Night Vision Question regarding SkeetIR/clip-on thermal

[mikefraz]

I’m itching for an “all in one” thermal that can be helmet mounted for walking/spotting, and then thrown on a Wilcox FTS mount for clip-on duty in front of my 1.5x compact ACOG. It appears that the SkeetIR-x is the best thermal clip on for use with no/low magnification optics(correct me if I’m wrong).The problem is, is that the SkeetIR-x costs $15k.

I know that you definitely get what you pay for, and thermal/night vision is a perfect example of that. But I’m wondering if there’s a step down from the SkeetIR-x. My Google-fu returned some results of a SkeetIR-L, from OASYS/BAE before the Trijicon buyout, that appears to be a 320 instead of a 640 that a few websites are selling NOS of for around $7-8k, but my understanding is that these units have zero support behind them if nothing goes wrong. Correct me if I’m wrong on that one.

Another option is the Snipe-IR that can be used with that same Wilcox FTS mount, but I’m not sure it would work well in a helmet mounted orientation. I’m also not sure about how it works with a 1.5x optic. They also cost $9-10k, which isn’t worlds better than the SkeetIR-x, and is considerably bigger and heavier.

Is there another option that I’m missing that can be used helmet mounted and as a clip-on(and works well with a 1.5x magnification optic)? I do really like the Wilcox FTS mount, but I guess I could look past it if it meant saving a considerable amount of money.

 

[mikefraz]

just something to think about.

Does the Snipe-IR play nice with a 1.5x mag optic?

 

[wigwamitus]

... Does the Snipe-IR play nice with a 1.5x mag optic? ...

In clipon mode, the snipe shrinks the display to support more magnification (demagnification on the back end) so the display will be really small on 1.5x ... around 3x to 4x is the sweet spot ...

Now in hybrid mode snipe will work on 1.5x

 

[wigwamitus]

The skeet will work ... but you'll probably have to dial an offset with your day optic ... dial offset when mounting the skeet and undial when dismounting the skeet.

I do it with my .22LR(16)

 

[mikefraz]

Now in hybrid mode snipe will work on 1.5x

After some research, I’m uncertain what “hybrid mode” actually is. Trijicon’s own literature seems almost purposely vague. Can you explain it to me? Also, the IR-Patrol M300W is no longer advertised as a clip on, but used to be. Is that a viable option if I’m not going to be moving it from gun to gun?

Are there other good options for a thermal clip on that can be optimally used with a 1.5x optic?

 

[wigwamitus]

What's available includes:

01 - Pulsar FXQ38/50
02 - Apollo/mini/pro/336/640
03 - Used Patrols that still have the clipon mode in them
04 - SNIPE
05 - Skeet
06 - LWTS/LWTS-LR
07 - Trijicon UTC-xii

Now there are a few other imports and discontinued items out there, but the above are the items you can either buy today or get in line to buy today (which will shortly be available as new units)

05, 06 and 07 are priced above $10k so if that's outside your budget, then you can remove those from the list.

As far as new units, the Pulsars and Armasights (rebranded as "FLIRs") can be made to work, but as with most clipons you'll need to be aware of the center heights of the optics and work to get them aligned. Most of the commerical units are adjustable. So even if you can't get them lined up perfectly, you can adjust the boresight in the thermal to reach a repeatable, mount/dismount capability for a given rifle/day scope combination.

What optic is this 1.5x optic !! ??

 

[wigwamitus]

Per the SNIPE manual, "hybrid" mode exists to aid in target ID.

So you can enter hybrid mode and this gives you a non-demagnified image, in fact it is a 2x image displaying a reticle in the thermal. Now if you have the thermal mounted as a clipon, you'll see a full screen and both your day scope reticle and your thermal reticle.
If you need to shoot in hybrid mode, you use the thermal reticle for aiming. But otherwise, you accomplish your PID and then click back (center click the joystick) to both enter and leave hybrid mode, so it is easy and fast, from the FUNCTION (a.k.a. main) menu). And once back in clipon mode, you use your day scope reticle for aiming.

 

[wigwamitus]

... moving it from gun to gun ...

