Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

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3positionshooter

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Feb 14, 2010
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little rhody island- east greenwich
#1
Question to all, when someone on the hide says they have a rifle that shoots 1/4 moa groups, what does this mean to you?

A rifle that can group on occasion under ideal conditions- wind, ammo, shooter a best of .25 moa but may average closer to .5 moa.

A rifle that shoots the vast majority of time .25moa average (this means your rifle shoots in the 1's for 5 shot groups and in the 3's to obtain an average of .25 moa.

A rifle that has shot a best ever of .25 moa which may be considered a fluke by others but for bragging purposes it suffices as they carry the group in their wallet or post the same image on line time after time.
 
#2
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

There are some rifles that will shoot quarter MOA groups.

There are not many shooters who will.

The best precision rifle shooters I know - and I just spent the weekend with a bunch of them - don't find it necessary to brag about the size of the group their rifle shoots, because they know it's pretty much meaningless.

Most such comments are made by Internet commandos who can't shoot and don't shoot. I consider the source.
 
#3
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

When someone at the range tells me he has a 'quaterainch' gun I usually smile and say something about what a nice rifle it is.

After a few minutes, if he doesn't stop talking about it, I will ask him at what distance and with what ammunition it shoots .25 MOA.

But if he starts annoying others on the line I get out Frank's 3/8 dot target. It's an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper with five rows of five 3/8" dots on it. I challenge him to center-punch each dot to indicate a .25 MOA rifle, or to touch the line of each dot to show me that he has developed a .5 MOA system at the closest range distance of 100 yards.
 
#5
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

After several years of shooting I have come to the conclusion that groups help me pattern new loads but once I get past that drill it is time to move on. Groups don't mean much to me because it is more about me than the rifle I am shooting. I have rifles that are true shooters but it is my inconsistency that hampers its abilities and not the other way around.
 
#6
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clayward</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Question to all, when someone on the hide says they have a rifle that shoots 1/4 moa groups, what does this mean to you?</div></div>

First I consider the source.

Usually though it tells me that the poster at one point in time got the rifle to fire 3-5 rounds into a 1/4" group at 100 yards.

Rarely does it indicate that the system can consistently accomplish that feat. Even more rare is the person who can accomplish it on command.

However the internet is full of them. Not so much on the firing line.
 
#7
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clayward</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Question to all, when someone on the hide says they have a rifle that shoots 1/4 moa groups, what does this mean to you?</div></div>

First I consider the source.

Usually though it tells me that the poster at one point in time got the rifle to fire 3-5 rounds into a 1/4" group at 100 yards.

Rarely does it indicate that the system can consistently accomplish that feat. Even more rare is the person who can accomplish it on command.

However the internet is full of them. Not so much on the firing line. </div></div>

In my experience, anyone who claims to have a 1/4 MOA rifle is generally full of $#!T until they can prove, with a witness, otherwise. Do such rifles exist...sure. Do the shooters exist who are capable of that level of accuracy with the proper rifle/ammo/etc...sure. But, RARELY do you find that combination. Just because somebody got a 3-shot, 1/4 MOA group once, on a calm day with no wind, no mirage, no nothing, shooting with the rifle in a vice, etc., etc...at 100yds...doesn't mean they have a 1/4 MOA rifle.
 
#8
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

I recently shot a 4 shot group at 300yds you could cover with a dime (only 4 because that's all I had left)... with witnesses. That said, it will probably never happen again and frankly I couldn't believe it then. I'd be inclined to say my rifle has done it... But not as a rule. One group like that is completely LUCK!!! If I EVER do it again I'll be that much more happy with my rifle!

Edited to say: It's a Bolt-Gun... Not a semi-auto.
 
#9
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I always wondered how you could get 1/4 MOA from a 1/3rd MOA bullet..</div></div>

You subtract the caliber of the bullet from the final measurement.
 
#10
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Market Garden</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You subtract the caliber of the bullet from the final measurement. </div></div>


I never looked at it that way..
My best ever shot - 5 shot group - was about half an inch across, if I subtract the .307 diameter then that leaves me with roughly 1/4 moa then?

Hmmmm Well that was a one time thing, I have had 2MOA days too. On average I have .5 to 1 MOA days - and I'm OK with that!

I went from shooting The bottom target to THIS target after a 2 year haitus.

And I"m not ashamed to admit that this target is only 6 months old- not sureI could do the bottom target again without a good long practice time (2 months!) LOL

DSC06012.JPG

arctictarget.jpg
 
#13
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

I've got a .25 moa group hanging on my wall. The reason its hanging on my wall is because I dont shoot them that tight very often. Most people are full of crap!! I've also come to learn that what one man considers MOA can be completely different than what another man considers MOA. (i'm refering to eyeballing of course) To me if you can cover your shots with a dime, your kickin ass!!!!
 
