Night Vision PVS14 and breach

[ST42]

All,
I’m torn between BNVD’s and running the MA D14 with a signal 14 and the Breach. Hunting application, coyotes and predators, and either choice in WP. Hunting out west in high desert and semi mountainous terrain. If you have experience with both systems, can you share your thoughts / experience, and why you chose what you decided on?
I’m about to place an order, and for the life of me, I cannot make up my mind.

Thank you,
ST42

 

[wigwamitus]

For open terrain, I doubt you will be very happy with the breach. its a decent detector out a little ways ... like I can detect my cattle at 400yds. But for open terrain I would consider 14 plus Patrol in a dual band setup ... the patrol can detect cattle at 1800yds on most nights ... and with a 3xG magnifier, you can open that up to 5,300yds ...

 

[TheGerman]

Stay away from FLIR and the Breach.

That thing was such a shitshow of underwhelming disappointment.

 

[ST42]

Thanks for the reply. Which model of the Patrol are you using? No issues with head mounting?

 

[WhereNow&How]

All,
I’m torn between BNVD’s and running the MA D14 with a signal 14 and the Breach. Hunting application, coyotes and predators, and either choice in WP. Hunting out west in high desert and semi mountainous terrain. If you have experience with both systems, can you share your thoughts / experience, and why you chose what you decided on?
I’m about to place an order, and for the life of me, I cannot make up my mind.

Thank you,
ST42

IMHO a dedicated Bino is pretty much a 1 Trick Pony. Why limit your abilities. There are so many advantages to going with the Mod Armory D14 or Light Weight Bridge over a dedicated Bino that it is not even funny.

1. Can Run NV & Thermal head mounted.

2. Can Run Dual Night Vision (2 14's) so you have Bino System

3. Can run a simple single for light weight easily concealed/packed system on Nightcap. (Think Bug Out Bag or Get Home Bag)

4. Can split your "Bino" system so a buddy etc can have one of the PVS 14's

5. Redundancy in independent power systems. With dedicated Bino's if you have a power issue, usually you loose both tubes down. That is almost impossible to occur with 2 PVS 14s

6. Have a hard face plant with dedicated Bino's and booger up just one side and the whole unit has to ship off for repair which is usually expensive. If you do same with a set of Bridged 14's just roll another (spare) 14 in and keep rockin or just send off the boogered unit for repair while you continue on with one.

7. With Bridged 14's you have 2 onboard emergency Illuminators, vs just 1 with (some) dedicated Bino's.

8. Usually much cheaper to get 2 PVS 14's and bridge them than buying a dedicated Bino.

9. 2 Bridged PVS 14's on a Mod Armory Bridge is usually stronger than most dedicated Bino's.

10. Independent manual Gain control for each tube. This can become extremely important if you ever run a Pas 29 COTI system on a dual set of NV.
Point being, it can be extremely advantageous to lower the Gain on the unit that does not have the COTI attached to it. This provides a much better fused image and also allows one of your eyes to maintain its natural night vision so you can monitor the ambient light situation.

11. Can take one of your 14's off and hook you IPhone up to it and use to take night pics while you still move around with the other one as a single.

I probably have forgotten to list a few other advantages.

There is only 1 Disadvantage against some (not all) dedicated Bino system and that is some minimal additional weight.

To me the Bridged 14 system or Bridged 14 & Breach advantages far outweigh the 1 slight negative. YMMV.

 

[ST42]

WNH,
Your points are exactly why I am considering the 14/Breach combo. Have you run the Breach?

 

[WhereNow&How]

Stay away from FLIR and the Breach.

That thing was such a shitshow of underwhelming disappointment.

Well it is not necessarily the top of the line, but for the cost to benefit ratio I beg to differ that it is a shitshow.

I is a pretty good little light weight detector but is not good at PID.

Pretty much all light weight head mountable Thermals are running at 1X magnification. So even a 640 BAE cored device digitally 2x will be at 320 x 240 and only will get you so far out for PID.

I use much better tools to get PID on critters at distance, so all I need a head mounted Thermal to do is detect something is out there.