None of the commericial thermal clipons are "colimated" in the sense that none of them have colimating prisims on the rear end. These are also known as "optical wedge" or "risley prisms". The purpose of those widgets is to mitigate (within tolerance) alignment issues between the day scope and the clipon. REAL clipons (a.k.a. military clipons) have such prisms on the rear end and can be moved from gun to gun without adjustments. For instance the UTC-x/xii or the PVS-22/30 all can be moved from gun to gun (provided day scope center heights are within the tolerances of the clipon prism systems) without adjustments. And in fact no adjustments are possible on those clipons.
With the pulsars, apollos Snipe, Patrol. etc. the commercial clipons, it is possible to adjust the boresight of the thermal to match the mis-alignment conditions encountered on a given rifle with a given day optic.
I liken this to using a SIMRAD. With a SIMRAD, I mount it to a pre-zeroed rifle and then shoot until my PIO is the correct distance below POA. Then the SIMRAD is boresighted on that optic on that rifle (with that ammo in those atmospheric conditions )

Then I can remove the SIMRAD and reattach the SIMRAD and I will have repeatability on that rifle. Well this same idea carries over to the commericial thermal clipons that do not have prism colimation. You can align them for a given rifle setup, but to move them to a different rifle, requires adjustments. Just like the SIMRAD.

For REAL clipons either NV or Thermal, you have to move up to the military clipons. I have some of each and I'm fine with that, given the price performance.

 

[wigwamitus]

... 1.5x compact ACOG ...

Ok, got that question answered, so its a fixed 1.5x which is what I was wondering. But then you said, rifle to rifle. So a list of the optics you want to be in scope for a thermal clipon would be useful.

==

... SkeetIR-L, from OASYS/BAE before the Trijicon buyout, that appears to be a 320 instead of a 640 that a few websites are selling NOS of for around $7-8k, but my understanding is that these units have zero support behind them if nothing goes wrong. Correct me if I’m wrong on that one ...

As to the BAE OASYS units, any which can be traced back to an approved BAE OSAYS dealer (there were about a dozen) could in theory be serviced by Trijion, eventually, though we're heard that getting UTMs serviced, still is about a year out, even for a Federal agency that was asking. Otherwise, units which cannot be traced back to such dealers, would not be serviced by trijicon per what I'm hearing.

==

... Another option is the Snipe-IR that can be used with that same Wilcox FTS mount, but I’m not sure it would work well in a helmet mounted orientation. I’m also not sure about how it works with a 1.5x optic. They also cost $9-10k, which isn’t worlds better than the SkeetIR-x, and is considerably bigger and heavier ...

I got a SNIPE with the intent of running it on helmet as well as, as a clipon. And using the Skeet mount.
SNIPE street price is below the shown pricing, so if u actually want one 1 day, shop around a little more and you should be able to knock a lot of $ off the price.

SNIPE is roughly the same size/weight as the patrol and myself and others wear those on the helmet.

The main issue with helmet mounting the snipe is it has no 1x mode. Its either 0.5x for clipon mode or 2x (4x+) otherwise. So that means, on your head, you would be in 2x mode. And that works for me. I've walked around and driven around on 4-wheeler with patrol on 2x digital and it works for me. A number of people say it doesn't work for them and I believe them, all I can say is that it works for me.
But just be aware, you would be in 2x mode on your helmet.

==

... “all in one” thermal ...

If there really was such a thing, I think many of us would have them ... but even those units that try to do "all in one" are gonna come up short on some of not all of the axes.

 

[mikefraz]

Ok, got that question answered, so its a fixed 1.5x which is what I was wondering. But then you said, rifle to rifle. So a list of the optics you want to be in scope for a thermal clipon would be useful.

==


As to the BAE OASYS units, any which can be traced back to an approved BAE OSAYS dealer (there were about a dozen) could in theory be serviced by Trijion, eventually, though we're heard that getting UTMs serviced, still is about a year out, even for a Federal agency that was asking. Otherwise, units which cannot be traced back to such dealers, would not be serviced by trijicon per what I'm hearing.

==


I got a SNIPE with the intent of running it on helmet as well as, as a clipon. And using the Skeet mount.
SNIPE street price is below the shown pricing, so if u actually want one 1 day, shop around a little more and you should be able to knock a lot of $ off the price.

SNIPE is roughly the same size/weight as the patrol and myself and others wear those on the helmet.

