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Question about higher end trickler systems vs Chargemasters
- Thread starter Dog Doc
- Start date
So to add another question to the mix. What about 2 RCBS Matchmasters running together? Compared to the others with a discount it would be about the same cost wise as the AT V4.
I wouldn’t pay for a RCBS Matchmaster. At the end of the day it is an overpriced stain gauge scale.
Unless you qualify for the LEO/Mil discount… then it’s a pretty good deal.
That said, there’s the Ingenuity Precision and then everything else… it crushes everything else available. I do my bulk drop manually and the IP trickler takes care of the rest, 100rds takes ~10mins, every single one to the kernel/flake, almost never overthrows (and if it does, it’s by 0.02gn).
The way I look at it. . .
In order to get good speed one needs three things:
1. A scale that's fast, accurate and consistent
2. Something that throws the powder quickly and close to desired charge
3. A trickler that's fast at dispensing just the right amount of granules to the desired charge
1 and 2 is easy to obtain. It's #3 that's difficult to achieve. From what all I've been able to gather, the Ingenuity Powder Meter is the best at meeting #3 when coupled with the likes of an FX-120i and all you really need for #2 is a good powder thrower.
Getting it all automated helps speed up the reloading process, but at a price. There's been different systems trying to get the best combination of those 3 elements to suit the market: like the ChargeMaster, (Frankford Arsenal, Lyman, Hornady) CM copy cats, Prometheus, SuperTrickler, AutoTrickler, and now the Ingenuity Powder System. Each has their benefits and issues, but it seems the Ingenuity may have come up that a good powder dispensing design as their trickler has been well tested and key with other systems like the Prometheus and even with some AutoTrickler setups. We'll see if it'll meet expectations when it gets to market.
In order to get good speed one needs three things:
1. A scale that's fast, accurate and consistent
2. Something that throws the powder quickly and close to desired charge
3. A trickler that's fast at dispensing just the right amount of granules to the desired charge
1 and 2 is easy to obtain. It's #3 that's difficult to achieve. From what all I've been able to gather, the Ingenuity Powder Meter is the best at meeting #3 when coupled with the likes of an FX-120i and all you really need for #2 is a good powder thrower.
Getting it all automated helps speed up the reloading process, but at a price. There's been different systems trying to get the best combination of those 3 elements to suit the market: like the ChargeMaster, (Frankford Arsenal, Lyman, Hornady) CM copy cats, Prometheus, SuperTrickler, AutoTrickler, and now the Ingenuity Powder System. Each has their benefits and issues, but it seems the Ingenuity may have come up that a good powder dispensing design as their trickler has been well tested and key with other systems like the Prometheus and even with some AutoTrickler setups. We'll see if it'll meet expectations when it gets to market.
Are you actually running that fast or is there a little BSing going on? Because if your actually seeing those kinds of speeds consistantly your between two and three times as fast as a ATv4.
I need to know, but at the same time I think I can hear my wallet beginning to cry in the other room...
My autothrow v3 with the IP trickler runs one 40 gn charge every 10-12 seconds, although I haven't played the slider game so you could probably get it a bit faster if you're willing to have an overthrow here or there.
12 seconds is about the time that it takes me to replace the cup, pop a bullet on the case, seat, and place it in the 'finished' bin. It fits my leisurely workflow.
My ATv4 runs about 15 to 20 for 40ish grains of H4350. I'm mostly happy with that but 8-10 seconds for the same throw from an IP would be real tempting.
The fact I hardly ever reject any charges (very seldom overthrows ,04 and never underthrows) is why I swapped. That alone saved minutes of my time and frustration (vs the V3 trickler) per session.
I impulse bought the IP... after I had poo-poo'd the $300 upgrade when it first came out. Then I had a really poor session with the v3 including a string of six overthrows, of .2 or more, in a row and I got on the IP wait list. I was wrong, my time was worth the money.
Your machine is likely not dialed in right - my V4 runs 8 - 12 seconds for every powder we use without issue
There is lots posted on how to set up a V4. Short version - run the calibration and check the small tube flow. If it is .17 or lower than you need to tilt (shim) the unit from the back. You should be as close to .2 or .21 as possible then you can play with the rest of the settings to dial it in. The system was designed to run 10 second throws with H4350 and Varget
When you run to scales together like that, each scale has some drift of zero unless you re-zero each time. I did it for a long time and I think it added unwanted variability to my charges. I would never do it again.
One good thing about the super trick, is that the software re-zero’d the scale each time you put the cup back on. That is consistent with the scale manufacturer instructions. And I think it is key for these electronic scales that have inherent drift in them.
Also, I know some of you guys like to seat bullets while the next charges dropping. Honestly, it increases the diligence needed to maintain my attention to various different things going on at once and ideally, I would like one that drops so fast, that I don’t have time to do anything between charges, except for move the funnel, and perhaps set a bullet on top of the last case. Then I can focus all of my attention, without rushing, lining up the bullet and seating one after another in single stage of the entire operation.