Tell me what you think is the better or best head mountable Thermal and what kind of PID distances can it really do.

 

[WhereNow&How]

WNH,
Your points are exactly why I am considering the 14/Breach combo. Have you run the Breach?

Yeah, I own 3 of them. Here is pic of them on all 3 Versions of Bridges that Mod Armory has made. I am also likely to buy some more at some point in time.

Left To Right: Mod Armory Quick Disconnect Bridge, Mod Armory Light Weight Bridge Version 1, Mod Armory Light Weight Version 2

 

[ST42]

Thank you. I am continue with my plan, d14, PVS14 in WP, and for now undecided on the Thermal.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@ST42 Wig is correct in his assessment that the Patrol is a much better longer distance detector, but it comes with a much higher price and weight.

If you need a long range detector it would be one of the best viable cost to benefit units I think. For my part of the world down here in Mississippi, the Breach fills the role I am looking for.

 

[wigwamitus]

... That thing was such a shitshow ...

The German always speaks with more eloquence than I ...

==

... Which model of the Patrol are you using? No issues with head mounting? ...

The patrol model is M300W

No issue with head mounting for me ... here is patrol with radius mounted underneath and 3xg magnifier clamp on front. I carry 3xg in pouch when on the move, but then can screw in front of clamp when stationary to provide long distance thermal range finder capability.

The trick to head mounting, is to adjust your Mod Armory IC bridge to the forward most position ...

Via the set screw and two holes located in the center of the bridge shown above.

 

[MarinePMI]

I thought FLIR wasn't supporting civilian stuff anymore(?)....

 

[wigwamitus]

... I thought FLIR wasn't supporting civilian stuff anymore(?)....

There were a tiny few exceptions (basically stuff with no reticle) and the breach was one.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Wig, that is an absolute 1st. Radius head mounted to a head mounted Patrol. History in the making.

 

[TheGerman]

Well it is not necessarily the top of the line, but for the cost to benefit ratio I beg to differ that it is a shitshow.

I is a pretty good little light weight detector but is not good at PID.

Pretty much all light weight head mountable Thermals are running at 1X magnification. So even a 640 BAE cored device digitally 2x will be at 320 x 240 and only will get you so far out for PID.

I use much better tools to get PID on critters at distance, so all I need a head mounted Thermal to do is detect something is out there.

Tell me what you think is the better or best head mountable Thermal and what kind of PID distances can it really do.

For the price range and OPs use, hands down the MTM/PAS23.

Not the best anymore but for what he's looking for, I wouldnt hesitate on the MTM that can be found in the secondary market.

The Breach is so underhelming, with so much feature creep from what was promised and actually advertised to what was delivered I can't see how they can even call it the same thing. It was supposed to be an affordable feature rich unit which turned out to be 'you get what you pay for', if even that. The combloc housing thats used in regards to mounting it next to a PVS14 is a fucking travesty with crooked, out of spec rails, and rails placed on the body at the weirdest points making adjustment/alignment of the unit extremely limited.

I think some of the shortcomings with the rail setup may be addressed in some of the mounts/bridges posted above. When I first had one, I had the RQE bridge and it was an exercise in not hitting it with a fucking baseball bat.

Performance is underwhelming and thats being nice. The constant stutter/refresh flicker is obnoxious and seemed to be more and more common when moving with the unit over terrain. The color overlays are useless. The rails/mounting option the unit gives you sucks. Basically have nothing positive to say about it other than I'm glad I was able to sell it quickly for what I paid for it. Just google 'flir breach disappointed'; theres a reason these went from being posted in a bunch of bullshit 'oh hey guys look at this awesome new stuff thats coming out' posts to basically not being talked about.

I think the best review I read about it summed it up with 'this does nothing better than the old Q14 unit except bring a higher profit margin'.

 

[WhereNow&How]

So Flir done took the Cross-Hairs from the people. Maybe they gonna help ship some folks off to Fema Camps in the near future.


