they want nothing new