I want to be careful not to ruffle any feathers, but I have an honest question. I'm interested in shooting at QSC in the upcoming PRS match, but the drive is quite a long way for me. I've shot at Pigg River and thought it was a great experience with the beautiful rolling hills and perfect grass, varied terrain and interesting props. I've shot at other places like Coleman's Creek and Frontline Defense that have unique features like mountainous terrain or nice wooded areas. The pictures I've seen of QSC look like it's a fairly basic square range with flat terrain and not much "novelty" to speak of. Again, not trying to bash, but looking for some opinions - is the drive to the Quantico match worth it if there are options closer to me?
Quantico Shooting Club - Worth the Drive?
- Thread starter _Thor_
- Start date
Yup shot at all of them. In central NC too.
Honestly Quantico wouldn’t be worth the drive for me. Shot a .22 match there before and it’s a square range and you have to wait and get a pass to get in the gate so have to get there earlier. The pass lasts for a year though so that’s good. If you wanted to go and see for yourself then make the drive up.
I have shot both gas gun and PRS matches there.
The range is square and limited in ways but overall it’s a well organized match, there are almost always great shooters there to compete against and it is well organized/ran.
Yes make sure you contact them before in order to plan for gate access. But like anything once you understand the system, it’s not anything to fear or worry about.
The range is square and limited in ways but overall it’s a well organized match, there are almost always great shooters there to compete against and it is well organized/ran.
Yes make sure you contact them before in order to plan for gate access. But like anything once you understand the system, it’s not anything to fear or worry about.
It's a horrifically run match....wtf are you talking about. Like 5 of the top shooters left half way through the last match it was so bad. The Two matches before that were terrible as well. Guys who live 30 mins away and travel to shoot every weekend won't even shoot there anymore. Pro shooters...not kids who don't know the difference between a well run match and a shitshow.
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I’ll ask one of my teammates. He used to MD matches there for Rimfire.
I believe they have service rifle there also.
I believe they have service rifle there also.
-Target ranges off by more than 20 yards.
-Targets you couldn't even see from the props
-Wobbly ass dangerous props despite having a whole array of steel props to utilize
-Md making up rules as they go along, throwing out stages wishy washy. I won a match then they later threw out the stage and dropped to like 4th. At another match I finished 3rd then dropped to 8th after they threw out another stage I cleaned. Totally fucked up regional points.
-targets at sub 200 yards despite half the guys there including USMC team shooting 175gr smk.
-Target failures all day
-one match they put out rimfire steel for CF match and were bitching about people shooting AP...
-more shit I can't remember
They shouldn't be allowed to be a PRS points match. Virtually every pro and semi pro I know who shot it said the same thing.
This is why rule #1 in PRS is only shoot matches run by experienced competitors.
-Targets you couldn't even see from the props
-Wobbly ass dangerous props despite having a whole array of steel props to utilize
-Md making up rules as they go along, throwing out stages wishy washy. I won a match then they later threw out the stage and dropped to like 4th. At another match I finished 3rd then dropped to 8th after they threw out another stage I cleaned. Totally fucked up regional points.
-targets at sub 200 yards despite half the guys there including USMC team shooting 175gr smk.
-Target failures all day
-one match they put out rimfire steel for CF match and were bitching about people shooting AP...
-more shit I can't remember
They shouldn't be allowed to be a PRS points match. Virtually every pro and semi pro I know who shot it said the same thing.
This is why rule #1 in PRS is only shoot matches run by experienced competitors.
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Hey man, just saying I don’t think you talk to your friends face to face that way no matter how wrong you think they are. Maybe I am wrong but I don’t need to insult someone to prove when I am right.
Maybe consider showing courtesy here too
Just a friendly suggestion for your consideration
Note that “charm” isn’t part of his name…
Sorry wasn't trying to be argumentative or insulting. Just being honest about the matches. But they were THAT bad.
That’s why I stopped shooting at peacemaker 10 years ago… ain’t got time for poorly run matches that run long.
Is this Mr. H, sir (and on the O-5 list still or recently promoted?)No worries. And thank you.