"Chris Bainter, director of global business development at FLIR Systems, told CBS News' Jericka Duncan. FLIR has been producing thermal imaging cameras since the SARS epidemic in 2003, when it gained widespread use in Asia. "

Thermal imaging cameras could play "critical role" in keeping people safe from COVID-19

"What we're seeing is there will be a new normal that will involve thermal screening as a frontline tool," Chris Bainter, director of global business development at FLIR Systems, said.

www.cbsnews.com

Companies’ use of thermal cameras to monitor the health of workers and customers worries civil libertarians

"FLIR Systems, the Oregon-based hardware firm that makes most of the world's thermal cameras, has seen its stock soar 60 percent over the last month amid reports of increased demand."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/04/27/companies-use-thermal-cameras-speed-return-work-sparks-worries-about-civil-liberties/

 

[wigwamitus]

For me, the breach is not worthless ...

As a detector ... then I can check out any hot object detected with something more powerful, like UTC on the rifle as shown. And the breach is tiny and light beside the 14 on the helmet.

==
But I have not learned to trust the breach to see things I would expect it to see.

One night the breach could not see a deer at 150yds ... well it could for about 1m, then for the next 15m it could not. The deer had gone behind a group of sapplings ... the deer was still totally visible with the UTC above, but the breach saw nothing. Now a deer at 150yds is a pretty large target in my book and I would expect the breach to see it. At that point, the breach was still having factory setting on gain. Since then, I've dialed up the gain to 250. Maybe it could see that deer now ?

On another night there was a coon in the woodshed, the breach missed it ... but the UTC saw it and I got the coon.

I took the breach out to the field one night .. it could not see the terrain and the conditions were not terrible ... it could see 12 inch heated steel at 500yds ... a bright orange dot in a sea of blue (I am trying hard to use "arctic" per WN&H recommendation).

So if the breach can see 12 in heated steel at 500yds then it could see a deer at 500yds ... or a primate ... provided those critters are in the open ... if they are in the woods with some intervening vegetation, then maybe the breach cannot see them, whereas the BAE cored thermals can.

So need to learn the limitations of the breach and what it can do and what it cannot do. And that's still a work in process for me.

But at least at this point, if I am doing anything serious, I would want the patrol or skeet up there on my head. Check back in six months .. I should have it figured out by then !!

==
Now the skeet on the helmet is a solid alternative to the patrol ...

The x model is half the weight and half the size ... but double the price of the patrol ... they both use the BAE core ... with the patrol using a 12 pitch and the skeet-x a 17 pitch. My skeet is the 320 model with a 25 pitch core. I'd say it has about 90% of the clarity of the patrol, which is amazing (same difference I see between the UTC (25) and the UTC-x (17).
The skeet has azimuth in heads up display (so does the breach, the patrol does not) which I find very useful for indexing critter groups. I use the azimuth in all my BAE devices every night, extremely useful. Like if I see a coon at 12 degrees 300yds approaching, I can note that azimuth and go back to watching the coon at 97 degrees at 75yds ... and switch back and forth between them, because I know the azimuth of the last sighting. That has enabled me to get coon doubles several nights (including last night). Very useful feature.

==

 

[wigwamitus]

...
hands down the MTM/PAS23.

I've looked thru a 23 ... and of course my very similar skeet-L ... but I have not looked thru them side by side in same conditions ... so I can't accurately compare them. But for the typical street price of the 23 ... I agree ... they are essentially equivalent to the skeet-L.

My only concern with the 23 is side by side dual band mounting. With the skeet-l that's a done deal out of the box ... has the same dove tail as the patrol.

I know solo mounts are available for the 23, but have you ( @TheGerman) worked out a dual mount solution for the 23 ???

 

[MarinePMI]

The azimuth data is used for other purposes as well.

 

[ST42]

Thank you all gents! While I do have the means for the BNVD’s or dual 14’s in WP, not sure I can swing a Skeet.... But I sure would love too. Head mounted Radius....... Friggin crazy awesomenes!

 

[TheGerman]

I've looked thru a 23 ... and of course my very similar skeet-L ... but I have not looked thru them side by side in same conditions ... so I can't accurately compare them. But for the typical street price of the 23 ... I agree ... they are essentially equivalent to the skeet-L.

