Night Vision Question About Clip On Night / Thermal Vision

[Longshot231]

I am still new to a lot of night and thermal vision equipment. My head is spinning on this. With that said, I would like to limit the discussion to clip on night and/or thermal vision. My preference is for getting clip on thermal vision at a future date as I really like my day scopes long range use out to 1000 yards.

Now to my question about clip on devices. I have a KRG enclosed fore-end and also their integrated night vision rail. As you can see in the photo below, the top of the picatinny base in front of the scope is higher than the bottom of the objective end of the scope. I've also had this problem with their integrated night vision rail. This problem also exists with other scope/night vision rail combos I've seen online. It's not just a KRG problem.

So here's the question. If I wanted to get a clip on unit to attach to the rail do I have to necessarily get a higher set of scope rings so that the bottom of the scope is aligned with the rail? As a follow up question; do some clip on units accommodate for the difference in height?

The second follow up question; what does everyone think of the clip on units that attach to the objective end of the scope? Thanks.

 

[wigwamitus]

... My preference is for getting clip on thermal vision at a future date as I really like my day scopes long range use out to 1000 yards ...

... do some clip on units accommodate for the difference in height ...

... what does everyone think of the clip on units that attach to the objective ...

The big problem with thermal clipons is that the day scope magnification is zooming in on the TV screen on the back on the unit.

At 320 x 240 device at 1x ... becomes a 160x120 device at 2x and you've lost 75% of your pixels ... and if pixels = resolution, then you've lost 75% of your resolution.

Realistically for most thermal clipons ... for the 320 units ... 2x is your max unfuzzy day scope magnification ... and for 640 units 4x is the max. Now really good displays and higher shooter tolerance for "fuzzy" can push these numbers up higher. But 5x to 6x is the generally agreed to maximum.

==

300yds is a long way at night and 5x to 6x is enough magnification to hit a yote inside 300yds ... beyond that ... 300yds to 500yds ... well that is a really long way.

==
Target shooting with a thermal clipon out to 900yds can be done, but only with a tiny few of the military long distance thermal clipons which all have list prices over $10k and are almost impossible to find.

So you might need to adjust your expectations. NV Clipons, with either enough illumination or some full moon can engage yotes in the open between 300yds and 500yds ... and engage targets out to 600yds with sufficient illumination.

==

Yes, the dedicated, purpose designed military clipons have risley prisms on the rear lens assembly and hence can be collimated. This allows them to support slight toleranaces of mis-alignment between the day scope and the clipon. That said, shooting with night vision or thermal clipons generally requires replacing your scope rings or mounts to get up higher. Between 1.4 and 1.5 center. And that means an according adjustment to your cheek height.

==

Clipons that attach to the objective can work. I'd had problems with them on .308WIN weapons. They come loose. But on 5.56 weapons or .22LR they work fine. But the preferred method is rail mounted.

Good questions - keep asking away !!!

 

[Longshot231]

Thanks for the information. I could think of a lot more questions to ask but it's from the perspective of "I don't know what I don't know."

So I'm not sure where to start. So I'll list a few.

#1 If you were going to use a clip on thermal imaging system what brand and model would you use for:
(a) scope attachment?
(b) rail attachment?

#2 If you were to use a thermal imaging scope that is capable of day use, what brand and model would you choose?

#3 If you were going to chose a clip on passive night vision system what brand and model would you use for:
(a) scope attachment?
(b) rail attachment?

#4 If you were to use a passive night vision scope that is capable of day use, what brand and model would you choose?

Thanks again.

 

[wigwamitus]

Well, I will start by answering #3 and #4 ... "passive night vision" ... well what meaning do we assign to these words ? Hecque if I focus on the "passive" word, I'd say THERMAL ... after all .. I AM a thermal bigot !!!

And most pure NV systems are just not capable of day operations anyway. And NV systems need to be paired with illumination in order to work over a sufficiently wide range of situations to make them useful. So they are not completely passive.

So saying "passive night vision" equals "thermal" ... means we are back to answering #1 and #2 ...

(I apologize but I'm also a mathematician and we like to simplify problems whenever possible )

==

Next, when you say "scope" ... I must assume that means "not clipon" ... right ??

==

So, now on to good ole question #1

There are two major divisions with in the group of thermal clipons ... the long distances capable models that were made for the military ... and those short distance models made for commercial sales, i.e. hunting.

I've had both flavors.