I only cried a little bit over this anyways
lol, no. But I know Tim well hahahaIs this Mr. H, sir (and on the O-5 list still or recently promoted?)
I haven't seen him since the Rod & Gun days/States in the 'burg, but your side profile was almost close, so had to ask. Well-played.
I haven’t heard where his next stop is.
Ironically the last one I shot there was one of his last and was the quality I was mentioning. Didn’t know they fell so far since
Quantico is my home range, shoot there almost every weekend and have always enjoyed my time there.
I am new to PRS, only 3 matches under my belt, two of which are at Quantico, the other was at Coleman's creek, all within the last 6 months so my baseline comparison is different to others who have chimed in with prior experiences.
I agree that the range experiences are vastly different given Quantico's Ironman Range was designed for Marine Corps quals/flat (literally and figuratively) range training, compared to something like Coleman's Creek that has purposefully designed lanes, various terrain, props, and shooting into and out of valleys.
If one is "blessed enough" to live in the DMV area, Quantico is awesome for those of us who live locally, its hard to find and regularly shoot 750-1000yards and a mixed steel range within 30 minutes of a major metro, let alone the commieville of Washington DC.
For whatever it is worth, I can definitely relate to the time to do a match with the drive, I am pretty picky on traveling for the sport myself. I can say from my n=1 experience that the club and its leadership is very open to constructive feedback for PRS matches.
Happy to bring you on as a guest if you want to visit before a match, but understand making a drive to visit vs just doing the match may not be value add. There is a solid group of us that go to practice when Ironman is open.
If you live nearby, it’s an awesome place to sling some lead—but let’s be honest, you probably have a closer spot unless you enjoy burning gas like it’s 2005. The long-range gang is a wild mix of gear junkies, sharpshooters, and people who just really love spending a weekend trying to hit a target the size of a Tic Tac from three zip codes away.
Expect a parade of gadgets every time you go—new scopes, binoculars that could read your cholesterol, lasers strong enough to shave a squirrel, you name it. Most folks are pretty chill and will happily let you check out their latest toys or answer questions like they’re teaching a TED Talk in camo. One guy in particular fitting that description appears to be fueled exclusively by energy drinks and is usually found shooting with an unshakably calm Asian dude and a hyper-chatty British guy.
As for membership? Not totally sure if you're close enough per the bylaws, but hey, it's worth asking as long as you're cool with possibly needing a passport to get there.
Defender3 is the supreme leader of the club and can answer any other specifics
Expect a parade of gadgets every time you go—new scopes, binoculars that could read your cholesterol, lasers strong enough to shave a squirrel, you name it. Most folks are pretty chill and will happily let you check out their latest toys or answer questions like they’re teaching a TED Talk in camo. One guy in particular fitting that description appears to be fueled exclusively by energy drinks and is usually found shooting with an unshakably calm Asian dude and a hyper-chatty British guy.
As for membership? Not totally sure if you're close enough per the bylaws, but hey, it's worth asking as long as you're cool with possibly needing a passport to get there.
Defender3 is the supreme leader of the club and can answer any other specifics
He's already back and is starting up USPSA in October. Not sure what his PRS match plans are.
How dare you suggest I wear Camo at the range.
I'm usually the only one in shorts and flip Flopz.
I'm the President of the Quantico Shooting Club. Sorry to be late to the thread but I've had some life stuff happening that has consumed my personal time. I'm retired, retired now and just got my eyes fixed, so I'm back and catching up. I also have more free time to address issues and direct change than when I was full time working. Feedback is always appreciated, more on that in the loooooong reply.
Quantico matches were never meant to be more than they are, club matches, run by volunteers, on USMC square ranges. Each one of those is a variable that introduces it's own pain. Long email alert with no TL/DR.
Bitching:
@_Thor_ QSC may not meet your expectations and the cost / benefit may not be favorable as we can't present unique features that a private range provides.
@Rob01 We register on Practiscore and provide the attendee list to the visitors center. Those on the list are granted immediate base access with no pass necessary.
