Question About Barrel Extension

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Minuteman
May 8, 2013
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Portland
Thinking about getting a new barrel for my MSR 10 and wondering about how tight the barrel extension should fit the upper receiver?
Right now with existing set up there is .006 (approximately?) difference between the two.
Should the two fit tighter for better accuracy? I can move the end of the barrel when everything is assembled approximately 1/8" in any direction.

Just thinking it should fit tighter?
Thanks for any info!
 
You could get some stainless shim stock and cut it so it wraps around the barrel extension to make a tighter fit. Make sure the shim won't interfere with the barrel extension seating in the receiver. Loctite can be used as well for smaller gaps. If you use loctite be careful it doesn't run down into the chamber and bore!
 
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You could get some stainless shim stock and cut it so it wraps around the barrel extension to make a tighter fit. Make sure the shim won't interfere with the barrel extension seating in the receiver. Loctite can be used as well for smaller gaps. If you use loctite be careful it doesn't run down into the chamber and bore!

This, the shim stock comes in a variety of mils. Just remember , if you have 6mils difference... you'd want 1/2 that thickness in shim stock. ( 3mils each side )

I ordered mine from McMaster -Carr... I'd suggest a vareity of thickness sheets.

At this link... look for ...
18-8 Stainless Steel Shim Stock Sets
I would get the "12" piece set.... you'd be surprised how "handy" shim stock can be.

https://www.mcmaster.com/stainless-steel-shim-stock
 
So, if I order the shim stock should I order .003 or .002? Also the barrel nut threads on the inside of the receiver which makes it extremely hard to keep the shim in place. Thanks for the replies.
 
The mating surfaces of the upper, barrel shoulder and nut provide alignment not the bore of the barrel extension and upper. I have used locktite to bed barrel extensions to take up slop but I would not use shim stock. Shim stock may force the barrel out of alignment preventing it from aligning properly on the shoulders. Loctite simply fills any remaining gap to remove slop after the barrel is brought into alignment from torquing the barrel nut.
 
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That's my primary question.
That's why I posted here, to see if there are different sizes of barrel extension from other's experience.
I've read that some fit tight and others fit loose. Bought a tool to face the receiver but it won't fit because it's made to lap a receiver with an external barrel nut. I'll have to have it machined down a few thousandths.
 
Here is something to consider. When the barrel is tightened to the receiver it is pretty much locked in place for all intents and purposes. The bolt interfaces with the barrel extension when a round is chambered.

We all want to believe that the bolt carrier group rides perfectly centered in the receiver and the barrel is also centered in the receiver. Problem is, that is in a perfect world and unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world. What works great about the AR is that the bolt does have radial movement within the carrier and this allows the barrel/barrel extension some amount of mis alignment. That also means minor mis alignment in any direction. Grab you bolt carrier group and see how much actual movement you can get while moving the bolt itself.

There are several manufactures who use this type of arrangement because it works. I think you're worried to much about this and just need to get out and shoot it more.
 
There's a lot of discussion of if it matters or not, and some very good shooters seem to fall on either side. The platform and use matter too, if you just care about getting an AR15 to 600m on steel that's less important than taking a 6.5 to 1200m or farther every tiny bit matters. From my reading it seems like most of the military teams, and other precision AR shooters are absolute NOT just slapping a barrel in that has a loose fit, tightening the nut and not worrying about it. The way I see it we spend a TON of time, money, effort etc. putting one of these guns together, better to do it and not need it, than need it and not do it. It's like bedding an action, it might gain you nothing, or it might make a difference, but it's unlikely to hurt anything unless you do it very wrong. At the end of the day, there's a reason why bolt action rifles do not have slip fit interfaces, they are threaded for a reason. The few that do use a press/slip fit are glued into place or they are very tight heat/pressure press fits.

The AR was never ever designed to be a precision platform. If a slip fit was just as good, every switch barrel bolt rifle would be using it because it's faster/easier/cheaper. If you don't think that the military armors/competition teams have not tore about every single aspect of the AR over the last few decades and do a lot of tweaks/mods that really do make a difference, you are just fooling yourself. Joe Carlos spent over a decade on the Army Reserve Marksmanship Program as both a shooter and an armor and one could do a lot worse than to listen to his videos on accuracy issues and the AR and what has worked and what has not. Those teams have spent decades trying different things just to increase accuracy tiny bits, and they have decades and millions of rounds of data to draw on. When they make suggestions on improving AR accuracy, it pays to listen. That said tolerances, and such have improved a lot over the last 2-3 decades and many times barrels already fit pretty snug at least compared to 30 years ago so the impact is even less today if you start with good parts.

