PVA creedmoor and copper creek loads...help!

[Sixfivesavage]

Creed barreled action on a bighorn by Josh. Long story short, I have no time to load anymore and have copper creek load for me. I developed a load of 42.1 H4350 with a 140 eld-m through their development packs but didn't chronograph till I was done. Too high an ES for me and it's killing me at distance. Like 62 or something. Shoots one hole for 3 shots then will throw one sometimes two from the group at 100. Now I have the first MDSS match next weekend and just tried out copper creeks general 140 hybrid load and their 136 scenar L load. They shot same POI as my load but the hybrid was about the same ES and SD of 54 and 20 avg of 2752. The scenar was much better, 32 and 16 and 2775. Both shot one hole groups of 7, actually shot better than my ELD load. I'm liking the scenar numbers and love how it shoots, problem is, of 12 shots taken, I blew 2 primers. For some reason I seem to show pressure before most others do I've noticed. Now what I'm asking is for input from others with PVA chambered creeds and also what you think I should do for next Sunday. Think I should run with the lapua load and have them knock 2 tenths back to lower pressure or what?

 

[Dag34]

You don't seem to have enough time to refine your load so I would do something off the shelf that shot well. I have had decent luck with Prime ammo as well as some Hornady loadings.

The MDSS match will only be out to 600 yards so you should be able to get by on most targets, maybe drop one or two of the really tiny ones.

See you out there!

Oh, and I have to fix my load too....doh!

 

[djarecke]

Agreed. Try Prime ammo. It usually hammers.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

prime is a no go. tried that when it was new and it shot twice what factory hornady did. Sure is pretty ammo though!

 

[Dag34]

Well maybe Josh will jump in with a recommendation. Do you have another rifle, perhaps a 223/556?

 

[Sixfivesavage]

Yea, have a 223AI from RWS I've been forming brass in. Funny thing is I actually did better with that last weekend in all the wind than I did with the creed lol.

 

[L.R.Novice]

I have a PVA barrel in 6.5 CM for an AR. I use 140 ELD-M over 41.4 H4350 in Norma brass with BR-2 primers. I only tried up to 42.0 and never got more than slightly flattened primers and the faintest ejector marks. It was also shooting the factory Hornady 140 match loads very well. I seem to remember feeling the Hornady factory ammo was hotter than my 41.4 reloads. I don't remember exactly why.

 

[mm509]

Interesting.........did you use a reamer other than Josh's standard reamer? I ask because I have about 400-500 rounds on my 6.5 Creed from Josh, and the Prime works lights out for me. My velocity is 2889 avg (20 shots) SD 9-15 (Lot # dependent) and it is typically a maximum 3/8" gun. Heck, it was even good enough for a 3rd place finish at the Tactical Supply / Prime IROC match last weekend.


What brass are you using? I have loaded my TL-3 / PVA to some extremes.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

Nope, whatever Josh has is what was used. I installed it, maybe I have it torqued a tad tight and headspace is off, not sure what the deal is. He had suggested trying 41.5 H4350 with the ELD but I know without a doubt that will be too hot in this set up how it is. I get ejector swipe at my 41.1 load as it is. It hammers groups at 100 except for a pesky flyer I cant seem to get rid of and shows pressure very early for some reason. Just yesterday, the two blown primers torched my ejector for the second time now. First time was factory ELD that did it at a class.

 

[scudzuki]

Unless you are running some sort of barrel nut system, you aren't going to change headspace by over torquing your barrel.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

Yea I wouldn't think so either. Hopefully it's a carbon ring, we will see. It's soaking right now with carb out so time will tell. Josh is thinking that's what it is as well. It's only ever been shot suppressed and I don't clean often, so likely culprit I guess. It still shoots well though. Maybe that's what's causing the occasional flyer.

 

[bribassguy]

Here's some prospective... I am an average shooter... maybe better or worse depending on the day. I bought my first rifle about 2 years ago and last year shot the MDSS.

I also shoot a PVA 6.5cm and I have had good luck with factory 140 ELD-M. It's probably not as good as a hand load but with a 2 kids under 3 it doesn't leave a lot of time to reload.

I don't have the environmental conditions noted in Mini tab but here's the summary stats... figure a basic summer day.

