Night Vision pvs-14 or d-760

[kylongshot]

i can only afford one piece, anyone ever have this debate? Is it that bad scanning with a riflescope???

 

[jdr724]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

How much time will you have to switch from holding the 14 or helmet mount to rifle mount then shoot and will taking your eye off the target in doing so cause you any problems?

How much magnification will the optics you plan to mate the 14 with have and is that enough compared to the d760 at 6x?

Is using it for navigation necessary?

Scanning can be much more comfortable if you're in a position that you can use something like the Primos shooting tripod or bipod. It's stable, quickly height adjustable and the rest swivels. This is the inexpensive route compared to a nice tripod paired with something like the HOG saddle.

These are just a few things that came to mind when I was thinking about my own situation that you may or may not have considered yet.

 

[IR-V]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kylongshot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... Is it that bad scanning with a riflescope??? </div></div>

It can be quite bad (on your arms), if you have to walk about a ways in the dark holding the scope up to your eye to see where you are going - but with the weight of the rifle hanging with it!

The more, additional tasks you have to perform in the dark besides aiming [your rifle], the more versatile and useful the PVS-14 (particularly on a head / helmet mount, keeping your hands free) will become to you.

With the PVS-14 head / helmet mount arrangement, you can still aim a rifle or handgun [in the dark] -- by using an IR laser aimer attached to the firearm [and aligned to the bore].

IR-V

 

[SkyPup]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

The D-760 will be excellent for making the shot once you are on your stand, but scanning with it mounted on a rifle will get old quick and it is dangerous to scan with a rifle.

If you do get the D-760, you will either need a PVS-14 or a FLIR PS-32 for scanning (you can use a flashlight to get to and from your stand).

You could also use a helmet mounted PVS-14 for scanning and then attach it to your day rifle scope if you can only have one NV optic. The addition of an IR laser later on would give you increased versatility.

 

[jdh4376]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

If you are not gonna do alot of shooting meaning 1 shot at one critter here or there I would go with the pvs .If your gonna shoot at pigs whole mags at the time I would go with scope.

 

[Asm1]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

jdh4376 your position is oposite of mine, but if it works for you how can I argue ? ..I have use clip on, night scopes and thermal weapons sights, there all cool and have there place,. Head count is my game and lasers is where I do my best work. I also talked myself into the scope game long time ago. And recently tried it again stalking hogs , it was a reminder for me .don't fix what works for you ! .Its hard for some to make tyere mind get into a laser over scopes ,I know first hand and deal with it daliy, But If you are trained how to best use IR lasers for hunting with head mounted night vision you will have more head count. But that could All depend how and where/what people are hunting . No one systems do it all Perfectly . But larg head counts Shure domake you think twice about changing anything.

Op if you are just wanting to sit in a stand and prop up your gun a scope works great, if you evolve past that you will need more gear .

 

[jdr724]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

I can't remember ever hearing from someone using your preferred method what they feel is the max effective range?

Would be nice to know since the head mounted takes away the concerns I have with caliber.

Thanks,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jdh4376 your position is oposite of mine, but if it works for you how can I argue ? ..I have use clip on, night scopes and thermal weapons sights, there all cool and have there place,. Head count is my game and lasers is where I do my best work. I also talked myself into the scope game long time ago. And recently tried it again stalking hogs , it was a reminder for me .don't fix what works for you ! .Its hard for some to make tyere mind get into a laser over scopes ,I know first hand and deal with it daliy, But If you are trained how to best use IR lasers for hunting with head mounted night vision you will have more head count. But that could All depend how and where/what people are hunting . No one systems do it all Perfectly . But larg head counts Shure domake you think twice about changing anything.

Op if you are just wanting to sit in a stand and prop up your gun a scope works great, if you evolve past that you will need more gear . </div></div>

 

[Asm1]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jdr724</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't remember ever hearing from someone using your preferred method what they feel is the max effective range?

Would be nice to know since the head mounted takes away the concerns I have with caliber.

Thanks,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jdh4376 your position is oposite of mine, but if it works for you how can I argue ? ..I have use clip on, night scopes and thermal weapons sights, there all cool and have there place,. Head count is my game and lasers is where I do my best work. I also talked myself into the scope game long time ago. And recently tried it again stalking hogs , it was a reminder for me .don't fix what works for you ! .Its hard for some to make tyere mind get into a laser over scopes ,I know first hand and deal with it daliy, But If you are trained how to best use IR lasers for hunting with head mounted night vision you will have more head count. But that could All depend how and where/what people are hunting . No one systems do it all Perfectly . But larg head counts Shure domake you think twice about changing anything.