For hunting, at night, most shots are under 300yds ... within that most shots are within 200yds ... and hecque most of those are within 100yds

So at those distances you can use the critter as your reticle and hence the dedicated thermal scopes are a better solution. They have magnification on the front end, the optical end and hence that magnification does not increase the "fuzzy" of the image, like using thermal clipons does.

For taking out yotes in the 300-500yd space or for shooting heated steel out to say 900yds ... the military long distance thermal clipons are the best answer (for thermal).

In this space right now, there are three options:

01 - FLIR T75
02 - N-Vision Optics TC-50
03 - BAE UTC/UTC-x

And for the most part all of these are virtually "un-obtainium" not available.

And further the list prices of all are over $10k ... and for the UTC/UTC-x considerably over $10k

Now at SHOT in 2 weeks we might hear:

101 - Trijicon annoucing restart of manufacturing for the OASYS line (which includes the UTC-xii successor to the UTC-x)
102 - EOTECH/Insight announcing release of the LWTS-LR
103 - N-Vision-Optics announcing a new TC-50 ish clipon with an OASYS core

Or we might not hear any of those announcements. We will find out shortly. Any one of those might signal a new viability of the long distance thermal clipons ... if we will be able to buy them (they might be restricted). All this will become known or not in 2 weeks.

Me? I went with the BAE UTC-x. But it took me six months of calling around to find a dealer who had one in stock who would work with me to get approval from BAE to sell it to me. I almost gave up three times during the six months. I was eventually successful. It took two years of work bonuses and income tax returns to pay for it. The UTC-x supports 16x to 20x day scope magnification depending on conditions are tolerance for fuzzy.

==
Now for hunting out to 300yds ... the Pulsar FXQ50 thermal clipon will get the job done. I've had issues with the scope mounting method on 7.62 caliber weapons, so if it was me, I'd only use it on a 5.56 or a 22lr with the scope mount.

The SNIPE is another option. And used LWTS is another option.

These support day scope magnification of up to 4x to 6x depending on conditions and your tolerance for fuzzy.

==
ok on to question #2 ... so first ... all thermals are capable of day use. But do I use them in the day ?? No. Why? Because day optics are WAY better in the day. Very rarely I will zero a thermal scope during the day, but I usually do that at night.

I went with a trijicon Mk3 60mm for my thermal scope ...

it is a great long distance thermal spotter ... and can hit out to 300yds using the critter as the reticle.

My holds
out to 175yds I'm flat

200yds - 6 inches up
250yds - 12 inches up
300yds - 20 inches up

==

Keep asking away !!

 

[Longshot231]

Wigwamitus, thanks for the information! You're giving some good information or I should say an education.

When I said "passive" night vision I was referring to the type of non-thermal scope that doesn't require an IR illuminator. And like you said, it looks like I would be settling on thermal vision for my needs.

I never got to mess around with night vision equipment when I was in the military except for low-light camera and FLIR on the aircraft but that was a very long time ago.

With that said, forgive my ignorance.

I would be using the night vision equipment for hunting but don't want to restrict myself to short ranges under 300 yards. The longer the capability the better.

I will have to keep my eye open for what is going to be announced at SHOT.

Again, many thanks!

 

[j-huskey]

Your night vision long range options are:
An/Pvs 26
An/Pvs 27
An/Pvs 30
CNVD-LR

Wigwamitus has the particulars for them closer at hand than most of us.

I've used the first 3. And with a M24-300win mag, and M3a 10x scope, hit 800 meter silhouettes on a full moon light night, with those 3.

Again, I defer to WW on specs, and i strongly agree with his earlier post.

Those units are expensive and heavy unless you bought one of the KAC reconditioned pvs30's for around 4500, then it wasnt quite as expensive.

 

[Will Fennell]

wigwamtimus,
I'm also researching thermal NV for hogs and coyotes. Here in the Carolinas, most shots will be well within 200 yards for my needs, so your description is giving me plenty of good information. 2 questions if you don't mind....

First, you mention 'using the critter as the reticle'.....on face value, that seems confusing to me, as I would assume you would use the reticle in the thermal sight, or am I totally missing something?

Second, I initially thought I would want a clip on system infront of my day optic, but it seems like you preferred a dedicated sight. Well, building a second upper for my AR wouldn't be the worst thing.....so I assume you think having a dedicated gun/upper for the thermal sight would be the most effective way to go? Am planning to use this on either a 5.56 or 6.8 AR upper for hogs and or coyotes.