My only concern with the 23 is side by side dual band mounting. With the skeet-l that's a done deal out of the box ... has the same dove tail as the patrol.

I know solo mounts are available for the 23, but have you ( @TheGerman) worked out a dual mount solution for the 23 ???

I have a Wilcox (I think?) dovetail on it. Slides right into the RQE bridge. When I wear the helmet with the bridge, PVS14 over my left non dominant eye, thermal on the right, usually flipped out of the way. When wearing the ANVIS9, I have the MTM in a GP pouch. I'm slowly getting to the point that if I really want to find something, PID as well as actual GPS location and tracking it I'll send up a thermal drone lol

I'm not 1000% sure if there is a screw/non screw version of the MTM that can accept the dovetail as I somehow remember seeing some that didn't have it, but can't remember if thats true or not. If thats the case, mine obviously has it.

 

[wigwamitus]

... 'this does nothing better than the old Q14 ...

I had a Q-14 for about 2.5 years ... I evolved to primarily running in on my .22LR ratter ... it was actually GREAT in that role and I miss it in that role. I had an ATN ODIN (Gen 1) for about 3.5 years (just sold it to a buddy who begged - about 2 months ago). It was actually better ... and better than the breach also. It was fixed focus, but more like the Trijicon/N-Vision thermals, fixed focus at infinity ... I PID'd a yote at 500yds one night with the yote moving and me rolling on the 4 wheeler. Not saying I could do that every time, but it did happen once ... the movement of the yote was a key.
The ODIN stomped the Q-14 in the head mounted dual band use case. And my q-14 was a 640(30) whereas the ODIN was a 320(30).
But both of those are arcane relics these days ... and tough to find ... and impossible to get fixed ...

 

[wigwamitus]

...
I have a Wilcox (I think?) dovetail on it. Slides right into the RQE bridge. When I wear the helmet with the bridge, PVS14 over my left non dominant eye, thermal on the right, usually flipped out of the way. When wearing the ANVIS9, I have the MTM in a GP pouch. I'm slowly getting to the point that if I really want to find something, PID as well as actual GPS location and tracking it I'll send up a thermal drone lol

I'm not 1000% sure if there is a screw/non screw version of the MTM that can accept the dovetail as I somehow remember seeing some that didn't have it, but can't remember if thats true or not. If thats the case, mine obviously has it.

Ah, good data, thanks !!!


==

...
I'll send up a thermal drone lol

Are you packing that thermal drone while moving on foot ... and deploying it into the air from your pack in under x-minutes at night ?? If so, you've got your kit nailed down !!!

 

[WhereNow&How]

For the price range and OPs use, hands down the MTM/PAS23.

Not the best anymore but for what he's looking for, I wouldnt hesitate on the MTM that can be found in the secondary market.

The Breach is so underhelming, with so much feature creep from what was promised and actually advertised to what was delivered I can't see how they can even call it the same thing. It was supposed to be an affordable feature rich unit which turned out to be 'you get what you pay for', if even that. The combloc housing thats used in regards to mounting it next to a PVS14 is a fucking travesty with crooked, out of spec rails, and rails placed on the body at the weirdest points making adjustment/alignment of the unit extremely limited.

I think some of the shortcomings with the rail setup may be addressed in some of the mounts/bridges posted above. When I first had one, I had the RQE bridge and it was an exercise in not hitting it with a fucking baseball bat.

Performance is underwhelming and thats being nice. The constant stutter/refresh flicker is obnoxious and seemed to be more and more common when moving with the unit over terrain. The color overlays are useless. The rails/mounting option the unit gives you sucks. Basically have nothing positive to say about it other than I'm glad I was able to sell it quickly for what I paid for it. Just google 'flir breach disappointed'.

I think the best review I read about it summed it up with 'this does nothing better than the old Q14 unit except bring a higher profit margin'.

Yep, I would say the MTM would be better and your general assessment is pretty spot on.

