Hello all. I have been reading quite about about the 2 main contenders (Autotrickler V4 and Supertrickler). I currently load for multiple calibers and build my loads to 0.1gr charges. Once a load is developed, I run loading sessions typically 100-200 per batch. I am using 2 chargemasters at the same time. I realize many want better than 0.1gr accuracy, but I am content with the ES/SD I achieve with my loads and typically get less than 10 SD for any developed load. My question is this: Can I get one of the higher end tricklers and get more speed than my 2 chargemasters? I do have frequent overthrows and know this is to be expected and I deal with that accordingly to maintain 0.1gr accuracy. I am more than willing to go down the higher end road if it can further speed up my ammo production. If it just about the accuracy improvement in delivery of charges, fair enough but curious for thoughts on the subject.
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Question about higher end trickler systems vs Chargemasters
- Thread starter Dog Doc
- Start date
I would stay away from both . I’ve had them and hate the over throws and other issues with both. Look for a Autotrickler V3 and switch the trickler out with the ingenuity trickler or just wait for the complete ingenuity setup to come out. Not sure when that will actually happen.
I have been loading with a chargemaster since I started loading. It has worked well for me but damn I feels it’s slow now. Used to not worry about it but the more I reload the faster I want to do it.
I too wonder about my reloading process to see what the difference will be with a better powder system. I can usually get loads to 8-10 SD constantly with the occasional 5-6 but not consistent.
I have shot many 1/2 mos groups but few .2-.3’s and wonder if powder charge is part of the reason.
I too wonder about my reloading process to see what the difference will be with a better powder system. I can usually get loads to 8-10 SD constantly with the occasional 5-6 but not consistent.
I have shot many 1/2 mos groups but few .2-.3’s and wonder if powder charge is part of the reason.
So I am just curious. When you are talking overthrows, are you talking about numbers taking you out of the 0.01gr area or something so bad to take you out of a 0.1gr area? I have read everything about the IP trickler but the updates seem to have stalled, and I bet there are many pre-orders that will make in unobtainable for some time...even if it is ever released.
When my CM over throws it’s usually .1-.3 with loading H4350.
I used to dump the charge and make it re do it but now I just pinch kernels out until it reaches target weight.
if you are looking for speed yes it throws out of that range quite often in my experience.
Yes the whole complete IG set up has stalled. But you can purchase the IG trickler by itself to add on to a V3 setup and is very consistent.
Though I have a ChargeMaster 1500, I just don't use it and just using a Lee Powder Measure and trickle up on an FX-120i. I find it's just as fast as using the CM1500 with more accurate and consistent loads. Since I already have the FX-120i, I thought about just getting the Ingenuity trickler, which would make trickling faster and just as accurate. Instead, I decided to splurge and ordered the Powder System - less the scale. I don't think the Ingenuity Powder System is really going to be faster than dropping with the Lee powder thrower + Ingenuity trickler, but it just might be a little more convenient.
Same here. I have found that removing 2 kernels for 0.1gr and 4 kernels for 0.2gr is spot on most all the time with H4350! Still slows the process but running 2 CM I can do about 110-120 per hour which includes seating. Just loading for so many calibers now anything to speed the process is welcomed. Brass prep is what it is and a process for sure.
I agree. I have an RCBS thrower on mine. But I motorized it. I do occasionally unplug on some ball powders because it likes to hang up and it is still very fast. I have never used the Lee on mine. But the new system once out will be very convenient.
So I am just curious, using your process how many loads do you think you can charge and seat per hour? I have also researched all that you have mentioned as different alternatives. Anything is a consideration for sure.
When they talk about overthrowe with the Autotricler, it is 0.02gr over with 0.04gr over very rarely. Well setup V4 does 3-4 charges a minute. I cannot carefully seat bullets faster than what it throws.
That was definitely not my experience with the V4. .04 was almost every few rounds and became aggravating to me then trying to find the correct tilt it wasn’t worth it personally to me.
Interesting information for sure! I'm sure you have read about them but I recently switched to some matchmaster dies as that was all that was available at the time for my 6GT. I love the "window" so much for seating that I now get the seating die for other calibers. Crazy how fast I can seat 50 round blocks. Similar work flow as my Dillon 550.
Do you know why so many like the V3 over the V4? I'm sure I can search here but since it relates to you comment I thought I would ask.
First, I'll point out that I don't load 100-200 at a time or use 2 ChargeMasters. Two units like that would certainly be much faster. I typically load 50-100 and to charge AND seat, I estimate it's ~75 and hr (though I've never really timed myself and never really do it in much of a hurry). I do think using the Ingenuity trickler would speed that up. Now if I had 2 Ingenuity Powder Systems, they'd throw and weigh faster than I can seat. Even one of them might do so too?