Variable --- N --- Mean ----- StDev --- ES --- 95% CI
Speed ----- 19 --- 2748.5 --- 15.88 --- 48 --- (2741.19, 2755.87)

A SD of 18 puts ED around 60... 2780 to 2720. That a difference of 0.1 mil at 500 and 0.4 mil at 1000

If you had a single digit SD (9) your ED would be around 30... 2765 to 2735 0.1 mil at 500 and 0.4 mil at 1000

Based on Litiz WEZ program with all other factor held constant moving from a SD from 20 fps (68% hits) to 15 fps (72% hits) net you a 5% improvement in hit rate on a 2 MOA target at 1000 yards, less than 3% improvement from 15 fps to 10 fps (75% hits) , and then just a 1% from SD of 10 fps to 5 fps (76% hits).



Maybe it's a bad approach but most of the MDSS is bigger targets in awkward positions or under stress. For me at my level I can live with a 15 SD and spend my available time shooting and not at a reloading bench.

 

[jbailey]

if you are blowing primers, you are going to need to drop more than 2 tenths of grain to get into safe range. Be safe out there!

 

[lukejr985]

kind of funny that you posted this, I'm going through something similar. Josh made my barreled action, using his standard 6.5 reamer. 24inch barrel, shot hornady 140 eld very well, i shot copper creek hybrids through it for my last match at CORE and they did fine, but i still felt the hornady shot better. With that being said i started to reload for it initially with 140 RDF's which the gun didn't like very much at various powder charges and seating depths, moving on i bought some berger hybrids and loaded them using h4350 (42.2 grains) groups are decent, but my SD usually hovers between 15-20. 42.5 grains of 4350 gave me some pretty sticky bolt lift but no ejector marks.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

Here's some prospective... I am an average shooter... maybe better or worse depending on the day. I bought my first rifle about 2 years ago and last year shot the MDSS.

I also shoot a PVA 6.5cm and I have had good luck with factory 140 ELD-M. It's probably not as good as a hand load but with a 2 kids under 3 it doesn't leave a lot of time to reload.

I don't have the environmental conditions noted in Mini tab but here's the summary stats... figure a basic summer day.

Variable --- N --- Mean ----- StDev --- ES --- 95% CI
Speed ----- 19 --- 2748.5 --- 15.88 --- 48 --- (2741.19, 2755.87)

A SD of 18 puts ED around 60... 2780 to 2720. That a difference of 0.1 mil at 500 and 0.4 mil at 1000

If you had a single digit SD (9) your ED would be around 30... 2765 to 2735 0.1 mil at 500 and 0.4 mil at 1000

Based on Litiz WEZ program with all other factor held constant moving from a SD from 20 fps (68% hits) to 15 fps (72% hits) net you a 5% improvement in hit rate on a 2 MOA target at 1000 yards, less than 3% improvement from 15 fps to 10 fps (75% hits) , and then just a 1% from SD of 10 fps to 5 fps (76% hits).



Maybe it's a bad approach but most of the MDSS is bigger targets in awkward positions or under stress. For me at my level I can live with a 15 SD and spend my available time shooting and not at a reloading bench.

You're probably right. I tend to be one of those types that lay awake at night worrying about ES lol. I've never shot a match so I'm going into this not knowing what to expect. I do know I would prefer my numbers be at least in the 20 -30 range for ES. Not 60 some.
The more concerning thing to me has been ejector swipe at what seems to be a mild load. It's probably carbon after the cleaning I just did. I can hardly push a dry patch through the bore now where as before I could push a dry patch with minimal effort after I cleaned. I'm thinking it was the carbon allowing me to do it before and now that it's gone it's a lot less lubed. Gonna be zero tomorrow and call it good. I still have a few of the other loads left. Might try them and see if there is still pressure.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

kind of funny that you posted this, I'm going through something similar. Josh made my barreled action, using his standard 6.5 reamer. 24inch barrel, shot hornady 140 eld very well, i shot copper creek hybrids through it for my last match at CORE and they did fine, but i still felt the hornady shot better. With that being said i started to reload for it initially with 140 RDF's which the gun didn't like very much at various powder charges and seating depths, moving on i bought some berger hybrids and loaded them using h4350 (42.2 grains) groups are decent, but my SD usually hovers between 15-20. 42.5 grains of 4350 gave me some pretty sticky bolt lift but no ejector marks.