Luckily, I don't have to ask a whole lot out of the Breach because I am in pretty heavily wooded terrain with mixed fields from time to time. Flir has sold about 40,000 or more now per my recent serial number data I have received. I do like the Mod Armory Battery extender which allows me to run the 16650s.

I also do like the fact that I can put one in a pocket and get around at night in an every day carry type situation and have some decent thermal ability. It is also a easy unit to put in the hands of a pretty inexperienced person and it has a low price point at say around $2,000.

So while not high performance it definitely has a place for me.

At first I didn't like it, but it just seemed to grow on me the more I used it. Then I bought more.

One of the really important things to get it to stretch on out there for detection is to turn the Gain way up from its normal settings, especially in bad thermal conditions.

 

[TheGerman]

The azimuth data is used for other purposes as well.

It's the only thing I'm missing onboard anything short of my PLRF15c. At night I always have used my wrist mounted Garmin thats bailed me out of trouble so many times that you'd have to fight me for it.

 

[MarinePMI]

It's the only thing I'm missing onboard anything short of my PLRF15c. At night I always have used my wrist mounted Garmin thats bailed me out of trouble so many times that you'd have to fight me for it.

Yeah, I'm by no means an NV/Thermal expert, but I do get to occasionally see and play with the R&D stuff made at BAE. There's some pretty neat stuff on the horizon with regards to data fusion in NV/Thermal gear (just don't ask to me to explain or know all the details; I'm just a dog watching TV when it comes to this stuff)...

 

[TheGerman]

Ah, good data, thanks !!!


==



Are you packing that thermal drone while moving on foot ... and deploying it into the air from your pack in under x-minutes at night ?? If so, you've got your kit nailed down !!!

They're small now. Hell I remember when they were the size of a kids Barbie car.

The drone is a new thing for me, but figured with night time vehicle operations it would come in handy.

If done man portable it folds up into its little carrying case that can be stowed in a small ruck or my ruck zip on panel on the back of my carrier. I have a Crye admin pouch that's made for a phone, that you mount on the upper chest of your rig/carrier that can flip down and holds itself up. Drone comes out and I can fly it with a finger via the phone in the admin pouch while not having to stop or sort things out. Real time google earth/GPS on the drone and you can find your target, have the camera lock onto it and if its not visible to you (i.e. close) simply plug in the GPS in my wrist Garmin and I know the direction and distance from where I stand or am moving towards.

Extra bonus is that the Garmin wrist GPS can send the updates to anyone else on your squad with one so there's no need to 'hand hold' anyone, especially if they aren't 5 feet away from you. A bit overkill for a coyote, but I was thinking in an overall sense on how to get this setup for the most advantage.

 

[woodsy]

I run a Breach on a RQE with NV and find it very useful. I use it for detection and ID with the XP38 when needed. It's small and light which allows me to wear a helmet for hours without fatigue. Fairly cheap too. Are there better units out there? Absolutely but how much do you want to spend? I'd love to have cutting edge shit but it's pretty hard to justify. I'm more interested in having stuff that meets my needs than worried about being the coolest kid on the block or having to be on the lookout for insurgents.

 

[wigwamitus]

... I'm more interested in having stuff that meets my needs ...

ditto ... but does the breach meet my needs ?? I'd say "issue in doubt".

1. Could not detect deer at 150yds (UTC on rifle saw deer just fine - breach saw nothing)
2. Could not detect coon at 50yds (UTC on rifle saw coon just fine - breach did not)
3. Could detect 12 inch heated steel at 500yds.

At the very least, I'd like to be able to detect deer sized critter in woods out to 200yds ... and evidence to date indicates breach might not be able to do that. Would like to be able to detect coon sized critter in woods out to 100yds ... evidence to date indicates breach cannot.

So does the breach meet my needs ? So far, "issue in doubt".

Patrol and Skeet have proven they exceed these requirements in several years of use. I only got the breach at very beginning of March 2020, so still shaking it out.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Wig, I remember you said the deer got in some grass/cover. But was the coon at 50 yards in the wide open with no vegetation obscuring him?

