Rifle Scopes Questions about transition from SFP MOA to FFP Mil-Mil and maybe X-mas tree:

[flyer]

I have a few scoped rifles, all SFP and all but one MOA (I have a VXR Patrol on one but no range time yet) and I'm going to go FFP Mil-Mil for my next scope on a long range rifle which I will be shooting mostly at 1,000 yards but I would like it to have the type of capability to shoot a PRS match (although I probably won't).

I have been doing my 1,000 yard shooting with a Minox ZA5 6-30x56 SFP with a BDC reticle (which I ignore mostly) and MOA clicks.

My new rifle is going to be very nice and I want a very capable scope, something in the Vortex Razor HD to Khales K624i realm.

I don't shoot as much as I would like, maybe 4-5 times a year due to the three hour travel time to the closest 1,000 yard range so practice is a major issue for me.

I want to learn Mil ranging and wind holds but I spend most of the day just trying to get back to where I was last time, then it's after noon, the wind comes up and I'm just not good enough to shoot well at 1,000 yards with a 10-15 mph cross wind.

If I could spend a week at the range I would make some progress and if I could go back every weekend for the next month, I could probably make it stick, it's just not in my schedule.

Christmas tree reticles kind of intrigue me. Windage always screws me up because I never remember which way to turn the knob. Maybe a tree would be more intuitive for me but it's another thing to learn.

Does anyone know of training materials that will spoon feed me info on how to use a Christmas tree reticle without going to the range?

If not a tree, training on Mil ranging would be nice.

I want visual examples, not an instruction manual.

I'm not sure I'm going to get a Christmas tree, I'm actually considering a scope that just has A crosshair with Mil based hashes unless I determine that a tree is for me...

 

[patriot07]

If the wind is off the right, you turn the knob towards the "R". Or at least that's how it works on most of them.

For Christmas trees, you're just holding both wind and elevation rather than dialing. So on a normal day, if my 6.5 CM is at 600 yards with a 10 mph cross wind off the right, then I'm at .8 mils of wind and 3.8 mils of elevation. Instead of dialing both, you just work your way down the tree on elevation til you get to 3.8 mils and then go left on the tree til you get to .8 mils. When you find your aiming point that has compensated for elevation and windage, then you put that on the center of your target and shoot. Which marks you use or how you figure out what point those numbers intersect is different from reticle to reticle.

I prefer non-tree reticles, like the NF Mil-C. My current scope is an SWFA 5-20 HD with the mil quad, and it's fine also. If you aren't going to be holding elevation, then you really don't have a need for the tree reticle.

 

[flyer]

I want to believe you and remember that but my dad's nickname is "wrong way ______" and I don't fall far from the tree.

At least I'll ask for directions but getting me to remember right from left might be asking too much unless I have visual cues and muscle memory helping me out.

I keep asking custom turret makers to engrave wind sock pictograms on a windage turret but evidently that's a really big ask.

If I could drill and drill and drill, I could make it stick but I might go broke first.

I doubt I'm the only person that screws up windage so much.

I just need a foolproof setup because of who's aiming.

 

[Bender]

Find someone close to you and go shoot with a guy that has some experience. It will be the fastest. Ffp Mil Mil is way more intuitive than a SFP. If you are spending half your day Just getting back to where you left off the last time you shoot, you definitely need some one on one guidance. Long range shooting can be extremely frustrating. But when you understand how to spot your own splash to make corrections, everything else becomes easier.

 

[Bender]

Holding for wind is the artfrom/science that gets everyone, it is THE challenge, bullet drop is just math. Wind is an art. Most prs shooters hold for wind and never dial for it because it is so dynamic. It changes quickly.

 

[patriot07]

I want to believe you and remember that but my dad's nickname is "wrong way ______" and I don't fall far from the tree.

At least I'll ask for directions but getting me to remember right from left might be asking too much unless I have visual cues and muscle memory helping me out.

I keep asking custom turret makers to engrave wind sock pictograms on a windage turret but evidently that's a really big ask.

If I could drill and drill and drill, I could make it stick but I might go broke first.

I doubt I'm the only person that screws up windage so much.

I just need a foolproof setup because of who's aiming.

If you really need a bulletproof way to do it, then I'd forget the tree reticle. At least in my mind, that would automatically be more confusing. Just dial to the R if the wind is off the right and dial to the L if the wind is off the left.

 

[flyer]

Find someone close to you and go shoot with a guy that has some experience. It will be the fastest. Ffp Mil Mil is way more intuitive than a SFP. If you are spending half your day Just getting back to where you left off the last time you shoot, you definitely need some one on one guidance. Long range shooting can be extremely frustrating. But when you understand how to spot your own splash to make corrections, everything else becomes easier.

The half day isn't spent dialing around, it's setting up, working on trigger control, trying not to shake, just getting in to it.