Op if you are just wanting to sit in a stand and prop up your gun a scope works great, if you evolve past that you will need more gear . </div></div> </div></div>

I broke one hog down at 200-250 yards full run .I then ran it down and finished the job, it was. 556 shooting 55s, my kid would not share the black out like we planed. But he did well so I just let him roll with it

useing a black out 150 yards is doable on multiple runners ...But we stalked on top of the hogs close as we can before we open up. We killed the whole pack when everything went correctly.I hit 2-5 hogs regular 15-150 yards often with 556 some needing up to eight rounds to drop them in full stride, head shots DRT of course.. sonic black out killed 1-2 rounds and was a much better rounds

 

[jdr724]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

Thanks,

Once the corn is down here coyote shots can lengthen dramatically and stalking them isn't really an option. They are a bit smaller profile wise but usually 1 shot is plenty. The runners can sometimes be stopped after the first shot making for an easier shot on number 2 etc...

The guys I hunt with have 22's in front of acogs so I would like to see this in action first since I've got 2 thermals now.

 

[IR-V]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

I concur with ASM1, and the method he describes is taught to military and law enforcement personnel who are routinely required to engage in offensive maneuvers with firearms. It is a reason your average infantry troop is issued head-mounted night vision and PEQ-15/15A with much greater frequency than night vision scopes to be fixed to their rifles.

A key principle that is taught: is to constantly scan the environment, sweeping your head in an arc to maintain the broadest situational context possible. In the dark, the user with NV enhanced rifle scope is forced into more of a tunnel vision scenario. If the NV enhanced rifle scope magnification is low, the tunnel (FOV) is wider, but still nowhere near as wide, from a situational awareness perspective, as what one can gain with quick and constant scanning via head-mounted night vision.

Using lasers to aim in conjunction with head / helmet night vision is a rapid-acquisition method of shooting, that requires training and in many cases extensive re-learning for folks accustomed to acquire targets with rifle scopes. The most convenient (but NOT perfect) example for understanding the differences is to consider the disadvantages of using a fixed scope on a shotgun for skeet, trap, etc. While scopes put the aiming component in the same focal plane as the image of the target, a laser puts the aiming component *on* the target. The is no parallax error with a laser, and where "atmospheric" conditions will cause visible distortions, the view of the target remains coherent *with* the aiming element. In other words, a laser dot that appears on the target IS on the target. The rare exception could occur when aiming through relatively thick, transparent bodies of solid or liquid material with unusual refraction index between the shooter and target; but most of us are not usually in the business of shooting sharks and skin-divers.

Lasers that give a visible beam trace are very useful for compensating for the trajectories of different calibers of firearm that they may be affixed to. Once set or zeroed, unless shifted from the set position, the laser beam is a near constant. With practice accurately estimating distance and knowing (from practice) at which distance the bullet trajectory intersects with the beam, accurate holdover with the aiming dot can be quickly achieved. An interesting aside on the benefits of having a laser illuminator and in concentric alignment with your aiming laser, is that if you understand the cone of dispersion on the illuminator, you can use the size of the illumination window to help you estimate the distance of objects it is projected upon.

Head mounted night vision with thermal overlay is the best of all worlds, especially if the thermal component can project in outline mode. <span style="color: #000099">The very best thermal outline algorithms will put a heavier outline around the object emanating the most heat and which will automatically dim the outlines of nearby objects not in your direct, center, line of sight. </span> This really helps with target selection and acquisition. Furthermore, the thermal outline mode has the benefit of not interfering with the i^2 imaging, which presents more and better identifying detail *inside* the thermal outline of the target, including the location of the laser aiming dot. Projecting a laser aiming dot within the illuminated outline of a target is among the most intuitive, rapid methods for acquiring a target, especially when the targets and / or shooter are moving quickly, and when the shooter is under stress.

<span style="color: #000099">For readers who are able to code into the BIOS of your thermal imaging devices, what I have highlighted in blue above are the kind of functions you can consider to program / develop. </span> We've developed code for these at the request of various law enforcement and military customers. Furthermore, with fusion imaging, enabling bullet trace (thermally) in conjuction with IR laser aimer beam trace creates a living, ballistic trajectory "graph" that is truly remarkable to observe from the perspective of team members away from the shooter. The SENVG video overlay capability that I wrote about several months ago, is what I've had my department develop so that what other team members see from their SENVG scopes can be transmitted to any shooter's SENVG scope in a PIP (picture in picture) format -- and simulataneously viewed from a command center.

Can you tell I love my work ... LOL

IR-V

 

[Asm1]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

Yes I can tell you love it and you are good at it !

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IR-V</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I concur with ASM1, and the method he describes is taught to military and law enforcement personnel who are routinely required to engage in offensive maneuvers with firearms. It is a reason your average infantry troop is issued head-mounted night vision and PEQ-15/15A with much greater frequency than night vision scopes to be fixed to their rifles.

A key principle that is taught: is to constantly scan the environment, sweeping your head in an arc to maintain the broadest situational context possible. In the dark, the user with NV enhanced rifle scope is forced into more of a tunnel vision scenario. If the NV enhanced rifle scope magnification is low, the tunnel (FOV) is wider, but still nowhere near as wide, from a situational awareness perspective, as what one can gain with quick and constant scanning via head-mounted night vision.