@DeathBeforeDismount I've had you on ignore for some time, you're simply an ass. You probably have an opinion of me, so that means we understand each other. I received an email about the last match, probably from someone in this thread, and with the same tone as your post. It was the first I've received in more than a year (maybe two) about matches, and while it was churlish and sophomoric, I could not ignore the salient points, which opened a discussion with the author, the match director and some of the shooters. I will not go into all the steps I suggested but we are trying to improve.
@TheOE800 Your point is the dichotomy, how do we cater to experienced shooters when we also have many new PRS shooters that slow the line? It's hard enough to run a match, let alone run intro to PRS seminars
ALCON - Tim is back, but to mainside, not WTBN. He has expressed a desire to run USPSA, but not PRS. I suspect two reasons:
@Tritiumdials Everything we do is directed by MCBQ and RC rules. Our RSOs go though 20hrs+ of training just to give you that safety brief, and still, we don't get to call for fire or shoot javelins...
I'll continue to answer questions and take suggestions but you can see how the stressors we have contribute to the issues.
DISCLAIMER - If I sound bitchy, I apologize, I'm usually of calmer state, but I've once again spent days trying to do something simple (get the ranges cut and maintained) and find myself having to do MCBQ's job.
Here's what we had at one time.
Quantico matches were never meant to be more than they are, club matches, run by volunteers, on USMC square ranges. Each one of those is a variable that introduces it's own pain. Long email alert with no TL/DR.
Bitching:
- We do the best we can - all our MDs changed station and replacing them has been a struggle that's affected match quality
- Everything is run by volunteers, and few want to step up to run matches or the club
- I'm 68 and find myself as the compensatory measure, I can't do this forever
- Our not-for-profit status, combined with archaic Navy MOUs prevents us from generating excess funding - that introduces pain
- We pay for everything on base, it costs us $70,000 just to turn the lights on and about $125k annually to operate
- We pay $350 a day for admin support and the required EMT. A range costs $485 a day to the Navy.
- Our most expensive membership is $190, do the math against costs. We rely on matches to help with funding
- We've spent almost $100k to fix USMC facilities - they have no money and it's the only way to keep the club running
- We're five years into a plan to save us from the clowns who used to run the club - you know the FUDD type good ole boys
- The damage they did is still being fixed
- We had like $9k in the bank and over $25k in liabilities
- We now run the club as a profit and loss center and we are solvent
- Did I mention we're all volunteer and no-one wants to help?
- Won't matter, when I die in place or with Spamberger getting elected Gov next year, we're cooked
- Yes cooked, I doubt MCBQ will pull any federal card to over rule any commonwealth mandates
- Goodbye ARs and mags - it's for the children - Just vote
- 48% of VA gun owners did not vote in the last election and we lost the Senate and elected Woke shitake
- These are not necessarily the views of the QSC, the USMC or Dept of the Navy
- Won't matter, when I die in place or with Spamberger getting elected Gov next year, we're cooked
@_Thor_ QSC may not meet your expectations and the cost / benefit may not be favorable as we can't present unique features that a private range provides.
@Rob01 We register on Practiscore and provide the attendee list to the visitors center. Those on the list are granted immediate base access with no pass necessary.
@DeathBeforeDismount I've had you on ignore for some time, you're simply an ass. You probably have an opinion of me, so that means we understand each other. I received an email about the last match, probably from someone in this thread, and with the same tone as your post. It was the first I've received in more than a year (maybe two) about matches, and while it was churlish and sophomoric, I could not ignore the salient points, which opened a discussion with the author, the match director and some of the shooters. I will not go into all the steps I suggested but we are trying to improve.
