questions/advice on improving accuracy

[broberson]

So I've recently completed a build. I went with seekins upper and lower, krieger barrel, NOX keymod rail, larue bipod, and a bushnell DMR2i. I want to start shooting competitions with my neighbor, and I'm in the early stages of figuring out what ammo does best with the setup I have.

The issue I am having is that my groups at 100yds aren't as tight as I want them. I'm pretty consistent with 1-1.5 moa with some occasional strays. My neighbor is pretty confident that its not my rig, but me. I'm pretty sure he's right! ha So he's suggesting lots of dry fire practice and range time. Is there anything else anyone can suggest to help me get to the 0.5 moa I see some of you badasses post up here?

Thanks for the info

 

[GrandpaDeadLegs]

Take a class or video yourself shooting and ask people to criticize your fundamentals if that isn't an option. Be the machine that your rifle is, always doing shit the same.

Also, use Frank's target with the many little circles and don't worry so much about the group... No one shoots anything 5 times in the same spot in real life I don't see how it got so popular. Even the Death Star only took one well aimed shot to put down...

Totally new myself, just repeating what I heard on here or the podcast as best I can. I'm sure the veterans will have more and better suggestions!

 

[broberson]

thanks grandpa! what podcast are you talking about? I'm an avid user of audible and podcasts

 

[GrandpaDeadLegs]

The podcast for this site is The Everyday Sniper, hosted by our gracious overlord Frank. He tells you what's up in an entertaining fashion and seems to have something worth hearing every episode.

The other one with a less experienced host but way more interviews is called Precision Rifle Media or Podcast, they changed names a while back. Some of these are a few years old...

 

[long range sponge]

Compared to most on here I'm an absolute ignoramus. Just a few questions to help us help you. What trigger are you using? What ammo/load have you used so far? Barrel twist? You also have to be conscious to have perfect follow through with a gas gun. Just trying to gather some info so that those with more knowledge than me will have better luck diagnosing the issue. Best of luck.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

A good trigger will make you shoot the rifle better, what do you have? If you're not reloading or using match ammo I doubt you'll see the results you want.

 

[jLorenzo]

I agree trigger and follow through. Hold the trigger back until well after the shot is fired.
Try some Hornady Black 75gr bthp. It's cheaper but I've seen it shoot much better tthan expensive match ammo, it's a little slow velocity wise but gas guns like that.

 

[Precision Underground]

It’s not about holding steady on target and squeezing the trigger without moving. You have to deliberately drive the bullet to where you want it to go. That means zero....ZERO anticipation or reaction to the shot breaking and full focus on the intent of driving the bullet into your target. Have someone’s else load your mag every time and have them add an unknown number of snap caps or non-primed blanks. Or if you reload and can make non-primed blanks you can mix live rounds and the blanks up on a table and load them yourself while looking away so you don’t know where they are in the mag. When you pull the trigger and it goes click instead of bang there should be absolutely no movement and the surprise should NOT be that it didn’t go bang. The surprise should be that you did not see the dirt fly or the bullet impact the target. Then you will know your focus is in the correct place. I thought it was impossible to shoot without blinking until I got my focus where it needed to be.

 

[broberson]

This all sounds great, everyone. Thanks for the input. My current build list is:
current equipment:

geissele SSA-E Trigger
magpull UBR 2.0 stock
bravo co gunfighter mod 0 grip
seekins upper & lower
bushnell DMRII-i w G3 reticle
18” stainless krieger barrel 1:8 twist

I had a bunch of ammo documented, but I since realized I never torqued down my scope. After doing so, I was about a 12 inches high, basically rendering everything I had collected useless. The ammo I have used so far:

.223
Federal-
69 gr SMK BTHP
73 gr GMB OTM
77gr SMK BTHP

Hornady-
Black 75gr BTHP
Match 75gr BTHP
Superformance Match 75gr BTHP
Match 73gr ELD

All the ammo performed pretty good, with an occaisional flyer here and there. I’m planning on repeating all the tests to see which one has the best precision and go from there.

 

[Rlb40x]

I've had stray shots caused by the rifles "natural point of aim" forcing to much left or right into the rear bag and twisting on the bipod VS moving the front of the rifle a bit.
Also, make sure each shot surprises you when it goes of. If you force the shot when you think your centered, there's a good chance it will be out of the group. Im not an expert by any means, just a couple things that I watch for and seem to help.
The more you shoot, the better you will get.

 

[elfster1234]

Bullet selection, bullet selection, bullet selection... reloading makes a huge difference. Sometimes even a good barrel might take 200 rounds to start producing good groups.

 

[Precision Underground]

I've had stray shots caused by the rifles "natural point of aim" forcing to much left or right into the rear bag and twisting on the bipod VS moving the front of the rifle a bit.
Also, make sure each shot surprises you when it goes of. If you force the shot when you think your centered, there's a good chance it will be out of the group. Im not an expert by any means, just a couple things that I watch for and seem to help.
The more you shoot, the better you will get.

I disagree 100%. You do not want the shot to surprise you. If it surprises you you are not being deliberate. If it surprises you you are trying to hold on target and hoping that when the shot breaks it will go where it is supposed to go. Don’t try to hold on target and then slowly squeeze the trigger. Look through the scope and deliberately send the bullet to the target.

 

[Diver160651]

While you need to see the target, the focus needs to on the reticle.

Guys get jacked all the time looking for the impact or new hole in the group, unknowingly looking past the reticle. Or suddenly thinking of all the other fundamentals and move without even knowing it.

I am sure that’s what @jpgolffl was saying

 

[Precision Underground]

While you need to see the target, the focus needs to on the reticle.

