Questions about actions and the 223 cartridge

[capreppy]

I have a series of questions, that I am struggling to find answers to. Some may open up a can of worms and I apologize in advance.

How many rounds is an action good for? Do certain brands have a longer "life"? Would repeaters (due to the mag cutout) have a lower life due to the stresses of the cutout?

Are single shot actions inherently more accurate? As others have stated in numerous threads prior to this one, consistency is key to accuracy. I would think that a single shot would have the least amount of "flex".

I have a cheap trainer (my Vortex HS 5-15 that tops it is worth more than the entire rifle) in 223 (24" 1/9 twist Savage Varmint profile). I am considering rebarreling the rifle. I want to stay with a 223, but I want a 1/7 or a 1/8 twist to shoot the heavies. My question are as follows:
- Is a 223 AI more inherently accurate than a regular 223?
- Other than shooting the 90's, is there a reason I should choose the 1/7 over the 1/8? Cost isn't a factor as there is no additional cost to do 1/7 versus 1/8.
- Weight NOT being a consideration and given that this is going on a large shank Savage action, can I consider a 30" barrel? I know that I get the benefit of some additional speed due to the barrel length, but is there a con to this idea? This barrel will be purchased from Jim @ Northland Shooters Supply who specializes in Criterion Barrels which are pre-fits for Savages. Given that this is going to on a Large Shank, in 223 / 223 AI, and I want a 1/7 or 1/8 twist, this is going to be a custom and will take 11 weeks so I can't change my mind later. Going from a 26 to 28 to 30 inch barrel will cost me $20 from 26 to 28 and $20 more to go from 28 to 30 so cost really isn't an issue.
- What is the typical barrel life of a 223/223AI?

 

[Sonic Crack]

There is no limit to an actions life, a single shot is going to be more ridged just because there is more material there. I dont think one would be more accurate than the other if your comparing apples to apples. If you compair factory to custom there will be better machining and tolaraces on the custom which would make it more inherenty accurate off the get go. That being said there are things to do to a factory action to make it as good as a custome one.
I would think 223AI would lend its self to be a little more inherently accurate just because of a more efficent case. To shoot the 90 grainers you would need 6.5 twist. I dont think a barrel lenght over 26-28 would be getting you much. Your only burning 24ish grains of powder.

Personaly, if I wanted to shoot heavy 224 pills I'd step up to 22-250/AI

 

[capreppy]

I would not shoot the heavies often and frankly may not shoot them enough to warrant thinking about them. With that being said, a previous thread I had created led me to believe I can still have the 1/7 twist and still shoot lighter pills.

If I don't really gain anything, I will probably stick with a 28" barrel then. I've been leaning towards a 223A. So additional question. Fire forming, just fire off a stout round and it'll fireform?

 

[Sonic Crack]

Yes you just fire form the brass. What is your idea of "lighter pills"? I would say anything lighter than 60 grians will not hold up in a 7 twist

 

[capreppy]

Yes you just fire form the brass. What is your idea of "lighter pills"? I would say anything lighter than 60 grians will not hold up in a 7 twist

I currently shoot a lot of 50gr V-Max/Z-Max out of my 1-9 as it is a very cheap target round (at least the Z-Max version is). In my previous thread quite a few folks where successfully using the 50gr pills in a 1-7 twist.

 

[BoilerUP]

1:7 gives you a little better stability in the cold and at low altitudes with certain bullets, like 80gr VLD-style pills.

I went with 223AI and 22" 1:7 Criterion...shoots 80 Amax @ 2900 very easily and trim brass pretty much never. And I doubt I'd have any issues with, say, a 40gr Vmax at full house velocities.

 

[6brshooter]

If ur " cheap savage 223 varmint rifle" is factory, it is a small shank, not large. Target actions, lazzeroni, and some of the belted mags use large shank. Personally, i never could get a 1-8 or faster twist to shoot light bullets worth a darn. I find a 1-9 to shoot50-75ish perfect. The caveat is that not all 75 gr will work, seems it was a 75 bthp or amax that did. 69 smk will do fine out to 600-650 range. A 223ai will have better brass life and reduce case growing/trimming. 22-250ai are neat but barrel life is low, expect between1200-1500 rds of accurate life. 80 gr vlds@3300 are wicked, but hell on throats. Another option is 223-35* shoulder. Straighten's case body sharpen's shoulder and provides a longer nk then ai case. Volume is between the 223&223ai.

 

[capreppy]

1:7 gives you a little better stability in the cold and at low altitudes with certain bullets, like 80gr VLD-style pills.

I went with 223AI and 22" 1:7 Criterion...shoots 80 Amax @ 2900 very easily and trim brass pretty much never. And I doubt I'd have any issues with, say, a 40gr Vmax at full house velocities.

Was hoping you would chime in. I couldn't easily find your threads and I knew you also had a 223AI. Definitely leaning that way.

Good to hear about the 1/7.

 

[Cacciatore]

I have a 28" barrel on my .223 and I absolutely love it. It is mostly a range gun, and I don't know what recoil is when shooting it.

 

[capreppy]

If ur " cheap savage 223 varmint rifle" is factory, it is a small shank, not large. Target actions, lazzeroni, and some of the belted mags use large shank. Personally, i never could get a 1-8 or faster twist to shoot light bullets worth a darn. I find a 1-9 to shoot50-75ish perfect. The caveat is that not all 75 gr will work, seems it was a 75 bthp or amax that did. 69 smk will do fine out to 600-650 range. A 223ai will have better brass life and reduce case growing/trimming. 22-250ai are neat but barrel life is low, expect between1200-1500 rds of accurate life. 80 gr vlds@3300 are wicked, but hell on throats. Another option is 223-35* shoulder. Straighten's case body sharpen's shoulder and provides a longer nk then ai case. Volume is between the 223&223ai.