I realize many are going for accuracy of charge vs speed and I totally respect that. After load development for me it just seems I am trying to find way to spend less time reloading as I am shooting 3 times a week at times and it is hard to keep up lol!First, I'll point out that I don't load 100-200 at a time or use 2 ChargeMasters. Two units like that would certainly be much faster. I typically load 50-100 and to charge AND seat, I estimate it's ~75 and hr (though I've never really timed myself and never really do it in much of a hurry). I do think using the Ingenuity trickler would speed that up. Now if I had 2 Ingenuity Powder Systems, they'd throw and weigh faster than I can seat. Even one of them might do so too?
Are you shooting more than one caliber during the week?
As for your original question, I doubt that a single "higher end trickler" can get you faster the your two ChargeMasters. Two higher end tricklers on a scale like the FX would certainly do so and improve your SD's too. . . but that's $$$$$!
Yeah, I shoot multiple calibers per week. Anything from 2.23/5.56 (not reloading for currently), .308, 6.5Creed, 6.5 PRC and 6GT at the moment. It has become hard to keep up. I am not against 2 of anything if I can spend less time loading and more time shooting...or fishing lol. But at the moment I suppose the loading process is just time consuming with the multiple stages of brass prep being the worst. I suppose the actual charge/load is the fastest of all. Just don't see how I can process brass any faster based on my current setup. I feel like I have it streamlined as possible.
Yeah, that's a lot of different brass prep. For the most part, that's why I only reload for just 2 calibers. The rest, I just buy factory ammo.
Unless you are loading on a progressive press, running two Autotricklers/Supertricklers/IP Tricklers won't speed up the loading. The bottleneck is seating the bullet and placing the completed round in the ammo box.
I have used a 1500 for at least ten years and have been satisfied with it. Last fall I had to purchase a new backup scale and bought a low cost Gem 20 scale that displays to 0.02 gr. As part of checking it out I ran some precision tests and found it to be quite good and ran some test on the 1500 which is programmed for the powder and using a 243 case shoulder and neck (similar to straw mod) as a bushing. After doing that test and thinking about it I decided to load up powder measure and a little RCBS trickler and started loading a few rounds with the Gem 20. It's actually quicker. I could make the 1500 faster but then the charge weights will very more.
The benefit of the higher end powder systems is in the trickler. Any single "spout" system is a compromise built to try and provide rapid dumping to a point and then fine resolution when trickling. Also the higher end scales are more responsive than typical strain gage so that allows them to load faster. I think about the fastest out there is the Super Trickler and it probably drops a charge in about 10 seconds. About the fastest I could get the 1500 with the mods was about +/- 20 seconds without getting frequent overthrows.
After going through this little exercise it seemed to me that having something to do with my hands made the process seem more enjoyable than sitting there waiting on the machine!
I have a MatchMaster. It was reasonably priced after vet discount and I’m happy with it.
It’s very accurate but won’t solve the OPs speed issue.
I looked at ATv4 and SP and decided to wait and see if Ingenuity ever comes out (I think it will but when is another story). I signed up for his no cost preorder.
It’s very accurate but won’t solve the OPs speed issue.
I looked at ATv4 and SP and decided to wait and see if Ingenuity ever comes out (I think it will but when is another story). I signed up for his no cost preorder.
I honestly thought about doing the same with the Matchmaster and wait for the IP. I get new product releases never being on time. A buddy has a Matchmaster he will let me try out which may not be a bad thing to try. So have you used your Matchmaster in "speed mode" or whatever its callled? How does it do loading to 0.1gr accuracy if you have loaded on the faster option?
I only operate it in Match mode. Speed is not my concern. Accuracy is.
On Match mode it measures to the second decimal place. Some drops are .01-.02 over under but generally that’s it.
Fair enough. I realize precision mode is what all of these tricklers are about. I am simply trying to see if I can get a speed jump over my current process as much as I am shooting now.
The v4 needs adjusting with shims to get the tilt perfect then adjust the speeds with the app when you change powders. The v3 just requires you to screw the thrower adjustment knob in and out.
Ingenuity literally drops single grains/sticks... If it underthows (rare), you "click" the trikler...and it drops...single sticks...IMHO this thing is insane. Assume you get like overthorows maybe 2-3 time per hour, you lose maybe 1 minute (3x 20 secs/hour).
The IP is ultimately going to be the most predictable system (of existing ones), regardless of how fast it "actually" is, it will always be a macro-faster/simpler process. This lets you optimze in your workflow in other places besides the final bit of ±.02 grains on powder throw...
The iP, even when it makes a mistake, causes no real issues...becuase the next one will be good...the main problem with tube tricklers is getting clump+dump (static cling)... which happens in spurts... and which makes you lose not only time but confidence in whats going on (i always end up double checking stuff).