Using lasers to aim in conjunction with head / helmet night vision is a rapid-acquisition method of shooting, that requires training and in many cases extensive re-learning for folks accustomed to acquire targets with rifle scopes. The most convenient (but NOT perfect) example for understanding the differences is to consider the disadvantages of using a fixed scope on a shotgun for skeet, trap, etc. While scopes put the aiming component in the same focal plane as the image of the target, a laser puts the aiming component *on* the target. The is no parallax error with a laser, and where "atmospheric" conditions will cause visible distortions, the view of the target remains coherent *with* the aiming element. In other words, a laser dot that appears on the target IS on the target. The rare exception could occur when aiming through relatively thick, transparent bodies of solid or liquid material with unusual refraction index between the shooter and target; but most of us are not usually in the business of shooting sharks and skin-divers.

Lasers that give a visible beam trace are very useful for compensating for the trajectories of different calibers of firearm that they may be affixed to. Once set or zeroed, unless shifted from the set position, the laser beam is a near constant. With practice accurately estimating distance and knowing (from practice) at which distance the bullet trajectory intersects with the beam, accurate holdover with the aiming dot can be quickly achieved. An interesting aside on the benefits of having a laser illuminator and in concentric alignment with your aiming laser, is that if you understand the cone of dispersion on the illuminator, you can use the size of the illumination window to help you estimate the distance of objects it is projected upon.

Head mounted night vision with thermal overlay is the best of all worlds, especially if the thermal component can project in outline mode. <span style="color: #000099">The very best thermal outline algorithms will put a heavier outline around the object emanating the most heat and which will automatically dim the outlines of nearby objects not in your direct, center, line of sight. </span> This really helps with target selection and acquisition. Furthermore, the thermal outline mode has the benefit of not interfering with the i^2 imaging, which presents more and better identifying detail *inside* the thermal outline of the target, including the location of the laser aiming dot. Projecting a laser aiming dot within the illuminated outline of a target is among the most intuitive, rapid methods for acquiring a target, especially when the targets and / or shooter are moving quickly, and when the shooter is under stress.

<span style="color: #000099">For readers who are able to code into the BIOS of your thermal imaging devices, what I have highlighted in blue above are the kind of functions you can consider to program / develop. </span> We've developed code for these at the request of various law enforcement and military customers. Furthermore, with fusion imaging, enabling bullet trace (thermally) in conjuction with IR laser aimer beam trace creates a living, ballistic trajectory "graph" that is truly remarkable to observe from the perspective of team members away from the shooter. The SENVG video overlay capability that I wrote about several months ago, is what I've had my department develop so that what other team members see from their SENVG scopes can be transmitted to any shooter's SENVG scope in a PIP (picture in picture) format -- and simulataneously viewed from a command center.

Can you tell I love my work ... LOL

IR-V
</div></div>

 

[Phantom223]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

I have to agree with the post above after many years of buying and using NV I perfer a helmet and laser now 90% of the time. It's simple, it works, its like a heads-up shooting display. I can use/carry one NV system for navigating terrain,scanning for targets,and placing shots on targets. A scope is great for longer ranger shooting or when MOA accuracy is needed that said I can snap on the 3X mil lens in seconds and hit a coyote 150-200 yards in the shoulder area no issue. The thing I really like about the 760 is the 6X power really zooms on distant targets giving you alot of clarity at longer ranges. Nothing is perfect for everything each system has it place but if you only have on NV system something like the PVS-14 is the way to go. Buy a IR laser,helmet setup,IR Illum, 3X lens that covers most needs.

 

[Disasterpath]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

Another vote for helmet and laser. I have a D760 and it just plain sucks for scanning. A D740 would be a bit better. I love the D760 if you are targeting a specific area all night though. If you are mobile, the PVS-14 and a laser is the only way in my opinion. The D760 is also a ton of fun for simple recreational target shooting.

 

[IR-V]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes I can tell you love it and you are good at it !

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IR-V</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you tell I love my work ... LOL

IR-V
</div></div> </div></div>
Thanks, ASM1. Your term: "Head Count" really hit the nail on the head!

IR-V

 

[Asm1]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

Thanks IR-V ! I am not of man of many words, but if a couple jumps out at you I am honerd ! I think you are one of the smartest persons I know

I use this term " one looses to much information when weapons mounted" constant Scanning is the words you used and this is what I do,but your educated proper English is mo better

.

 

[IR-V]

Re: pvs-14 or d-760

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks IR-V ! I am not of man of many words, but if a couple jumps out at you I am honerd ! I think you are one of the smartest persons I know

I use this term " one looses to much information when weapons mounted" constant Scanning is the words you used and this is what I do,but your educated proper English is mo better

. </div></div>

ASM1, I thank YOU for all your kind words. You are a man for all seasons. Frankie for the <span style="text-decoration: underline">hunt</span> AND for the <span style="text-decoration: underline">kill</span>! ;-)

IR-V