 

[wigwamitus]

I would say the deer was in the open ... but there were some intervening saplings ... nothing I would call "cover" ... nothing any other thermal I have couldn't see thru. I was surprised the breach saw nothing ... I went back and forth between the UTC and the breach to make sure the breach was looking in the correct area ... but nothing ... not even a warm glow. Maybe it was "magic" !?

The coon was in the woodshed ... I wouldn't call that in the open ... but there was no intervening vegetation ... the woodshed is full of wood and spare stuff like a door, some cider blocks, etc. so a varied background with some of those shapes being warmer/cooler than others. But with the UTC there was clearly a coon there ... with the breach just some variations in color none of which stood out like a critter.

 

[TheGerman]

Wig, I remember you said the deer got in some grass/cover. But was the coon at 50 yards in the wide open with no vegetation obscuring him?

What hes not telling you is that the deer was wearing SAAB Barricuda netting.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I would say the deer was in the open ... but there were some intervening saplings ... nothing I would call "cover" ... nothing any other thermal I have couldn't see thru. I was surprised the breach saw nothing ... I went back and forth between the UTC and the breach to make sure the breach was looking in the correct area ... but nothing ... not even a warm glow. Maybe it was "magic" !?

The coon was in the woodshed ... I wouldn't call that in the open ... but there was no intervening vegetation ... the woodshed is full of wood and spare stuff like a door, some cider blocks, etc. so a varied background with some of those shapes being warmer/cooler than others. But with the UTC there was clearly a coon there ... with the breach just some variations in color none of which stood out like a critter.

Gotcha, definitely think for that particular night the Gain really needed turning up. With the small lens the Breach is temperamental on its detecting ability and I have to adjust it at the start of the night and then if the thermal conditions deteriorate definitely have to usually increase the Gain some more.

When I say temperamental, if the Gain is up too much early in the evening typically you get too much noise. So turn it down a little. Then increase it later as evening thermal emissivity deteriorates usually in my part of the world.

The Gain is the only adjustment that I increase or decrease besides maybe a Pallete change now and then. But I am getting much better detection that what it seems like you got that night. It is definitely not a good PID thermal but that is not its role for me.

I have some pretty tall dead grass in the winter that I watch 25ish to 40ish pound dogs go in and out of on a regular basis at 150 yards in some pretty marginal thermal conditions. I don't get great detection but an in and out image as they pass through thicker to thinner grass.

My buddies use the Breach during the day to deer hunt. One of them also uses a Patrol. Point being they spot them in pretty thick cover. Thick enough that they have a hard time seeing them even when they put a rifle scope on them. Ranges are probably out to 150 yards max in the particular area I know they are hunting in.

So hopefully the Breach will start performing more solid for you.

Oh one other thing I have observed or think I have observed over my time with thermal. It appears to me that high winds effects the thermal image as well. Is that something you have noticed? Or is that just my imagination?

 

[wigwamitus]

... It appears to me that high winds effects the thermal image ...

Hecque yeah ... wash out conditions caused by ...

rain ... not so much rain in the air ... as rain on the trees, ground etc. tends to make everything the same temp ... that's wash out.
ice ... same ... everything iced up ... same temp ... wash out
snow ... same
wind ... disperses the emissivity ... the heat coming out of the object ... tending to make things appear to be the same temp. Doesn't apply to critters but does apply to terrain ...

In all cases ... washout affects the terrain .. not much the critters .. so we call it "floating in a sea of grey" ... like if you see some hogs ... then you see the hogs fine ... but no terrain ... they're just floating in a sea of grey .. which makes orientation tough .. .and judging distance by land marks though.

==
In the BAE units (UTC/x/Skeet) the adjustment called "GAIN" ... is equivalent to "Contrast" in most other thermals. You trade a grainy image for reduction of washout. You can then see more of the terrain of the expense of a more grainy image. But, I find it essential. But as to how much gain, to click up, experience will help you answer that and I don't even think about it ... its automatic.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Hecque yeah ... wash out conditions caused by ...

rain ... not so much rain in the air ... as rain on the trees, ground etc. tends to make everything the same temp ... that's wash out.
ice ... same ... everything iced up ... same temp ... wash out
snow ... same
wind ... disperses the emissivity ... the heat coming out of the object ... tending to make things appear to be the same temp. Doesn't apply to critters but does apply to terrain ...