Mixing up the different stages of the entire process makes me more prone to spacing out and making an error like double charging a case and having to dump it out because I failed to move the funnel while I was seating, a bullet and the last charge was dropping
Mixing up the different stages of the entire process makes me more prone to spacing out and making an error like double charging a case and having to dump it out because I failed to move the funnel while I was seating, a bullet and the last charge was dropping
Can you explain your manual drop method? Because your process may be something to consider for me. I also wonder If I got the FX scale and IP trickler, do they "communicate" to stop at the designated charge? I am envisioning something like a manual drop, let the IP finalize, fill case and drop another as soon as the case is charged.
This is interesting to me as my old chargemasters do not drift when I run them together. Maybe they are not accurate enough to see the drift.
That's what I was going to do and had the IP trickler ordered to go with the FX I already had. When I heard about IP's whole system, it took me a while to decide to splurge and get it. As I think I mentioned before, I don't think the whole system is going to make much difference from what I planned by just manually throwing and IP trickling up. That's why I see it as a "splurge" for perhaps a little more convenience.
To your question. . . yes, the IP trickler "communicates" with the FX via a serial port and does a great job of stopping at the designated charge. Nothing's perfect, but this trickler is damn good! Though you have to use the right disks in it for the particular powder being used (a minor set up issue when changing to some powders with significantly different size granules).
You use the Auto Trickler V3 electronics (~$60 IIRC) and voila.
Specifically:
AT V3 electronics (card for FX120i)
1 AT motor (for trickler)
AT V3 motor cable
AT V3 power adapter
AT App
Powder cup
I loaded 100 rounds with my AT V4 yesterday, 12th, using A2495 and had precisely 1 overthrow. 1 single charge. The AutoTrickler V4 works just fine when calibrated according to Adam's instructions. No shims needed either.
The Lyman powder measure is great, most of their Brass Smith line is solid IME. I load and have loaded every single one of my precision rounds for the last 3-4 years on their itty bitty ~$100 Ideal press and wouldn't trade it for all the fancy Zero presses in the world.
This looks truly amazing! So will IP sell all those things listed separate for the trickler? I am confused about the AT V3 electronics if you are using a manual drop. Is this not included with the trickler purchase?
V3 Electronics
V3 Electronics are compatible with all versions of AutoTrickler for A&D scales. Functionally these electronics are exactly the same as V1 and V2 electronics except that you can also use the AutoTrickler app on your mobile phone / tablet to set the target weight and control the AutoTrickler much...
autotrickler.com
So was this complicated to get set up and running? Why do you need the V3 stuff if you are manually dropping? Why wouldn't it just be the trickler software?No it is not and the electronics is from an auto trickler v3V3 Electronics
V3 Electronics are compatible with all versions of AutoTrickler for A&D scales. Functionally these electronics are exactly the same as V1 and V2 electronics except that you can also use the AutoTrickler app on your mobile phone / tablet to set the target weight and control the AutoTrickler much...
You get the scale from whomever you want (I can recommend CE Products and I think they're the cheapest), the trickler from Ingenuity Precision (they call it a "powder measure"), and the other stuff from www.autotrickler.com.
The V3 interface is what allows the ingenuity trickler to communicate with the scale. Did you watch his video?
You program the scale per Auto Trickler's V3 instructions which normally would be connected to the AT V3's bulk dropper and the AT V3's trickler... the Ingenuity trickler replaces the inferior V3 trickler, and instead of the V3's bulk dropper, you connect nothing, and you are the monkey who lifts the handle.
I honestly love how bonehead simple and trouble-free it is doing the bulk drop manually, so I may never upgrade to Ingenuity's bulk dropper that's due at some point (kidding, of course I will, but I don't have to).
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When I first got my Fx120i I did manual throw then finished with a vibratory trickler going into funnel in lid of scale. It was not super fast but better than my lyman gen 3 lol.
It's that fast (close anyway), but I was speaking figuratively.
I'd guess it's 7 seconds a drop on average (some faster, some slower), 7 x 100 = 700/60 = 11.66mins (literally).
There's no "warm up", fill the powder measure, throw a few bulk drops in the IP hopper, go, dump them back in the powder jug at the end, done. The first drop is as accurate and as fast as the last, and it virtually never fucks up. Instead of torture, makes dropping powder damn near soothing.
The full Ingenuity Precision rig (their crazy/genius gravity bulk dropper + trickler) will be shipping soon. Say hello to the new standard by which everything else will be judged. "Garmin Xero of badass powder droppers" lol.
www.snipershide.com
Ingenuity Precision trickler
When I checked in early May for a release timeframe I was told July. Checked again yesterday and was told late August…🤔
www.snipershide.com
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To be fair, if you include the time for bulk throw to finish it is 9-10 seconds. Still super fast.
Yes and no. It depends on the powder.
The video I posted above was with Sta-Ball (flake/ball powder) and before playing with the slider a bit to let it run a little quicker... weirdly, it's faster with stick stuff like Varget/SWPR (the same stuff that nearly drove me to smash my old MatchMaster lol).
...and, if you have 2 cups that weigh the same (easily accomplished with a little sanding), one can cut the total time in half since it's finishing one while you're dumping one... ;-)
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