TIA,

Will

 

[wigwamitus]

@Will Fennell

01 - Critter as the reticle .
I guess I thought this was normal in hunting. You have a dot or a duplex cross hair ... you use the size of the critter as your base line and hold up based on that ...
Reticles in most of the thermals are simple reticles ... like a dot or a cross hair ... no subtensions for holding. They are hunting reticles. The magnification on most of the thermal scopes is too low to be able to see subtensions like you see in long distance day optics anyway.

02 - Thermal clipons
Well, the problem with thermal clipons is you are zooming in on the TV screen. So a 640x480 becomes a 320x240 on 2x and you've lost 75% of your pixels. And if pixels = resolution, then you lost 75% of your resolution ... and that is on 2x. You loss another 75% for every 2x after that. So 4x is about the max possible day scope magnification for the lower end thermal clipons ... the higher end military clipons all list for over $10k ... including the newly announced LWTS-LR ... just announced at SHOT. So, if you can swing around $20k for a thermal clipon, then head North and we can try to help you get into an LWTS-LR ... or if 4x is enough magnification then we can get you into a low end clipon ...
But otherwise, for 97% of hunters, I recommend the dedicated scope route as that gets your the best image for the lowest cost. Your optical magnification will be on the front end and will not reduce your image quality ... so you can get any where from 1.6x with the Trail XP50 ... or 4.5x with the Trijicon 60mm units.

 

[c1steve]

What about using thermal for spotting the prey, but having NV clip on or dedicated NV on the rifle? Would this give you best of both systems, including the best clarity when taking the shot?

 

[wigwamitus]

There are those who believe so. I am not among them. For me, if I can't see the critter, I don't need a clearer image ... and for me ... I actually think my images are clearer with the UTC-x ... 634yds on 7x ...

"image clarity" might be able to be measured scientifically, but I think most of what gets said about it is "eye of the beholder" ...

==
Now there are times with NV is great ... like in snow ... the luminosity of the snow really lights things up like day time ...
And if you need to see through glass, well NV can do that and thermal cannot ...

In "washout" coditions like after a day of heavy rain ... or an ice storm ... thermal sees a sea of grey ... the critter still stand out, but the terrain is harder to see ... so orientation is tougher and judging distance by landmarks is tougher ... so NV can be better in those circumstances ...

But I live around a lot of woods and NV cannot see into or through my woods ... and the predators around me move around in the woods a lot ... so I have to have thermal.

 

[king1886ranch]

I hope I can get y'all talking again! What would the best option be for a clip-on NV to be pair with a NF SHV 5-20x56? Say 4k and under? Go easy on me, I don't know anything about NV!

 

[wigwamitus]

Well, for that price and magnification ... thermal clipon is pretty much out of the picture .. the pulsar FXQ clipon tops out at 5x on the day scope ... now at night 5x is a LOT of magnification ... may too much ... but if you were hoping to crank that 5-25x up off the 5x ... that wouldn't work too well with the FXQ50.

So, the PVS-30 refurbs are running around $4,500 average ... they are big and heavy, so you'd better be shooting off a solid tripod (not a shooting stick).
The big gaggle of PVS9/9A SIMRADs that were going around for a while seem to have dried up ... but you'll see one for sale now and then. Those have been going for between around $1,200 and up to around $2,200 ... and have a great Gen3 image.

That's about it for the "good stuff" in your price range. the PVS-30 ... and support up to around 16x ... the PVS-9 the same ... the slightly smaller PVS-9a is 12x.

Here's a PVS9a SIMRAD (kn253) on a stoner style 6.5G(18) with a radius LRF ...

 

[wigwamitus]

And here's a 5.56(18) with a PVS-30 in front and a radius on top ...

The Luna ELIR-3 Illuminator is visible on the 3 o'clock

 

[PlinkIt]

I hope I can get y'all talking again! What would the best option be for a clip-on NV to be pair with a NF SHV 5-20x56? Say 4k and under? Go easy on me, I don't know anything about NV!

Well, for that price and magnification ... thermal clipon is pretty much out of the picture .. the pulsar FXQ clipon tops out at 5x on the day scope ... now at night 5x is a LOT of magnification ... may too much ... but if you were hoping to crank that 5-25x up off the 5x ... that wouldn't work too well with the FXQ50.