In all cases ... washout affects the terrain .. not much the critters .. so we call it "floating in a sea of grey" ... like if you see some hogs ... then you see the hogs fine ... but no terrain ... they're just floating in a sea of grey .. which makes orientation tough .. .and judging distance by land marks though.

==
In the BAE units (UTC/x/Skeet) the adjustment called "GAIN" ... is equivalent to "Contrast" in most other thermals. You trade a grainy image for reduction of washout. You can then see more of the terrain of the expense of a more grainy image. But, I find it essential. But as to how much gain, to click up, experience will help you answer that and I don't even think about it ... its automatic.

Im used to the regular type wash out. I probably didn't state my question correctly. Let me try again.

During good thermal conditions, have you ever noticed just strong wind and wind only (say 25mph & up) significantly effect 1. Scenery and 2. Animals

 

[wigwamitus]

I did't state my answer clearly. YES wind causes washout ... each of the conditions I named causes washout by itself. Now with any of them, the AMOUNT of the disruptive element causes more or less washout. A little wind ... not noticeable ... a lot of wind ... for a longer period ... more and more washout.

Wind is not good thermal conditions ... at least a lot of wind ... for a good period of time ... like 15+ mph all night .. .definitely noticeable.

 

[MarinePMI]

FYI: What you're calling "wash out" is referred to as "cross over" in the imagery intel community. It's called that because as the emissivity of one object lessens, it "crosses over" the emissivity boundary/frequency of another object. It's why bridges sometimes "disappear" into a river, in overhead IR imagery. Their emissivity just happens to match the river's as the image is taken.

Just a nitnoid to add to the discussion...

 

[wigwamitus]

Aye, over on our side, we just "make it up as we go along"

 

[MarinePMI]

Aye, over on our side, we just "make it up as we go along"

Lol. Sorry. Didn't mean to get all "professor" on everyone. <blush>

 

[wigwamitus]

... imagery intel community ...

Haha, at first I thought you said the "imaginary intel community" ... now THOSE GUYS I'd heard of But not the "imagery intel community" ... didn't know there was such a thing !! ... I guess you could call us the "night hunter community" ???

 

[MarinePMI]

Haha, at first I thought you said the "imaginary intel community" ... now THOSE GUYS I'd heard of But not the "imagery intel community" ... didn't know there was such a thing !! ... I guess you could call us the "night hunter community" ???

Lol. Yeah, we'd just sit around all day, looking at pictures (hence the nickname "squints") for an organization that used to not officially exist. But that was many moons ago...

And yes, the "night hunter community" would certainly be a fitting name.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I did't state my answer clearly. YES wind causes washout ... each of the conditions I named causes washout by itself. Now with any of them, the AMOUNT of the disruptive element causes more or less washout. A little wind ... not noticeable ... a lot of wind ... for a longer period ... more and more washout.

Wind is not good thermal conditions ... at least a lot of wind ... for a good period of time ... like 15+ mph all night .. .definitely noticeable.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I don't have the normal wind speed that you have up in your part of the world so figured you would know a lot better than me.

 

[woodsy]

ditto ... but does the breach meet my needs ?? I'd say "issue in doubt".

1. Could not detect deer at 150yds (UTC on rifle saw deer just fine - breach saw nothing)
2. Could not detect coon at 50yds (UTC on rifle saw coon just fine - breach did not)
3. Could detect 12 inch heated steel at 500yds.

At the very least, I'd like to be able to detect deer sized critter in woods out to 200yds ... and evidence to date indicates breach might not be able to do that. Would like to be able to detect coon sized critter in woods out to 100yds ... evidence to date indicates breach cannot.

So does the breach meet my needs ? So far, "issue in doubt".

Patrol and Skeet have proven they exceed these requirements in several years of use. I only got the breach at very beginning of March 2020, so still shaking it out.