- The lack of shooter feedback brought us to the straw that breaks the camels back point. Lot's of concerns that have been building
- Due to the feedback, we just invested in and received a pallet of new steel and hangers from MGM with their target lock feature so targets will not be shot off a hanger
- While not every target will be locked, we have enough to handle targets at short and mid ranges across all stages as larger targets do not need to be locked
- Target ranging - I spoke to the MD about geolocating the targets as well as getting firm distances
- There were issues with the setup crew that I believe created the problem
- One other point - we lost access to the 700yd line on Ironman, the paths are now blocked by large trees that fell and blocked access (I'm talking huge trees we cannot chainsaw ourselves). This presents a new issue getting steel into the rear tree line
- Grass height - I spent last week speaking with WTBn S4, Public Works Roads and Grounds and the TBS school house that schedule ranges. They've scheduled ranges every day since April, so the grass cutters cannot access the ranges
- Long story short, I'm spending the day on Ironman today cutting it with the club's zero turn
- Dropped Stage - The last match should not have been run given the condition of the range (see above about grass)
- They ran it and Stage 7 (I believe) had to be dropped
- My understanding is the MD followed PRS rules to make the call
- The email I received was specific to that point even though the person's performance on that stage would not have changed his overall scoring by more than a single place (again, IIRC from what the MD related
- There should be no bad props - we have plenty to use - but do we care if they're shaky? Isn't that the point of an improvised position (serious question from a non-PRS shooter)?
- One last point - Because of USMC scheduling, our setup crews rarely get full range access for setup in a reasonable time. The last match was being setup on Ironman until almost 9pm to try and make the match a go
@TheOE800 Your point is the dichotomy, how do we cater to experienced shooters when we also have many new PRS shooters that slow the line? It's hard enough to run a match, let alone run intro to PRS seminars
ALCON - Tim is back, but to mainside, not WTBN. He has expressed a desire to run USPSA, but not PRS. I suspect two reasons:
- He will not have availability of WTBn resources to assist with design, setup, etc.
- No one else steps up to help
- We don't have stage designers
- We don't have people to suggest or make props
- I continually discuss this with the MDs, just tell me what you need and we'll make it happen
- We struggle just to find enough people to do setup
- The lack of resources is a pain point
- Open to viable suggestions
@Tritiumdials Everything we do is directed by MCBQ and RC rules. Our RSOs go though 20hrs+ of training just to give you that safety brief, and still, we don't get to call for fire or shoot javelins...
I'll continue to answer questions and take suggestions but you can see how the stressors we have contribute to the issues.
DISCLAIMER - If I sound bitchy, I apologize, I'm usually of calmer state, but I've once again spent days trying to do something simple (get the ranges cut and maintained) and find myself having to do MCBQ's job.
Here's what we had at one time.
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That wasn’t my experience. Had to get a pass when I went to a match there.
You still have to register once a year and do the background check. This can take more than an hour and the access is only good for a year.
The Shooter feedback was there. We have talked with the MD's on multiple occasions. I gave a bunch of suggestions for target locking solutions which sounds like its finally ringing home after 2 years (Mostly with the Air force kid). Also switching to ar500 tposts will almost eliminate target failures in conjunction with locking steel. Big cost up front but pays for it self over time. And every time we would come back it would be the same shit. Matches start late and take forever to finish because they are poorly designed and ran
Targets should be ranged from the target. Park a vehicle right behind or next to the prop you are shooting from. Use at least 2 different range finders to make sure one is not "off". Now you have a big reflective target and should be able to get ranges within a yard or two, even with the shittiest RFs.
Almost every match had arbitrarily dropped stages. Per the rules of the PRS you need atleast 8 stages for a score, so you want to at a min run 9 stages in case you need to throw one out. And those stages thrown out should have never been made in the first place. If someone simply put a gun on the props you could see there was no viable line of sight not to mention ranges off by more than 20 yards. If its a prone stage put your ass on the ground and mock fire the stage to ensure its viable.
This is not 2016. Its the precision rifle series not the lets time our wobble off shitty props and hope for a hit series. Props should be stable and even in the case of something like a cattlegate, if you cannot get stable should be obvious tripod rear type situation. A good MD will setup a match so you don't HAVE to use tripod rear to shoot well, but also should understand people may use it. A broken falling apart plastic barrel with chunks missing out is not a good prop. There is a SHITLOAD of good steel props out at that range that are never used. More than enough to ensure every stage is stable.
Also, it wasn't me that sent that email but I have an idea who it was. Have you asked any of the experienced shooters for help? Have you asked the USMC shooting team who has PRS guys on it, for help? These have all been easily fixable solutions. Perhaps having your Match directors go shoot other regional PRS matches to gain experience would be well worth the time and cost.
I used to be a member of the club when I lived in the area. After going to one meeting and seeing how retarded the leadership was , that was enough.