Also, beyond tricklers, if you are at that stage, I would really look at doubles and triples of basic gear so you never need to futz with all the caliber/geometry etc variations you are dealing with. If you skip a new thrower, that kind of money can buy you alot of duplicate dies/presses/primer tools etc you can keep pre-setup to your specs...and that will keep you from wasting ALOT of time futzing with settings etc.
If you already have all that sorted, you really are at the final frontier LOL.
The IP is ultimately going to be the most predictable system (of existing ones), regardless of how fast it "actually" is, it will always be a macro-faster/simpler process. This lets you optimze in your workflow in other places besides the final bit of ±.02 grains on powder throw...
The iP, even when it makes a mistake, causes no real issues...becuase the next one will be good...the main problem with tube tricklers is getting clump+dump (static cling)... which happens in spurts... and which makes you lose not only time but confidence in whats going on (i always end up double checking stuff).
Also, beyond tricklers, if you are at that stage, I would really look at doubles and triples of basic gear so you never need to futz with all the caliber/geometry etc variations you are dealing with. If you skip a new thrower, that kind of money can buy you alot of duplicate dies/presses/primer tools etc you can keep pre-setup to your specs...and that will keep you from wasting ALOT of time futzing with settings etc.
If you already have all that sorted, you really are at the final frontier LOL.
The operating principals behind the IP trickler just make far more sense than all the other alternatives. It looks like it will be a real step forward. If things go as well as hoped I will also probably sell my AT4 and get one. We will see.
Thank you and all the others for all the valuable information! I suppose it is all a process and speeding up anything with all you discussed are things I am on the track of. I do things in bulk and have things ready between all of the stages (cleaning, annealing every time, sizing, Giraud trim/chamfer/debur, prime, charge, seat) and for all calibers I shoot regularly. It just seems that once a load is developed mass reloading is about trying to perfect speeding it up so I can shoot more and train more. I do wonder though.... all that focus on 0.01-0.02gr accuracy in charges, what is the ES/SD people typically get going to this level? At 0.1gr increments and less than 10 SD (typically averaging between 7-9), how much benefit is it? I am not shooting F-class, just PRS style shooting. Regarding IP, I have been following this closely and really hope it comes out soon and will be available at some point.
I loaded 150 rounds yesterday with my v4 and had 3 that were .1 or less over. I set my target at .02+/- and it is pretty solid. I dis shim it to work well.....but I am 100% happy with it.
Same. My v4 was a nightmare. Switched to supertrickler which has its own issues but having 2 machines makes it faster.
My Matchmaster is 22 seconds for 42.5g of Varget. That leaves me 8-10 seconds to not breath in its general direction after seating a bullet. It don’t like that. I only use it in match mode and it is plenty accurate for my needs. I loaded 106 rounds yesterday with 5 overthrows. All 5 were .06 over. It can be custom tuned faster but I haven’t messed with that. No wi-fi in the shop and the damn display might as well be in Arabic. I hear it’s much easier on the phone if you can get a connection.
has anyone figured out a way to automate trickling from a secondary device (ingenuity or other) in conjunction with the chargemaster 1500?
I was wondering this same thing! Either chargemaster or even a manual drop and IP trickler or any other trickler. I suspect that could be a very fast system and accurate.
No, and it wouldn't make a difference if you could. The scale used in the chargemaster and match master are both strain-gauge based and have a response-rate that is too slow to be of any advantage. The whole reason why the AT, ST and IP trickler can work so well is that the FX120i is one of the first low-cost magnetic restoration balances available to us plebs.
I didnt think of that. I wonder if I used my rcbs powder drop thats still in the box for 20+ years, to get close, and then finish it on the scale.
Ah....its Bluetooth which is a direct connection between devices and not wifi, right?
Yes, Bluetooth is direct device to device wireless protocol that does not use WiFi.
Well, yes....but I was responding to the fella who said he couldn't connect because his shop didn't have wifi which seems to be not relevant with MatchMaster and its app, right?
It might be worth checking to see if there is a new version of the app used to control the scale available. Sometimes I have to power cycle my ATv4 to get the Bluetooth to sync with my phone so that might be worth trying as well.
It is an interesting concept. Get the FX 120i for scale, manual drop for bulk drop and IP trickler to finish a charge.
Funny you should mention that...
Do some research on the Autotricler starting from the original and it's evolution to the V2 and V3. Also check out the original IP trickler.
I didn't have huge issues with the V4, but I hate the supertrickler with a passion. Worst piece of reloading equipment I've bought in recent years.
V4 over the Supertrickler without a doubt.
I'm currently using a V3 with a Ingenuity Precision Trickler. The speed and consistency is very nice
V4 over the Supertrickler without a doubt.
I'm currently using a V3 with a Ingenuity Precision Trickler. The speed and consistency is very nice
