Suppressors Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

[Graham]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You would be absolutely amazed at the resistance I am getting to that very idea.</div></div>Nothing about Government work amazes me.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still getting over the fact that he found a Glock accurate enough to shoot 3-4" groups at 25 yards.</div></div>

Want to shoot Arnson plates at 100 yards for Scotch? I've got stock Glock triggers.

 

[Graham]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still getting over the fact that he found a Glock accurate enough to shoot 3-4" groups at 25 yards.</div></div>Want to shoot Arnson plates at 100 yards for Scotch?

</div></div>For score divided by time, I will. But is that before or after we drink the Scotch?

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still getting over the fact that he found a Glock accurate enough to shoot 3-4" groups at 25 yards.</div></div>

Want to shoot Arnson plates at 100 yards for Scotch? I've got stock Glock triggers.

</div></div>

I'm in on that, "100 yard Scotch Shoot" could be fun. 3.5" barrels only though, make it a challenge

 

[Downzero]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Your finger should not be on the trigger unless the facts and circumstannces indicate that deadly force is necessary. </div></div>

Correction: a gun shouldn't even be in your hand at all unless the facts and circumstances strongly suggest that deadly force is presently necessary, or will be in the VERY near future.

The safest place for your gun is in its holster.

 

[Schlafftablett]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Schlafftablett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That said, I get SOOOO tired of hearing guys tell me about how much better they shoot with a 1911 than a Glock or a M9. PLEASE! I'm the armorer and range master and I see how they shoot and how they take care of their guns. </div></div>

The M9 is probably not the best example of the point you're trying to make. Hard for anyone with a small hand to maintain a proper firing grip and reach the trigger at the same time. lol---</div></div>

Again though, to me a person with small hands shooting a 92 is analogous to me shooting a Desert Eagle. Is it big and clunky? Hell yeah! Can I shoot it accurately? Hell yeah! While I see your point as well, I really don’t' think a M9 puts my argument too far out of the realm.

As far as the 1911 being an expert’s gun and the point that it served for 70+ years without being known as a maintenance hog; well you're really talking 2 different animals. The military 1911's were generally rattle traps and while certainly capable of acceptable accuracy, I've not seen many that would markedly out perform a M9 or a Glock. By the time they were phased out most had been in service for 40+ years (I’d heard that the last major delivery of 1911’s was in 1947). The 1911 that most of the CCW and high speed "operators" use is the Ferrari compared to the VW. The simple fact of the matter is that while a 1944 Ithaca might run for 10-20k rounds with no or minimal cleaning and maintenance, a TRP Operator, Kimber LAPD, or MARSOC gun probably won't. They are built tighter to get the accuracy out of them; while certainly not race guns they still need a higher level of care to keep them running at peak performance.

Oh, and FYI DoS uses 5.5 triggers in Glocks and I believe the FBI does as well although I'm not 100% on that one.

 

[nw911guy]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Case in point, I had a female sergeant bring in her personal G27 for in-service, when she dissassembled it, the internals were completely blue. Yes blue, she would carry it during UC work in her back pocket, and the gun was completely dry and caked in blue denim lint from her jeans. A years worth of lint, since by her own admission, she hadn't cleaned it since she qualified the previous year. It fired flawlessly.</div></div>

When I was managing the firing range, I had a customer bring in his personal Glock (the model # escapes my memory) and ask if I could put it in the ultra-sonic cleaner for him. I looked at it briefly and said, "sir, your gun appears new, just lube it and shoot it." He was adamant and couldn't manage to look me in the eyes. I couldn't figure out what he was thinking and then I figured it out. He had lubed the gun.............with baby oil. Lol I suspect it would have run, but I'll never forget it.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The above pistol has been my personal test gun, it has 30,000 rounds through it, and still shoots 3-4" groups at 25 yards. Though recomended part replacements could be done, it doesn't need it. </div></div>

Hmm software must be loose. Should shoot better than that

Seriously though, I've regularly seen them capable of sub 3 inch groups and usually around 2". I've also seen stock G34s shoot under an inch at 20yds. I may not be a Glock fan, but I will be the first to say they are typically quite accurate for a handgun.