Its really not. First you establish squad moms. Experienced shooters shoot for free so they manage the squad and scoring. Switch to Impact Scoring. Its way better than practiscore and is in real time. Spread shooters out across squads. Any squads that are moving too slow get a warning and then a stage DQ. Squad moms will make sure everyone is getting their shit together. Anyone taking their good old time or not listening gets match DQ after consulting with the MD. Use the USMC team as a resource if you can. There are experienced guys there that could give you advice.
Catering to experienced shooters and new shooters is about Time and Movement and Target Size. Not woblly propos or gimmicky shit.
If your match is mostly newer shooters, then make the par times 2 minutes. Have less dialing between targets, Less movement between targets ect. You control match difficulty by target size, how many positions you need to builld (movement), The order in which you shoot targets and Time. Idealy you have a good mix of easier stages and harder stages. This ensures the newer shooters are getting hits and having fun while allowing for some seperation for the better shooters. What you do NOT want is people cleaning the match. It can happen if conditions are right and a shooter is one fire, but idealy in a 100 round day you want your winner to miss between 3-10 shots assuming they are a high level shooter. Something like a few Moa or smaller target sprinked in , even a half moa target for one or two shots is enough to really stress the best shooters. If you expect alot of wind, then put bigger targets out. If you expect no wind, smaller targets. Mother nature doesnt always work out but something to think about. You can get wind forecasts a day or two out. The goal is for the bulk if your non brand new shooters to hit between 50-85%. The new ones will be lower and your pros and high level shooters will probably be in the 90%s. But its a way to ballance the scoring inline with what you see across the nation. If the match is too hard people wont show up. If its too easy people will show up but screws up regional scoring and they will not respect the match.
These are all things learned through experience. If you dont have it or have it in house, go seek it. Send your people out to shoot matches so they can learn. Its better to have no match then have some inexperienced person put on a match and have people drive from hours away just to get pissed off and waste their time and money. Luckily there is enough shooter density in that area that you will have a decent turn out, but it could be a destination match if it was done right.
If you have a RealID you do not need a pass.. Actually without a RealID you will be turned away..They migh let you in on a current passport but I would check. The pass is no longer a thing..and everyone in your car must have the RealID..
I had a real ID and had to go through the pass and ID building to get a year pass.
That's not true. I have a clearance, federal credentials, Real ID and a Disabled Vet's ID and I still had to go through the same process as everyone to get a pass. They can add your credentials to the pass list but its only good for a year. DBIDS is different at every base. I have to go through the same shit at every base I get access to for treatments or to use the commissary.
Non DOD CAC. When I worked for DOD and was a member of the club they didn't even scan cards at the time. Just look to see if you had one and let you in. Same thing with any base. Alot of things have changed in the last 10 years.
Everyone of your points and the counterpoints made by other people is happening at our club (Santa Margarita Gun Club) on MCB Camp Pendleton, San Diego CA. At least your "guest competitor's" pass is good for a year. Our members get a year pass, non-member match signups have to go get a "week-end" pass at the commercial business visitor center that's only open Mon-Thurs 8-3....Pretty much quit trying to get non-members to show up to help pay the bills.
Yeah, it sounds like the PRS matches put on at Quantico are geared more for the members and their varied levels of skill than the more accomplished competitor traveling to higher level matches-which is what we are doing.
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The visitor control office causes us fits, they continually change the rules and the guys on the gate may or may not be up-to-date. The club has stopped answering questions and we refer everyone to VC. You are correct, to get a one-year pass you do have to go to the VC, file the NAVFAC form, present your IDs, get an instant background check and then receive a pass. My comment was for people attending a single match; the match roster with a valid ID should be sufficient, and you should be able to do the same for each match.
This is true, someone in DBIDS at Camp Whatever has to be added to Quantico's authorized list. There was supposed to be a streamlined process, but your reply seems to refute simplicity.
Your procedures are different than VC at Quantico. We have 30% non-DoD members (who do pay the bills) and we sponsor them for DBIDS access, which used to be two-years, but is only yearly now. We're still waiting on final guidance regarding REAL ID as it was supposed to be implemented a couple months back.