The main issue with helmet mounting the snipe is it has no 1x mode. Its either 0.5x for clipon mode or 2x (4x+) otherwise. So that means, on your head, you would be in 2x mode. And that works for me. I've walked around and driven around on 4-wheeler with patrol on 2x digital and it works for me. A number of people say it doesn't work for them and I believe them, all I can say is that it works for me.
But just be aware, you would be in 2x mode on your helmet.

==


If there really was such a thing, I think many of us would have them ... but even those units that try to do "all in one" are gonna come up short on some of not all of the axes.

You threw a lot of information at me, which has helped, but has also raised more questions (doesn’t it always?). I would not be moving this from one gun to the other. Perhaps someone else in this thread said that. I didn’t find it in my original post. So having it zero’d once and leaving it wouldn’t be an issue.

I’ll start with the Snipe-IR. If I’m understanding you correctly, there’s no way for me to have the Snipe-IR’s screen optimized to work with my 1.5x optic without also having the Snipe-IR’s reticle ALSO on the screen at the same time? If so, that seems less than optimal. Is the IR-Patrol M300W the same way?

Next question, is there a performance difference between the image provided by the SkeetIR-x and the Snipe-IR? On paper they appear to be the same . Does the SkeetIR-x have the same limitation of the Snipe-IR of having to use the hybrid mode?

Would any of the other clip-on options you listed work better with a 1.5x optic?

All said and done, if a clip-on is going to be too much of a hassle, I’ll just suck it up and get an NVision Halo and deal with taking my day optic on and off. If I went this route, would the Halo be usable as a handheld scanner when not mounted on my rifle? I know it can’t be helmet mounted, but want to make sure that I get as much functionality out of it as possible.

 

[wigwamitus]

Any thermal that we are talking about works as a hand held.

Most thermal clipons demagnify on the backend (with offsetting magnification on the front end) in order to provide more support for magnification from the day optics. The clipons need to present a net 1x magnification to the day scope, in order for the day scope reticle to be valid, for the subtensions to be correct. So this is why more thermal clipons have "small" screens on the back.

The SNIPE, Patrol, LWTS-LR, as examples ALL go into 0.5x "clipon mode" and make their screen smaller to be clipons.

The skeet, not primarily designed to be a clipon, does not go into 0.5x to be in "clipon mode". But, the skeet has neither colimating prisms nor adjustability, so, you zero your day optic, then you mount the skeet on the skeet mount, as close to the day optic as possible (see my pic of my .22LR with the skeet on the skeet mount in front of the ACOG TA01/TA51). That will get you in the ball park. But in my experience you will still have POI != POA and you will have to dial that adjustment on your day optic. And memorize it. Because you'll have to undial it when you remove the skeet.

If you want a thermal clipon for a 1.5x optic and you want the best image you can buy for that purpose, then the skeet is the answer. And the street price is CONSIDERABLY less than the number you mention.

And at night you can mount the skeet on your head and then if you see something that needs to be shot, you can pull it off your head and clipon it on the skeet mount, which should remain on the gun (don't remove the mount, just the skeet) and then shoot. If you practice dismounting and remounting the skeet say 20 times in the day time, to get the fluidity of the motion and then try it another 100 times in the bathroom with the lights out and your eyes closed, then you should be able to do it really fast when you need to. The assumption being that at night, you'll leave the ACOG dialed for the skeet. But then when you return, you MUST remember to undial for day time.

==
The skeet has heads up azimuth, which I use all the time even when out by myself (which is 99% of the time) to index the critters as I do my 360s.
2 deer grazing at 270 degrees, 515 yds,
1 deer moving East at 338 yrds, 190 degrees
2 deer bedded down at 890yds, 175 degrees
1 buck moving South at 365yds, 85 degrees

That sort of thing. Then as I continue to do 360s, I can update the list. That helps me maintain my orientation and keep track of what's going on out there.
I get the distances with the RAPTARs or Radiae on the rifles.

And the skeet has a laser pointer, which I've never used in the field, but it might come in handy if you were out with a team where some guys had NV only.

And the skeet's image is better than the patrol, maybe 50% better, hard to quantify because conditions are different every night. But definitely detectably better

They both have BAE cores, but they don't have the same display on the back or the same lenses either front or back.

The patrol is a great optic, but you get what you pay for with the skeet.