 

[Graham]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Your finger should not be on the trigger unless the facts and circumstannces indicate that deadly force is necessary. </div></div>Correction: a gun shouldn't even be in your hand at all unless the facts and circumstances strongly suggest that deadly force is presently necessary, or will be in the VERY near future.The safest place for your gun is in its holster. </div></div>Did you make that up? Because I have never seen that in the policy of any department, and for obvious reasons, including the need for inspection and maintenance (which is when most ADs happen and why many adminisitrators argue for heavier triggers).

 

[socalsheepdog]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob Opp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Choose the handgun that fits you best.
Rob Opp </div></div>

I agree with this and it speaks to those who are "into" firearms and who have taken the time to figure out what's best for them. The problem in LE is that, disturbingly, most cops are not that interested in "GUNS". When I signed up, I was excited to be a part of a community who liked firearms. I was sad to learn that not that many are. For this reason the Glock is the best choice for them in my opinion. If you don't want a Glock, you can choose something else but single action autos are not on the list. 1911s are only available to those who have a stricter training regiment, SRT/ESB/SWAT etc. I like the Glock system, it works well for me. 22/23/27 17/26

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Your finger should not be on the trigger unless the facts and circumstannces indicate that deadly force is necessary. </div></div>Correction: a gun shouldn't even be in your hand at all unless the facts and circumstances strongly suggest that deadly force is presently necessary, or will be in the VERY near future.The safest place for your gun is in its holster. </div></div>Did you make that up? Because I have never seen that in the policy of any department, and for obvious reasons, including the need for inspection and maintenance (which is when most ADs happen and why many adminisitrators argue for heavier triggers). </div></div>

Graham,

I think he is speaking from a "Use of Force" continuum perspective.

 

[Bowman]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Socalsheepdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob Opp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Choose the handgun that fits you best.
Rob Opp </div></div>

I agree with this and it speaks to those who are "into" firearms and who have taken the time to figure out what's best for them. The problem in LE is that, disturbingly, most cops are not that interested in "GUNS". When I signed up, I was excited to be a part of a community who liked firearms. I was sad to learn that not that many are. For this reason the Glock is the best choice for them in my opinion. If you don't want a Glock, you can choose something else but single action autos are not on the list. 1911s are only available to those who have a stricter training regiment, SRT/ESB/SWAT etc. I like the Glock system, it works well for me. 22/23/27 17/26 </div></div>

So incredibly true!!!!! A lot of cops struggle to pass a no-stress qual. That's not the saddest part. I've had to show veterans how to disassemble their weapons after qual for cleaning. I have to say, unfortunately, most cops would die if they were in a gun fight that required an immediate action drill.

 

[Graham]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Your finger should not be on the trigger unless the facts and circumstannces indicate that deadly force is necessary. </div></div>Correction: a gun shouldn't even be in your hand at all unless the facts and circumstances strongly suggest that deadly force is presently necessary, or will be in the VERY near future.The safest place for your gun is in its holster. </div></div>Did you make that up? Because I have never seen that in the policy of any department, and for obvious reasons, including the need for inspection and maintenance (which is when most ADs happen and why many adminisitrators argue for heavier triggers). </div></div>Graham, I think he is speaking from a "Use of Force" continuum perspective. </div></div>Perhaps, but then he's not being precise in what he is saying or what he means, which is one reason why written discussions on a forum frequently turn into arguments.

Besides, he happens to be flat wrong: The safest place for your gun is in your hand. And he would know that if he had ever been the victim of a gun grab when his sidearm was holstered.

I know what you are saying about the force continuum, but he is not showing an understanding of how policy works. For example: What happens when you take a suspect to jail and are required to take your gun off and lock it up? That's still a 'tactical' situation, and if the jail is regional one with a 'sally port' type of holding area the officer is not yet inside the building.

That whole 'holster is a safety device' mantra is valid, but mainly on the shooting range. In the real world <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> are the safety device. It is important not to get the two places confused when attempting to correct someone else in print.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I fully understand and agree.

 

[Graham]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing:

USPSA teaches that the holster is a safety device. That's true, as it applies to carrying a 'hot' gun on a range during a match.

Police officers are taught that the safest place for your pistol is in the holster (and for some officers this is <span style="font-style: italic">always</span> true

). But I hear people repeat this to others without placing the information in proper context. For the well-trained officer it is only true <span style="font-style: italic">when someone else has their hand on your gun</span>.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

Weapon retention is often neglected by lazy officers by the level of security their holster offer. Can't tell you how many pistols I have taken from level II and III holsters during weapon retention training with officers. They use to joke that they could tell what officers had recently been through an in-service with me because they would carry their hand over their holster like the wild west.