The action came from a 300 WSM I got for about $125. The barrel is cheap at $100. Like I said, I don't have much into this rifle.

I can get the Hornady 75gr HPBT to shoot and ok, but I have 1k Nosler CC's for the longer distances. I got them cheap at $120 for the k. I would like to shoot the 77 SMK or the Hornady 75 or 80gr Amax which the 1/9 won't.

 

[BoilerUP]

Should not have any issues with a 77gr SMK/Nosler CC/Berger OTM from a 1:9 twist.

 

[BillCh]

I built my 223 AI on a Savage large shank repeater action. The barrel a 26 inch 8 twist Brux. I have no doubt the action will last many thousands of rounds.


Fireforming has been a non-issue. I get acceptable accuracy during the process. I generally despise messing with brass, so I don't. That's the best part of going A.I. for me. I'm not that good of a shot to have to worry much about preparing my brass for this rifle. It's a fun little blaster. I'd rather be shooting than reloading.


Something you may want to consider is that you probably won't be able to load anything bigger than something like a 77 gr. SMK to mag. length. If you want to be able to single load heavy bullets and lighter bullets form the magazine you will have to compromise somewhere.

The lightest bullet I tried was a 55 gr. I couldn't get the 55 gr. V-Max to group well at all. I'd used a 55 gr. SPSX in a previous 9 twist barrel with some success but this 1/8 twist and extra velocity caused them to disintegrate in flight. I designed this setup to shoot 75 and 80 grain bullets anyway so there was no disappointment. If I was going to shoot 90 gr. bullets I think I'd have to build a rifle chambered for that specific bullet in order to achieve any satisfaction. Berger and JLK VLD's are two of the few 90 grain bullets out there worth shooting (IMHO). From what I understand the 90's are a whole different animal.

B

 

[biffj]

I know a lot of guys shooting 50 and 55gr bullets in 1:7 twist rifles with no issues at all. Great accuracy and an ability to shoot the heavy 80+gr bullets as well. It gives you an opportunity to shoot a wider range of bullet weights. As for wearing out an action....good luck. I don't know of anyone who has worn one out though I know of some who have worn the bolts down so that they feel a bit loose in the action. Those guys were shooters out west who had a lot of sand where they shoot and fired thousands of rounds every year. One guy replaced his bolt with a new PTG after reaming the action to true it. The other just keeps shooting and still does well. No real change in accuracy, just feel when loading.

Frank

 

[capreppy]

Was chatting with my shooting buddy today while at the range. He suggested keeping the 223 as is. It shoots lights out and will always be there as a backup gun. I'm starting a 338 Edge build based on an R700 Magnum long action and he suggested possibly holding off on that for a year and building a dedicated 223AI on an R700 223 short action. Academy is still having their special and I can pick up both R700's at the same time to save the money on my virgin donor action, but it can sit in the safe for a year while I start and finish a dedicated 223 AI build. The 338 Edge build is going to be a 2 possibly 3 year endeavor given the cost, so what's another year.

I may consider this. It'll be the end of summer before I have the funds to do any of this anyway so gives me a little time to think this through.

 

[Boogaloo]

223 AI all the way

I say go .223 AI and don't look back. I would not be swayed by your buddy who may have never owned one just because he says that the standard .223 is just fine. With today's powder choices and 2 grains more capacity that the AI provides, coupled with the fact that you will almost never have to trim your brass, I just don't see the argument against it. Is it some magic creation that will give you 300 FPS more than a standard .223? No. Certainly not, but 2 (additional) grains CAN provide more velocity, and in certain combinations (powder, primer and bullet) MAY be the difference between bug holes @ 500 yards and half MOA if the stars are aligned I would think.

As for fire forming, I struggled with how easy/hard this was going to be leading up to my first outing, and all I can tell you is that I WAYYYYYY over thought it and worried about it for no reason whatsoever.

I loaded up all 200 rounds with some 77gr. PRVI Match HPBT bullets that I bought in bulk a long time ago for my AR's with 24.5gr of CFE223 and Win WSR primers and headed to the range on Saturday.

Here is a pic of one of my brand new 223 Lapua match cases (left) and one after fire forming one of the same lot of 223 Lapua Match cases (right):

What I can tell you is that even with these cheap bulk bullets, I was nailing a 4" round steel target @ 500 yards at will in gusty winds all day long. I was also peppering the targets out at 600 yards at will. When shooting for groups @ 100 and 200 I was not impressed, but I did not expect much either. These were loads that were pretty hot, and bullets that don;t perform very well even in one of my top shelf AR's that shoot bug holes with 69 and 77 grain Nosler CC's.

Moral of the story is that fire forming should not even remotely scare you. Load them up, shoot them, bring the brass home, neck size it and start developing your AI loads. It was laughable how easy it was to do this, and how accurate this thing was even during the fire forming process. there was not a target inside of 600 yards that I could not hit at will after I got the dope figured out. The thing is going to be a laser beam once I get the 80 VLD's dialed in.

 

[capreppy]

Thanks for the info. I think at this point I have heard enough arguments to go with an AI. This project is on slight hold as my wife announced this morning that the good TV is broke and a replacement is necessary ASAP (kids can't watch Bubble Guppies).

Going to start the budgeting process and hopefully soon, I'll have a 223AI.

 

[my human host]

I haven't worked with enough barrels to give you a scientific answer, but my experience has been that the 223 AI seems to have an accuracy edge over the parent round.

 

[capreppy]

Well apparently this project is on indefenite hold. The source of the funds for this project has been eliminated so I'll have to find the funds elsewhere.

I will definitely be getting a new barrel, but I think better glass is the priority and then the barrel after that.