==
All that said, the Halo-LR is a great unit, especially now that the mil reticle has been added. That really sets the Halo's apart from the Trijicons. So, if you have more than one gun, you can set one up for night work, and the other up for day work. And if you don't have more than one gun, you can buy another "stoner" type rifle for somewhere between $1000 to $1500.

Most people are fine with the dedicated thermal scopes ... but if you only have one rifle, then the clipons are useful, that way, once you're setup, you always ready to go either night or day.

There is no one right answer. Depends on the use cases, in detail and a lot of that depends on you and your preferences.

 

[mikefraz]

Any thermal that we are talking about works as a hand held.

Most thermal clipons demagnify on the backend (with offsetting magnification on the front end) in order to provide more support for magnification from the day optics. The clipons need to present a net 1x magnification to the day scope, in order for the day scope reticle to be valid, for the subtensions to be correct. So this is why more thermal clipons have "small" screens on the back.

The SNIPE, Patrol, LWTS-LR, as examples ALL go into 0.5x "clipon mode" and make their screen smaller to be clipons.

The skeet, not primarily designed to be a clipon, does not go into 0.5x to be in "clipon mode". But, the skeet has neither colimating prisms nor adjustability, so, you zero your day optic, then you mount the skeet on the skeet mount, as close to the day optic as possible (see my pic of my .22LR with the skeet on the skeet mount in front of the ACOG TA01/TA51). That will get you in the ball park. But in my experience you will still have POI != POA and you will have to dial that adjustment on your day optic. And memorize it. Because you'll have to undial it when you remove the skeet.

If you want a thermal clipon for a 1.5x optic and you want the best image you can buy for that purpose, then the skeet is the answer. And the street price is CONSIDERABLY less than the number you mention.

And at night you can mount the skeet on your head and then if you see something that needs to be shot, you can pull it off your head and clipon it on the skeet mount, which should remain on the gun (don't remove the mount, just the skeet) and then shoot. If you practice dismounting and remounting the skeet say 20 times in the day time, to get the fluidity of the motion and then try it another 100 times in the bathroom with the lights out and your eyes closed, then you should be able to do it really fast when you need to. The assumption being that at night, you'll leave the ACOG dialed for the skeet. But then when you return, you MUST remember to undial for day time.

==
The skeet has heads up azimuth, which I use all the time even when out by myself (which is 99% of the time) to index the critters as I do my 360s.
2 deer grazing at 270 degrees, 515 yds,
1 deer moving East at 338 yrds, 190 degrees
2 deer bedded down at 890yds, 175 degrees
1 buck moving South at 365yds, 85 degrees

That sort of thing. Then as I continue to do 360s, I can update the list. That helps me maintain my orientation and keep track of what's going on out there.
I get the distances with the RAPTARs or Radiae on the rifles.

And the skeet has a laser pointer, which I've never used in the field, but it might come in handy if you were out with a team where some guys had NV only.

And the skeet's image is better than the patrol, maybe 50% better, hard to quantify because conditions are different every night. But definitely detectably better

They both have BAE cores, but they don't have the same display on the back or the same lenses either front or back.

The patrol is a great optic, but you get what you pay for with the skeet.

==
All that said, the Halo-LR is a great unit, especially now that the mil reticle has been added. That really sets the Halo's apart from the Trijicons. So, if you have more than one gun, you can set one up for night work, and the other up for day work. And if you don't have more than one gun, you can buy another "stoner" type rifle for somewhere between $1000 to $1500.

Most people are fine with the dedicated thermal scopes ... but if you only have one rifle, then the clipons are useful, that way, once you're setup, you always ready to go either night or day.

There is no one right answer. Depends on the use cases, in detail and a lot of that depends on you and your preferences.

You mentioned that the street price for a SkeetIR is considerably less than what I listed. Looks to me that TNVC and similar vendors are selling it for $14-15k. Are you aware of a better price? Or are you talking about another SkeetIR variant I’m not aware of? I’m not too excited about having to change the zero of my ACOG, but it wouldn’t be the end of the world. I could just use two different color lines next to my turrets, one as a day time zero and a second one as the “thermal zero”.

The average price I’m seeing for a NVision Halo is around $5.5k. So depending on the total price delta, I’ll have to see if the juice is worth the major extra squeeze.