The old school, cheap, fast, way was to use shim stock and one of probably 2 dozen different recommended loctite, bearing retaining compound, epoxy, rockset, gasket maker etc. like fluids depending on who you ask. It was the best option then, still works today, but I only like it if you can get a shim combo where you can basically wrap the entire extension. I never liked the idea of having the shim on just one 1/4 of the barrel etc. I wanted it to generally center the extension which meant it had to wrap 3/4 of the way around or so. In fact I'd favor a bit looser fit with a thinner shim to get it all the way around than I would a thicker shim I could only shove get 1/4 of the way around. I'll do this on a factory barrel if it's sloppy just for giggles. Brownells sells a shim stock kit that's not too expensive and contains a few thicknesses.

The more expensive, new, better way IMO is when you have your barrel made you ask them to use an oversized extension, and send them your upper receiver. The extension should be turned down to the point that it is a pretty tight press fit when the upper is heated, some are even still using some sort of loctite with that as well. I ask to have this done on ANY upper that gets a custom barrel now, it's not that expensive and having a better fit never hurts, worst case it doesn't help.

As to the question of bolt carrier tilt, it makes sense it does impact things, as the square bolt face is not square with the round in the chamber if the carrier is tilted. The bolt naturally wants to tilt down at the back you can see it easily with a bolt slid into the upper, and measure it. Match bolts are built up more in the front half of the bolt to allow for less tilt. Beyond that I've seen where some are even tapping and threading holes in the bottom rear of the carrier and putting set screws in them to force the carrier centered when at rest. The same is true of bolt fit in the carrier, some have a lot more slop in them than others. These days with parts like JP, Youngs, Baer etc. they've already done a lot to minimise carrier tilt and bolt slop by being able to reduce tolerance variation.
 
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I think the topic became an exercise in anticipating something that may or may not happen. Hey, I've done it myself, several times.

Basically, though, I now subscribe to the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it..." viewpoint.

Put it together, shoot it; then assess for issues.

Greg
 
Kinda what I'm doing now, Greg.
Put the rifle back together and starting load work up all over for the umteenth time. But this time concentrating on lower velocities for this rifle. May just be the nature of the beast?
 
Velocities are about accuracy, and about performance. I opt for lower nodes.

If I'm not getting satisfactory terminal performance, I'm shooting the wrong chambering. If I need to strain the bore's longevity to do it, that's an even worse bargain.

I've settled on .223, .260, 308, and 30-06.

...With a side helping of 7.62x39, and 7.62x54R, but those are fairly strictly for Com-Bloc Surplus rifles.

Simply put, if these rifles, in conjunction with my abilities, cannot achieve my goals, I have the wrong goals.

I cheat a little using a Savage 10FCM Scout 7.62x39, but that has a .308 bore, and as far as I'm concerned, it's more like a different chambering. I like to make believe it's a .30PPC, and handload it with Hornady 308 110gr V-Max.

I agree, the AR was never built as an accuracy platform. But my Eldest Brother Bill (11yr my senior, and a BR shooter who taught my quite a lot of what I know about shooting), made an observation once about how the way the bolt and extension locked up in a manner that may be even better than than the conventional bolt rifle. He went on to suggest that the AR was a good design being employed in a less than optimal application. As a BR shooter, he wanted to combine the action with a decent LR capable bull barrel.

We lost Bill nearly a decade ago, and he never got to try his idea. But I did, and went with a factory design, the Stag Model 6. It seems to bear out his observations, but it doesn't outshoot my factory Bull barrel guns. I still have some load development to get caught back up on, but push come to shove, I seriously doubt the Stag will be shooting screamers with any great regularity.

But for a factory rifle, it came with a 1/2MOA accuracy guarantee, and on several occasions I tried and succeeded at getting it either at, or just a smidge off, that guarantee using the factory specified factory match ammo. I used PPU 75gr HPBT Match. Shooting any rifle to such standards is not a natural act for me, and doing it with an AR is clearly not an easier option.

I liked the Stag 6 so much, I built another from the factory kit version, and the two shoot pretty much indistinguishably.

For the record, I confine my rifles to factory rifles; with factory barrels in all but one instance. Despite elitist disdain, there are just so many actually great factory rifles out there that I have chosen to confine my purchases to them. My choice, right or wrong. I will upgrade to aftermarket stocks, and have a few lesser costing optics that serve my needs well, without pauperizing me. I very seldom spend much more than a grand on any of my projects, all in all.

Greg
 
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