IDPA and USPA are not realistic even in the slightest.

 

[nw911guy]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Weapon retention is often neglected by lazy officers by the level of security their holster offer. Can't tell you how many pistols I have taken from level II and III holsters during weapon retention training with officers. They use to joke that they could tell what officers had recently been through an in-service with me because they would carry their hand over their holster like the wild west.

IDPA and USPA are not realistic even in the slightest.

</div></div>

A couple years ago I took a retention and disarmament class with FAS. I found a couple of sheriffs dept. deputies in the class. I found out that the biggest county (population wise) didn't bother teaching their officers this stuff.

And I agree with you on the IDPA and USPSA. They have their place as stress inducers, but some of the stages they come up with, my solution would be a hand grenade not a handgun. Call the freakin swat team as I have no business walking into something like the stage represents.

 

[Graham]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A couple years ago I took a retention and disarmament class with FAS. I found a couple of sheriffs dept. deputies in the class. I found out that the biggest county (population wise) didn't bother teaching their officers this stuff.</div></div>You might be surprised at how many departments that 'teach' it simply go over it once or twice, log it as 'training', but never actually drill it at full full contact or full speed.

 

[snipe10]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I've got a Volkmann Combat Custom w/rail, what holster do yo use for OWB concealed,
Thanks,

 

[amatac]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

This age old debate will never ever die. For shooting comps...hands down 1911. It doesn't get much better than a slick 1911. For the field, I am leaving the 1911 at home for the Glock. They continue to be battle proven on a daily basis. You can throw a Glock around like a red headed step child and it will come back for more. They are gluttons for punishment and they rarely fail.

 

[JHenckel]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I can pretty much sum this whole topic up in one analogy...the 1911 is to a '69 Camaro SS where as the Glock etc is to the '11 Camaro SS...think about it, youll get it

Feel free to insert other cars of course, but you get the point...

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

I've read through these post a couple times and keep coming up with the same conclusion. I was issued a Model 28 Smith, carried it for most of my 20 years in LE. It never jammbed, it didn't care what ammo you used. You can't wear it out.

I've read Capt Fairbairn's SHOOTING TO LIVE, where he mentions several occasions where bandits where shot several times with a 45 then the officer had to pistol whip them into summission. No better gun out there if you're gonna club someone.

I still shoot it quite a lot now (they let me keep it when I retired).

If by some wierd chance I was to ever go back into LE, I'd want my Model 28.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Real Cops carry revolvers</span>.

 

[sergeant69]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

i carried a 28 as a duty gun for about 6 months in the late 70's.. i think thats why i now have a bad back! later had it turned into a .44 spl. but ur right, it never jammed/failed!

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Real <span style="color: #CC0000">Old</span> Cops carry revolvers</span>.
</div></div>

Just yankin yer chain Kraig. I love revolvers and carry one most days but as a backup gun. Bad guys tend to use pistols with a substantially higher capacity than revolvers which leaves the revolver armed officer at a disadvantage. Of course shot placement is key but few agencies have time or budget to train their officers to a level of proficiency that would make a revolver adequate.

 

[bmt]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm honestly surprised that nobody has talked about the merits of a Colt Single Action Army, or a Detective Special!

</div></div>

Well . . .

Revolvers are BETTER . . . .

I carry a model 29 everyday.

BMT

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Question for SWAT/LE/Military on sidearms . . . .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Real Cops carry revolvers</div></div>

I wrote that as a joke, but got to thinking, some times, some places there may be some truth to that statement. Or should I say "Cops in certain areas need revolvers".

I worked in Anchorage where we had a lot of Moose/Vehicle accidents occur. Often moose have to be put down. Late in my career they started letting us carry semis. I carried a 1911 for a while but went back to my Model 28 for that reason and the fact that the average number of shots fired by LE in shooting situations is about 2.8 rounds, that even taking into account that most cops can't shoot worth a hoot.

This guy went after my Patrol Car, after chasing other cars in a ditch during a snow storm. Hard to beat a heavy revolver firing 357s in this situation. I still think if I was in the game, I'd elect to carry my Model 28.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Beware of the old, salty, overweight, donut-eating, hard-drinking cop who carries a wheelgun. He may just know how to use it.</div></div>