Shit, 42.5 would be blown primers for me the way it's been. The hybrids and ELD have been about the same for me as far as speed and group size as well as SD and ES. They were both high in that regard.

 

[lennyo3034]

I have Josh's barrel on my RPR that I will be shooting at the MDSS match. I installed the barrel at minimum headspace, it barely closes on a go gage. I use 41.8 grains of H4350 and 139 scenars. .025 jump. I have a high node at 43.3 but don't use it because there is no reason to. The last time I ran rounds through my magnetospeed I have an ES of 11 and SD of 4.

Something seems to be off, maybe I missed it but how much are you jumping the bullet?

fwiw, my barrel hates any and all factory ammo but I don't care because it hammers with handloads.

 

[lukejr985]

the carbon ring issue interests me i haven't heard about that before

 

[bkw1911]

Suppressed? Rainy? Perhaps the 143 x and not 140 m? Seating depth? Of four creeds, I've never had 140s show pressure signs till 42.5 or higher. I could see the 143 eld having pressure signs around 41.

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[Sixfivesavage]

Not sure what the jump is. Haven't taken the time to measure anything, just did cccc load development packs and went to work with what came of it. I'll have to check the coal they list on the order but I haven't measured to lands yet. It's supposed to be 140 as that's what I ordered and have no reason to believe it's not. Only shot 100% suppressed. Lots of shit came out of it with the car out yesterday. I'm betting that's what it was. Hope to find out today.

 

[ss7]

What chronograph are you using to get these values?

 

[Sixfivesavage]

Magnetospeed

 

[NewsShooter]

Most of my loads on my 6.5 CM have been about a full grain higher than that without any pressure signs on three different barrels. I've got Hornady brass that has been loaded 8 times and still has tight primer pockets. I'd check the headspace, possibly loaded into the lands?

 

[J McGriddle]

My SD at .010 jump was 23. Went to .005 jump and SD is 7. I'm fairly new to reloading but jump distance seems to have a significant impact.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

Used some patches, a nylon brush and patch wrapped around the nylon brush all with some carb out and that did the trick. Shot some today just to check pressure, confirm zero and check velocity again. ES is down to 40 even on 10 shots. I can live with that I suppose for being new brass and just having copper creek load it. Vast majority of my shooting is inside 800. Virtually all inside 1k. The MDSS matches are nothing further so I think I'll be OK. I'm sure I'll miss on my own and it won't be the ammo making me do it. I've never used carb out or a brush before, just patches with wipe out but I guess I need to pay more attention to carbon with shooting full time suppressed.

 

[jbailey]

Did your high pressure signs resolve themselves with the carbon cleaning? Blowing primers is no joke.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

Yup, all clear now with everything tested. I'm wondering now if I should explore a little higher charges since I'm still kind of high on ES and SD and my charge weight is almost a half grain under what everyone else seems to run. I'm betting that carbon ring was present to some extent while doing load development originally. I'm still averaging 2754 from this load out of a 24" barrel.

 

[lukejr985]

after reading this thread i hit the chamber and throat area a little with a brush, then cleaned up with a couple of patches, seems to have resolved my issues as well, after the match I'm shooting this weekend ill try to get in there with a couple of more aggressive solvents.

 

[lennyo3034]

Damnit, now you guys have me wondering if I should clean out mine. I got a weird .2 mil POI shift the last time I had it out. I assumed it was the scope (gen 2 razor, potentially the screws came loose)but now I'm second guessing.

 

[lukejr985]

i was having some weird bolt lift/closing stickiness and tightness with both reloads and factory ammo, once i cleaned up it a little it was alleviated.

 

[jonesturf]

It's easy to get wrapped up in all the numbers and little things that might gain you tenths of an inch on paper. In a match things are different. Mostly steel, plenty big. Know your rifle, pick a load and learn to trust it. It's 90% shooter. I too am running a PVA 6.5 CM. Shooting Prime at the moment. Will be at the MDSS match on Sunday. See you there.

 

[lennyo3034]

I caved and cleaned out the carbon ring. 3 days before the match. If I don't get a chance to verify accuracy, POI, and velocity I'll just shoot DMR instead. Will probably do better with it.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

For what it's worth, my point of impact did not change at all. Neither did my average velocity. The SD and ES got better by half and there are no more pressure signs.

 

[lennyo3034]

So I think my issues are a result of a new lot of powder. My velocity is a bit off as well.