I do go shooting with a friend but when I'm shooting, he's behind the berm working the target and vice-versa.

It's just not conducive to making progress.

 

[Glassaholic]

Don't feel bad flyer, you're not the only one who's twisted your turret the wrong way, and especially under pressure we tend to make some crazy decisions in our heads which emphasizes practice. I think the first thing to get a good grasp on is the difference between Point of Aim (POA) and Point of Impact (POI). The POA is what you see through your scope, so crosshairs on a target is your POA, then when your bullet impacts, that is your POI. When you are sighting in, if your POI is low, then you'll turn your elevation turret in the "Up" direction because you want to move your POI up to align with your POA and if your impact was to the left of POA then you will rotate your windage turret in the "R" direction because you want to move your POI to the right to align with POA. Once your POA and POI are aligned, that is when you want to zero your scope and reset those turrets to zero.

Now with wind, you have an external force affecting the flight of your bullet but the same principal applies if you are dialing for wind, if your POI is to the left of POA, then you would adjust your windage turret in the "R" direction because you want to move your POI back in alignment with the POA. However, wind tends to not be a constant, there are gusts, there are lulls and if you're shooting at distance or across canyons you can get all kinds of crazyness out there, this is why many shooters (myself) included prefer to "hold" wind, this means that you are actually using a different area of your reticle instead of the center crosshairs as your POA. So lets say your shooting at a distance of 800 yards (assuming you've already dialed for elevation), and you notice that while your POA is centered on the target your splash is .7 mils to the left of the target, this means that you will hold .7 mils to the left of center on your horizontal stadia which will in effect move your center crosshairs to the right because that wind is going to push the bullet to the left. Getting proper ballistics and then truing your ballistics will help you get on target quicker; however, being able to "read the wind" is crucial for first shot placement because that .7 mil value is going to change depending on the force of the wind, direction of the wind and distance, etc. So if you have to take a shot and a big gust just came up, you might be holding .7 but that gust and other downrange wind dynamics may move your bullet an additional .3 mils or more which may cause you to miss.

I understand the whole visualization thing, most of the forum members are men and we are visually oriented so I will think of how I might draft up some images that might better help you (and others) to visualize what this looks like through your scope.

 

[PAYDIRT]

Pretend your bullet is on the end of your windage knob. Thread it in to "push" your bullet left , thread it out to "pull" the bullet right. That has always seemed the easiest the times I've helped others. Hopefully that helps someone.

 

[b6graham]

sounds like you need to dry fire a lot too. you'd be amazed how much you can learn without sending a round down range

 

[steve123]

Long range is relative, what I mean by that is, 100Y is long range for a PCP pellet rifle or 300Y for a 22 rimfire. All the same aspects of marksmanship apply just like when one is shooting a normal cartridge at 1000Y or a ELR cartridge/375CT at 2500Y.

You have to use a firing solution - considering drop and wind drift, either dialing or holding over or off and most of the other considerations of taking a long range shot with any other type of rifle.

"""Learning is just easier if done by hands on repetition""". So I suggest you by a scope that focuses close and it seems you want a more expensive and higher quality scope so...

My all time favorite is the S&B PMII 5-25x56. It's the scope that all the other scope Co's have striven to compete with ever since it came out and is still competitive at the apex today. The H59 version is right at the top of the most versatile scopes ever made. It focuses down to 10 meters which is unique compared to most long range scopes. I have won Field Target air rifle matches, 22 rimfire matches, Tactical matches and shot to 1.5 miles with this scope and that includes a ton of holding over and off vs just dialing the turrets, not to mention hunting as well and shooting night matches.

I said all that to suggest you get a nice PCP air rifle or 22 rimfire if you don't already have one or both, to practice with as often as you can, at your property or close to it. After a while using a scope and rifle will be second nature! I love both those platforms but PCP air rifles provide more challenge, can be super quiet with a moderator, and of course have no recoil, plus 500 match pellets only cost $14. A few of my PCP's can shoot 5 shots touching at 50Y.

A couple years ago I started putting the inexpensive Athlon variable FFP scopes on the PCP's, the less expensive 22's and some centerfires, those scopes are great for learning mils, FFP, and especailly holding over and off using the reticle. Don't be intimidated by tree reticles, they are just another tool in the toolbox.

 

[JS624]

FWIW the only time I dial wind is on a mover target stage. I'm a big fan of a xmas tree reticle especially if I'm required to use holdovers for a stage. Makes the wind hold much easier.
That being said I'm currently running the Mil C reticle on my NF because I didn't want to spend the extra money on the tremor3 or h59.
Best advice is dry fire practice and shoot as much as u can even if its 100 or 200 yards.
I practice probably 1 or 2 times a week off a homemade barricade with a 223 at 400 yards. Just repetition. Smoothing out transisitions and trigger pulls, recoil management etc.