By the way, you have been a huge help. Your experience and knowledge have been priceless.

 

[wigwamitus]

... . Are you aware of a better price?

Yes, most vendors sell items for less than shown prices if you call them on the phone and "negotiate".

As to Halo, yes there is a 25mm and a 50mm version, the 50mm version (the Halo-LR) is more expensive, but due to more magnification, the mil-reticle is more usable. So, if you might want to shoot out into the 250yds to 400yds territory, then consider the LR unit with the more usable holding reticle. If you're just shooting inside 250yds, then the 25mm is a good unit due to greater FOV.

 

[newguy2k3v2]

Any thermal that we are talking about works as a hand held.

Most thermal clipons demagnify on the backend (with offsetting magnification on the front end) in order to provide more support for magnification from the day optics. The clipons need to present a net 1x magnification to the day scope, in order for the day scope reticle to be valid, for the subtensions to be correct. So this is why more thermal clipons have "small" screens on the back.

The SNIPE, Patrol, LWTS-LR, as examples ALL go into 0.5x "clipon mode" and make their screen smaller to be clipons.

The skeet, not primarily designed to be a clipon, does not go into 0.5x to be in "clipon mode". But, the skeet has neither colimating prisms nor adjustability, so, you zero your day optic, then you mount the skeet on the skeet mount, as close to the day optic as possible (see my pic of my .22LR with the skeet on the skeet mount in front of the ACOG TA01/TA51). That will get you in the ball park. But in my experience you will still have POI != POA and you will have to dial that adjustment on your day optic. And memorize it. Because you'll have to undial it when you remove the skeet.

If you want a thermal clipon for a 1.5x optic and you want the best image you can buy for that purpose, then the skeet is the answer. And the street price is CONSIDERABLY less than the number you mention.

And at night you can mount the skeet on your head and then if you see something that needs to be shot, you can pull it off your head and clipon it on the skeet mount, which should remain on the gun (don't remove the mount, just the skeet) and then shoot. If you practice dismounting and remounting the skeet say 20 times in the day time, to get the fluidity of the motion and then try it another 100 times in the bathroom with the lights out and your eyes closed, then you should be able to do it really fast when you need to. The assumption being that at night, you'll leave the ACOG dialed for the skeet. But then when you return, you MUST remember to undial for day time.

==
The skeet has heads up azimuth, which I use all the time even when out by myself (which is 99% of the time) to index the critters as I do my 360s.
2 deer grazing at 270 degrees, 515 yds,
1 deer moving East at 338 yrds, 190 degrees
2 deer bedded down at 890yds, 175 degrees
1 buck moving South at 365yds, 85 degrees

That sort of thing. Then as I continue to do 360s, I can update the list. That helps me maintain my orientation and keep track of what's going on out there.
I get the distances with the RAPTARs or Radiae on the rifles.

And the skeet has a laser pointer, which I've never used in the field, but it might come in handy if you were out with a team where some guys had NV only.

And the skeet's image is better than the patrol, maybe 50% better, hard to quantify because conditions are different every night. But definitely detectably better

They both have BAE cores, but they don't have the same display on the back or the same lenses either front or back.

The patrol is a great optic, but you get what you pay for with the skeet.

==
All that said, the Halo-LR is a great unit, especially now that the mil reticle has been added. That really sets the Halo's apart from the Trijicons. So, if you have more than one gun, you can set one up for night work, and the other up for day work. And if you don't have more than one gun, you can buy another "stoner" type rifle for somewhere between $1000 to $1500.

Most people are fine with the dedicated thermal scopes ... but if you only have one rifle, then the clipons are useful, that way, once you're setup, you always ready to go either night or day.

There is no one right answer. Depends on the use cases, in detail and a lot of that depends on you and your preferences.

Don't the snipe and lwts-lr go to .5x because a full fov would actually be 2x due to the magnification on the objective. Clip on mode on the patrol is still 1x but it brings the menus more into the center of the doc so you can see them through a magnified optic. Just like the lwts. Standalone and clip on mode are both 1x, menu items and indicators are moved closer to center so they can be seen.

I didn't know they took the clipon functionality out of the new patrols. I wonder why? It's not like it hurts anything other than sales of other models possibly.