#14
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

I do not compete in bench rest. As such I feel concentrating on tight groups (typically shot at 100 off a bench)is counter productive to long rang success.
I have shot rifles for 35 years now, been a accuracy nut since day one.
IF I am in practice, IF the rifle is capable of it, IF the ammo is and I have perfect conditions and all the time I want I can produce 1/4MOA. What does that mean tho?
I just took out a new build. Perfect conditions no wind no mirage and all day to do it. Zero and 2 groups at 100 to see if it was shootings like I hoped it would. 2 bug holes. Rock on. At 400 2 groups that measured 1" and less.
OK so that is 1/4 MOA or a bit better. Again does that mean anything?
Well it tells me two things. It stands a chance of being the most purely mechanically accurate stick I own.
Far more importantly to me it means I can engage a 1 MOA target under field conditions with absolute confidence in my equipment and anything else is my poor performance.
To me, for what I do, being able to engage a 1 MOA target from 100-1000 with repeatable success and certainty is way more useful than a gun that lives only to make small groups.
 
#15
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

something I'm eventually going to work on is something I saw Lowlight do in one of his videos. I'm going to take a big piece of cardboard and put 2 or 3 inch circles on it in random positions and practice tracking and distance.
 
#16
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

I purposely avoid shooting groups. I'm so good that were I to attempt it, all of the bullets would not only create a .00001 group, including the bullet diameter, but they would disrupt the time-space continuum. Much like dividing by zero.
wink.gif
 
#17
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

I laminate them and use them for bookmarks, just to keep them around, you know, to remember what's possible.

But I grant that, as many spoiled groups I've blamed on the wind, I suspect some of the good ones are because the wind blew the shots INTO the group.
 
#18
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

Once I got to Lindy's post, I knew I had a reasonable response.

After reading this, I realized my own vanity was to a fault. I also noticed that the targets I stapled inside the wall of my garage are all nearly a decade old now and I haven't really looked at them much lately.

Fact is, I shot better then, and got more thrill out of a good target. The thrill's been missing.

The excuses we make to ourselves are the most destructive...

In my view, this means I really do need to boot myself in the butt and get back to basics.

Thanks, folks, for the wake-up call.

Greg
 
#19
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

I cant clean a 1000 yard target. The x-10 ring on a 1000 yard target is about 20 inches. If I'm working my slide rule correctly thats 2 MOA.

If I can't shoot 2 moa what good does it do me to have a rifle bolted to a bench so it shoots 1/4 moa.

Sorry, I dont put much faith in itty bitty grouping rifles that can't shoot 2 moa at the distance I want to shoot. I'll put my money in shot and powder and work on my 2 moa groups.
 
#20
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

There is nothing wrong with benchrest shooting, and a lot of the technical innovations we use on tactical rifles came out of the benchrest world, including, but not limited to, new bullets, new cartridges, and techniques for building more accurate rifles.

And, having said that, I'm about being able to shoot at long distances people who are in need of being shot, and teaching those who will have to do so in defense of our personnel, our country, and our freedoms, how to do that.

So, except as a limited accuracy test, I don't give a damn about shooting groups - unless the groups are of human threats downrange who need to be reduced. Give me 5 Taliban downrange, and I'll be pleased to shoot a group.
 
#21
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

Lindy,

The funny part about it is I don't think I have ever seen a guy who hunts badguys for a living claim he can shoot a 1/4 MOA group on command.

Minute of head or minute of chest is the intended goal.

Now don't get me wrong, when I put a five shot group under a minute at anything greater than 200 yards I get a little stoked. It means my shots weren't a fluke and I was able to judge with wind well enough to get it done over the string. I just don't get blown away by itty-bitty groups at 100 yards. It just tells me my gear is working like it should.
 
#22
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clayward</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Question to all, when someone on the hide says they have a rifle that shoots 1/4 moa groups, what does this mean to you?

</div></div>

It means I usually never have to worry about shooting against them at any precision comps.

What my rifle's capable of and what I'm capable of are two different things. I get a group like the one ArcticLight posted every blue moon, but I can't do it regularly, and they actually more often than not come when I'm firing a string of shots at a target rather quickly, not trying for a "great group".
 
#23
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Give me 5 Taliban downrange, and I'll be pleased to shoot a group.</div></div>


Lindy, that is great, I have to use that in my sig. If you don't want me to credit to you, let me know.
 