Those results surprise me and I wonder if you have a unit that is faulty? Detecting deer at 500 in the open isn't a problem with mine. Raccoons at 250 are do-able too. Granted, those are during pristine thermal conditions and behavior is needed to zero in on ID but mine seems to do okay. I'm sure it's nowhere near the performance of a Patrol or Skeet but the Breach doesn't come with their price tag either.

 

[PlinkIt]

Here was my experience when looking at breach for hunting predators, or just general animal watching

Did some reading, and watching videos
Decided breach should be good for what I'm doing.
Got it and thought WOW this is great

Then I got some better thermals... and realized how much the breach was missing because conditions are never perfect and the animals ALWAYS want to linger around behind brush and the breach just didn't have enough horse power to see them in MANY cases

So then I'm back to hauling a heavy scanner around my neck and the breach on my head..

Finally decided ... forget the breach ... what's the point... I'm tired of not knowing something is out there until I pick up the bigger / better scanner off my neck

So sell breach...

Come back to forum...

Read hundreds of posts about how great the breach is / can be if it's set up correctly...

Decide I must be a moron and never had it set up correctly.

Get a 2nd breach...

Try changing every setting under the sun while watching stuff in cutover with better units... Still can't see MUCH of it with the breach

Finally break down and buy patrol

Now I can watch mice run up trees and I'm having a panic thinking a bear is coming through the woods because I see such a bright spot through limbs...
Recalibrate brain to what a GOOD thermal scanner should see..
Sell breach again

Don't care if it's because I'm too stupid to set up the breach correctly at this point...
Don't disagree that the breach is FAR lighter, and cheaper...
If I win a breach I'll sell it to help fund a better scanner

Identify deer vs coyote at >400 yards when all you could see was their heads... While wearing the patrol as a scanner beside a 14... Now this is AWESOME

Now I want a second patrol & to try a skeet...

hope your retirement lives through night vision better than mine

 

[WhereNow&How]

A Patrol is a much stronger unit. Lets take a look at how much stronger.

So most definitely, a Patrol 300 should easily beat a Breach's performance.

I have used a Patrol (my buddies) and also own 3 Breach's. Used his Patrol 300 before I bought my 1st Breach. Didn't really like the Breach much at first. But learned how to make it perform at its best (still not up to any where near a Patrol) and decided that the Breach did a good enough job for what I wanted it to do. Plus the cost to benefit ratio better suited my needs.

I have much stronger thermal to give both Detection and PID at much longer distances if need be. A PTS 736 with 75 mm of Germanium working is pretty darn good for long range. I like a layered approach to my systems that when combined work well.

It is very hard/ I say impossible to find a one and done solution to all the situations one finds themselves presented with at night.

 

[Zemperfi1971]

Breach is crap.... consider a COTI?

 

[WhereNow&How]

Breach is crap.... consider a COTI?

I run them too. So I got a pretty good idea what both the Breach & COTI do and how they perform against each other. A Breach will outperform a COTI as far as long distance detection. However, the COTI being a fused system is also a great system that performs a completely different role.

So the Breach has been around a couple of years and there has been about 40,000 of them sold per the latest serial numbers. The Pas 29 has been around for what 10 years ??? I think there has been about less than 15,000 sold.

If you told me I had to absolutely pick one over the other and could only have one. I would take the Breach.

 

[lahunter57]

Is anyone running a -14 and the MH-25?

 

[jstokes1]

Is anyone running a -14 and the MH-25?

I will be soon. Just need a bridge mount. Only modification to MH 25 that I have done was get rid of that God awful OEM eyepiece and replace it with the UNV PVS 14 eyepiece and adapter.

 

[BamaSE]

Here is another option. Attached is a picture of the AGM Sting IR and data sheet. 640 has an MSRP of $4000, and 320 $2500. I have asked around for other pertinent details such as whether it can be dual mounted with a PVS14 and what the eye relief is and whether it can be used with eyeglasses. But no one has much info other than it is supposed to be released sometime this month. If anyone has any other info please advise. This is the first time I have posted a picture here so I hope this shows up! If not will redo. Thanks.