 

[wigwamitus]

... Don't the snipe and lwts-lr go to .5x because a full fov would actually be 2x due to the magnification on the objective

Exactly
==

... Clip on mode on the patrol is still 1x ...

... yes but IIRC screen is still smaller, but it is 1x. Like 9 inch TV shows same picture as 18 inch TV, just smaller.

... I wonder why? ...

IDK, if I remember, I'll ask em !

I've tried patrol clipon mode twice in last two years for about 2 x 30m sessions in zeroing. But plan on getting serious with trying it once it comes back to me after repair (I dropped it). Heard it is shipping back to me today.

==

 

[newguy2k3v2]

Exactly
==

... yes but IIRC screen is still smaller, but it is 1x. Like 9 inch TV shows same picture as 18 inch TV, just smaller.

IDK, if I remember, I'll ask em !

I've tried patrol clipon mode twice in last two years for about 2 x 30m sessions in zeroing. But plan on getting serious with trying it once it comes back to me after repair (I dropped it). Heard it is shipping back to me today.

==

I powered mine on and you're right the screen does shrink and it does indeed appear to demagnify in clip on mode. I always thought the patrol was 1x or maybe 1.1 but now Trijicon shows 1.5.
I'm more confused than when I started.

Why would you take a 1x image and shrink to .5x if the end goal is 1x ?

 

[wigwamitus]

It could be the front lens is really 1.5x (like the mk2 19mm). If so, the the so called 0.5x for clipon mode could really be 0.33x and they just call it 0.5x and if so, then it could be that 1x is really 0.66x and they just call it 1x
Either that or the patrol has its own lens that is really 1x.
When I get my patrol back, I'll pay more attention and try to figure it out. But, they could've changed it for the new ones (the lens) ... and maybe that's why no more clipon mode.

 

[newguy2k3v2]

Clip on mode definitely results in a given object looking roughly 1/2 the size that it does with the naked eye.

I'm going to have to dig out the manual and see what it says. There is no reticle, reticle, clip-on and a zc mode. Zc puts up a very small crosshair dead center of the screen. I really don't remember what that one is for.

You can tell I've only ever used mine as a head mounted monocular.

 

[mikefraz]

So what do I need to make sure is in order before attempting to buy a 320 SkeetIR-L from a dealer. What paperwork needs to be provided, etc? Might go that route if they’re $4k+ cheaper and 80% of the performance. Almost all of my shooting is within 200 yards. Would I be missing that much from the 640 given that parameter? I haven’t seen any comparison pictures/videos between the SkeetIR-L/x.

I know I *want* the SkeetIR-X, but I’m not sure I *need* theSkeetIR-X.

 

[CTM1]

Anyone ever buy the Voodoo skeet style IR device that was depicted here not long ago? Perhaps that is an option for the OP at a slightly lower price point than the X.

As someone who wanted a SKEET for a long time the more I read I just do not get how they were being marketed. The original OASYS vid marketed it as a Clip-On and as a COTI. After reading more it seemed it was not a great COTI because of size, and many have said the older model and now the X model is not a great clip on. It seems that many are helmet mounting it as a stand along unit despite it not being marketed that way from what I have seen. You would think at this price point they could have perfected it as Clip-On

 

[wigwamitus]

... I just do not get how they were being marketed. The original OASYS vid marketed it as a Clip-On and as a COTI. After reading more it seemed it was not a great COTI because of size, and many have said the older model and now the X model is not a great clip on. It seems that many are helmet mounting it as a stand along unit despite it not being marketed that way from what I have seen. You would think at this price point they could have perfected it as Clip-On ...

haha ... having been in technology companies most of my career I can say it is NORMAL for marketing to "jump the gun". I recall a situation where we (engineering) were working on a new project ... and we somehow got a hold of some of the new marketing material ... and it was like "Wait - the product doesn't do this or that .. or the other ... that they are saying the product does .. WTF ?"
I even escalated to the head of marketing. In the meeting he said, "Could you make it do those things ?" And I said, well yes, but the spec we have does not ask for those things. He said, "We are fishing - trying to find the market for this project - so writing up several versions of the material to see where we get the most bites".
It was then that I realized, that marketing was doing things differently that I had imagined

The skeet is a great helmet mountable spotter, I can say that much!!

As to a clipon .. the oasys line does have great clipons ... the UTC-x and UTC-xii !!!