I think wig nailed the answer here, but I will ask king why not consider dropping to a lower mag scope if your hunting will allow it? For example, it's so wooded in my area that I rarely get a chance to shoot over 200 yard shot so I'm happier with a 2-10 as I get more bottom end FOV and it works pretty well with the FXQ50.

Even a 1-6 AR type optic works well with it if you have one already, but will require a pic mount as the pulsar objective mounts won't attach to the small objective bell.

It's been my personal finding that you don't want to use the objective bell mounting anyway... And may be much happier using a pic rail attachment for the FXQ50. MUCH more solid in my example at least.

 

[wigwamitus]

Aye, plinkit's point, which I agree with, is that a 5-25x is not the first scope I would think of to use for night hunting. Hecque, I've gotten about half the critters I've controlled within 150yds of my chicken coop with a 1x thermal. At close range, FOV is king.
Now this last winter, I used a NF 7-35x T3 and got 2 yotes and just short of 2 dozen several coons and opossum with it ... but it was tough to get used to ... my 360s took 3 times longer because I had to triple scan on the way around, I had to little FOV.
Most of my night clipon hunting has been with scopes with a 3x on the bottom and they sat on 3x. Rarely would I crank up to 6x for shot placement. Rarely, because there is usually no time. So this winter, the other yotes, coons and opossum were gotten with with 6.5G(18) with a L&S 3-18x T3 or a trijicon mk3 60mm 4.5x dedicated thermal.

 

[king1886ranch]

I think wig nailed the answer here, but I will ask king why not consider dropping to a lower mag scope if your hunting will allow it? For example, it's so wooded in my area that I rarely get a chance to shoot over 200 yard shot so I'm happier with a 2-10 as I get more bottom end FOV and it works pretty well with the FXQ50.

Even a 1-6 AR type optic works well with it if you have one already, but will require a pic mount as the pulsar objective mounts won't attach to the small objective bell.

It's been my personal finding that you don't want to use the objective bell mounting anyway... And may be much happier using a pic rail attachment for the FXQ50. MUCH more solid in my example at least.

Not my rig getting setup, it's not what I would put on either but that's what my customer wants. He's putting it on an existing rifle.

 

[wigwamitus]

... He's putting it on an existing rifle ...

Haha, all my rifles are "existing" as well, but I swap out the scopes as needed for the purpose.

 

[Medic650]

In addition to zooming on a TV screen, my Apollo was very sensitive to alignment with the day optic. If i moved between rifles I would have to adjust screen position to image on the thermal hitting with POI of day optic. Any clip on will need to have a good mount that will return to zero if you want to be able to remove and re-install it. I haven’t had much luck with my Apollo so I’m looking at going a regular thermal scope and a dedicated rifle.

 

[wigwamitus]

I didn't know years ago, but subsequently, I've read that the Apollo Pros do have collimating prisms on the back. If this is true and if the prisms are actually collimated on a collimated table. then if the day scope and clipon center heights are aligned WITHIN TOLERANCE ... then the clipon should not require any adjustments. For instance, the PVS-30 and the UTC-x do not require any adjustments. Hecque neither of them even HAVE any adjustments. Mount and shoot and you are dead out ... out to 900yds anyway, as far as I've tried.

But perhaps the Apollo Pros are not all correctly collimated ? Perhaps yours was not? I recall you were working hard to match your center heights, but I don't recall how close your got. But within a 10th of an inch should do it. And maybe 2 tenths of an inch. The PVS-30 can definitely do 2/10ths ... the UTC starts to be off around 2.2 tenths.

If the day scope optics mounts are changed so they match the clipon tolerances ... and the clipon mount can take the recoil of the platforms it will be on ... it is a "good" mount and you should be able to move it around from rifle to rifle like the PVS-30s and UTCs. But otherwise, if the clipon's prisms are not collimated, or the clipon has no prisms (i.e. not really a clipon) then you will have to make adjustments.

I was hoping that the Apollo Pros would work, since I now believe they have the prisms, but your story is not encoraging.

 

[Medic650]

I have gotten a couple scope mounts with a 1.57” axis that matches specs for my Apollo axis. Got new mount that’s made by ADM. it seems more solid. No more movement of the image when manipulating menus buttons and themal reticle seems to stay aligned with day optic after removing and reinstalling Apollo. Hope to try it out tomorrow night. Maybe my problem has been my mount.