#24
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

I'm not much of a benchrest shooter. I prefer a tactical course of fire. Multiple targets and multiple angels and ranges. One shot per target and without a bench. I only shoot groups to prove to myself that my equipment it sound and that I have a grasp of the basics of shooting. I have shot 1/4MOA groups on more than one occasions from a bench with ideal conditions. My challenge is to prone out on uneven ground, run 50 yards, do 20 push -ups and then get into my gun and hit an MOA target at an undetermined range. I also like to set out a dozen small targets and take one shot at each. But, to each their own. Cheers.
 
#29
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

1 MOA or better at 100 yards means if I miss at longer ranges then I missed, not the equipment. If my rifles don't shoot 1 MOA or better at 100 then I don't shoot them very often.

1/4 MOA? I don't own one of those weapons or the skill set to use them.
 
#30
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

I actually do own a 1/4 MOA rifle, and I can say that with confidence, I know it is a freakin hammer...the only thing that gains me is a lack of excuses when I miss. I know it is not the rifle, I know it was me...and it seems to happen alot.

I personally think there are a lot of 1/4 MOA rifles out there. That is...one that is capable of holding 1/4 MOA in perfect conditions with perfect ammo. Just the rifle and no other factors...not really that hard.

The industry standard for measuring a rifles ability is 3 rounds at 100 yards with no wind and the right ammo. Not that hard and IMHO not that realistic or even useful.

There are VERY few 1/4 MOA shooters, period.






Crap, I forgot, this is the internet...I meant to say...I can shoot 1/8 MOA all day every day! If you can not do that, you should feel ashamed...get off my internet!
laugh.gif
 
#31
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn!... Not only is it tight, but it's dead freakin' center! </div></div>

I have come to learn that if it is NOT dead center then what's the point of shooting?
If I try to replicate that group at 1000 yards and it's say, 2" to the left, then won't it be 20" to the left at 1000 yards?

----------------------------
Remember tho, that target is 5 years old, the target above it was MORE recent and I shoot like that if I take too much time off.
Is it deadly? Sure, but it's not as good as it could be with practice.
----------------------------

I don't even bother with groups anymore - I go for the cold bore shot - get it DEAD on target within 1/4", so most times when I shoot that rifle it's 1-3 rds and put her away.


Groups mean the rifle shoots well, hitting the X ring means I shoot well.
 
#33
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

I have multiple proof targets that are 0.25MOA. I can cover those holes with a dime. These are 5 shot groups at 100 yard.

However, these were shot off the bench using benchrest equipment and techniques during load development. Once I find the load, I zero my scope on it. This way I know I can eliminate the load and rifle being the problem when I practice shooting using other techniques.

Now a person that can shoot a 0.25MOA 5 shot group standing is impressive as heck to me.

At the rifle range, others have come up to me talking about how they have rifles that shoot the same. Ususally, I can look at their technique and equipment to reasonably guess whether they are bluffing or not. From my observations, about 70% are bluffing or using really loose standards (like a lucky 3 shot group that excludes multiple "flyers").
 
#34
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

I love it when you guys do reality checks. Keeps me from going crazy trying to shoot bugholes with my AR. You know, keeping up with the I-net marksman.

I just can't do it!
 
#35
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

I figure what gets shot in comp, good or bad, is worthy of display. Otherwise, not. I'm pretty certain I've never cleaned a target in comp.
 
#37
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

I know there are many accurate sticks out there,because I've been told so.Most all of them,are at least 1/2 moa.But I have come to the conclusion that I am truly bad luck.For it seems that almost every time I show up,their rifles turns to shit...
 
#38
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

Clay Spencer builds a Virginia hog rifle with a 1/4 guarantee but only in certain calibers with certain bullets and as he says, I guarantee the gun can shoot 1/4, I don't guarantee you can!
 
#39
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

last weekend aiming at a 2" square of duct tape @ 300y my 3 round group was 2" nice triangle. about .66 moa. off my truck tailgate. since I am not that good the gun must be doin .1 moa and i'm doin .56.

10 shots on steel @ 325y covered by a dollar bill. some wind and mirage.
only have 100 rounds down the pipe so far. with 4 or 5 100y .5" groups.
I think the stick is good and I need to work up loads to see if it will improuve.

I'd call it 1 MOA I hope it ends up as a 1/4 but I know it won't unless I get there too.

when someone tells me they have a 1/4 I'll smile and say I wish I did too.
 
#40
Re: Question- when someone says they have a 1/4 moa ??

I consider it a good day when I occassionally shot 0.5 MOA group. Usually around 1 MOA. I know my rifle is capable of shooting much bettter than I can so I live with what ever I manage on any given day.
 
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