The gate guards have NCIC terminals and people coming to the club when the VC is closed are actually run at the gate. Usually a quick process and the shooter then proceeds.
Six of us spent the day on Ironman cutting and edging to prepare for PRS rimfire next weekend. Public Works also had two large tractors with towed mowers for a few hours but they bailed at noon. Despite all the work, we're only half done and will pick up again tomorrow. We also inventoried the MGM steel and I had the MD and crew dispose of all the props we will not use or that are unusable. It was slow work as the grass is 3' to 4' tall and even with a commercial zero turn, it takes more time that usual.
ALCON - If anyone has decent PRS centerfire match books, let me know and I want to compare against what we're doing. Drop me an IM and I'll send you my email addy.
ALCON - If anyone has decent PRS centerfire match books, let me know and I want to compare against what we're doing. Drop me an IM and I'll send you my email addy.
I was attending a single match and had to do that. That it’s ever changing with no consistency is an issue.
I am digesting this feedback. Some initial thoughts:
I was not aware people still needed to go to the VC to get a pass. I'll check with them as the match roster with ID was the agreement we had to speed access.
Feedback to the MDs seems to be a black hole. Best it come with to me so I can make inquiries and determine solutions. I do care about the club and have been implementing improvements. Clearly I need to expand my focus and spend more time assuring quality in matches.
I looked over our match books back to 2021. I'm not a competitor so, my knowledge of good vs bad is not as mature as a competitor. I have made suggestions to the MD on the MB but think there are more improvements to be made.
I don't think we could afford T-post protectors. At $178ea, that would be a minimum of a $5k investment. We also cannot leave targets on the range, we have to setup and tear down each match, which presents another problem for us.
I am stunned we cannot do something as easy as range a target. It's not rocket science and with the toys we have, it should not be an issue.
I agree with you on props and targets, that match should not have been run under the poor conditions on the range. Hopefully, our work to mow and clear the range of obstructions will make the next match better.
I'm going to stop here for now as I have to coordinate the work party for tomorrow as well as put some more brain cells to your suggestions, which I appreciate BTW.
Appreciate the update. Again, they seem to change the rules weekly. Used to have "trusted traveler" where I could simply vouch for you (in your car behind my car) and off we'd go. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
Most steel makers give discounts for volume and to matches / clubs. D-M targets and JC steel are two of the better ones. D-M ships for free above $200. You could also find someone with a CNC laser or water jet and buy sheets of steel ar500 to have targets cut. It's way cheaper. I'm sure someone at the club knows someone.
You don't need as many armored tposts as you think and some of the better hanger solutions let you hang 2 or ,3 pieces of steel from the same post reducing the number you need. That's less posts pulling out of the ground and hammering back in for a match. Virtually no down time as the targets won't fail and should last damn near forever.
www.targethangingsolutions.com
Another solution is tposts protectors. They will still get beat up over time but it will keep them from getting shot in half.
You don't need as many armored tposts as you think and some of the better hanger solutions let you hang 2 or ,3 pieces of steel from the same post reducing the number you need. That's less posts pulling out of the ground and hammering back in for a match. Virtually no down time as the targets won't fail and should last damn near forever.
HANGING KITS | Target Hanging Solutions
T Post hangers, target stands, strap kits, etc.
www.targethangingsolutions.com
Another solution is tposts protectors. They will still get beat up over time but it will keep them from getting shot in half.
...and just like that—"Diversity" is no longer [your] strength! Instead, VA looks poised to elect a woke, white woman (the cancer of our culture) who welcomes illegals more than community policing...but I digress.
PS: I read your post in my best Skip voice!
, but have to ask what all this "Ironman" nonsense is...looks an awful lot like R305, so there was a name change in the last decade?
They named the range after Colonel William "Ironman" Lee in 1992. 305 stuck for years until they placed the plaque and small monument about 5 years ago....and just like that—"Diversity" is no longer [your] strength! Instead, VA looks poised to elect a woke, white woman (the cancer of our culture) who welcomes illegals more than community policing...but I digress.
PS: I read your post in my best Skip voice!
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