Guys get jacked all the time looking for the impact or new hole in the group, unknowingly looking past the reticle. Or suddenly thinking of all the other fundamentals and move without even knowing it.

I am sure that’s what @jpgolffl was saying

Kind of, not exactly. For me my focus needs to be on the task, hit the target with the bullet. Subconscious can easily (and more effectively) take care of the details as long as your fundamentals are sound and the focus is in the correct place to allow it to. Holding a reticle on a spot is an extremely simple task, I see no need to place conscious focus there. If the focus is to hit the target, we know the reticle has to be on target to do that and it is automatically taken care of. Bonus, so are all of the other details as long as you do a little work and build some fundamentals.

I used to play and teach a lot of golf. I think that’s where my thoughts on this came from. It always amazed me how quickly someone could improve just from changing their focus. Most people are focusing on some tip they heard, “set the wrists”, “shift your weight”, “keep your head down”, etc... While golf is incredibly difficult to master, it’s not that hard to hit an immobile ball with a stick. When people get out of their head and just hit the ball with the stick their ballstriking improves instantly.

Holding a reticle on a target and pulling the trigger without reacting or moving the rifle is incredibly easy once you get out of your head and put your focus where it needs to be. It’s really not that hard.

 

[Diver160651]

Kind of, not exactly. For me my focus needs to be on the task, hit the target with the bullet. Subconscious can easily (and more effectively) take care of the details as long as your fundamentals are sound and the focus is in the correct place to allow it to. Holding a reticle on a spot is an extremely simple task, I see no need to place conscious focus there. If the focus is to hit the target, we know the reticle has to be on target to do that and it is automatically taken care of. Bonus, so are all of the other details as long as you do a little work and build some fundamentals.

I used to play and teach a lot of golf. I think that’s where my thoughts on this came from. It always amazed me how quickly someone could improve just from changing their focus. Most people are focusing on some tip they heard, “set the wrists”, “shift your weight”, “keep your head down”, etc... While golf is incredibly difficult to master, it’s not that hard to hit an immobile ball with a stick. When people get out of their head and just hit the ball with the stick their ballstriking improves instantly.

Holding a reticle on a target and pulling the trigger without reacting or moving the rifle is incredibly easy once you get out of your head and put your focus where it needs to be. It’s really not that hard.

I get what you are saying.. To some degree, we are absolutely saying the same thing the fundamentals have to be in place, so they are not being a distraction. But I promise, if one looses focus of where that reticle is and shifts the main focus to the target, they are asking for trouble, when things get complex and pressured..

I as well as a bunch of others, have blown lost of shots in matches taking the focus off the reticle.. Sure we see it, but it is fairly common if one is having a bad day for us to start looking for that "hit" and focusing too much on the target, letting the reticle slip. That's one reason some people shoot smaller (angular measured) groups at a distance of 300 vrs 100, one reason we power down (other than field of view) and shoot better off wonky positions. This is why the dummy round drill works, because the shooter knows they need to watch the reticle more so than their group/target impacts and get to spot their flinch without the recoil distraction.

I am not saying anything is tough, especial once the shooter has good fundamentals; but what I read, maybe I misunderstood in your posts, is that you are promoting really focusing on the "target". Our scoped world is a bit more like the front sight of the pistol, than it is target focused like a shotgun. If I misunderstood, I am sure someone else might too.

@broberson, you might want to ask @Lowlight about his classes. I am sure you'll learn good fundamentals, including to focus on the reticle and do so MUCH faster and cheaper in the long run than a bunch of us interneting...

 

[Subwrx300]

Can I ask who made your Krieger barrel? Krieger direct or from another shop using a Krieger blank?

 

[Precision Underground]

I get what you are saying.. To some degree, we are absolutely saying the same thing the fundamentals have to be in place, so they are not being a distraction. But I promise, if one looses focus of where that reticle is and shifts the main focus to the target, they are asking for trouble, when things get complex and pressured..

I as well as a bunch of others, have blown lost of shots in matches taking the focus off the reticle.. Sure we see it, but it is fairly common if one is having a bad day for us to start looking for that "hit" and focusing too much on the target, letting the reticle slip. That's one reason some people shoot smaller (angular measured) groups at a distance of 300 vrs 100, one reason we power down (other than field of view) and shoot better off wonky positions. This is why the dummy round drill works, because the shooter knows they need to watch the reticle more so than their group/target impacts and get to spot their flinch without the recoil distraction.

I am not saying anything is tough, especial once the shooter has good fundamentals; but what I read, maybe I misunderstood in your posts, is that you are promoting really focusing on the "target". Our scoped world is a bit more like the front sight of the pistol, than it is target focused like a shotgun. If I misunderstood, I am sure someone else might too.

@broberson, you might want to ask @Lowlight about his classes. I am sure you'll learn good fundamentals, including to focus on the reticle and do so MUCH faster and cheaper in the long run than a bunch of us interneting...

No not focusing on the target. Focusing on the task, hitting the target with the bullet. And I mean mental focus not eye focus. My eye focus is not on anything specific. My eyes MONITOR the target/reticle relationship with my mind focused on the task of hitting the target with the bullet. When someone is told to “focus on the reticle” they usually want to hyperfocus their mind and eyes on it and then they are paralyzed while trying to hold it perfect and everything becomes much more difficult.

 

[Lowlight]

Get some training from a well respected PR Instructor

 

[_Windrider_]

Get some training from a well respected PR Instructor

In other words, become a student of the pupil of the tactical rifle.

 

[Diver160651]

In other words, become a student of the pupil of the tactical rifle.

A bit off topic-

I can’t see or hear that phrase ever sense the whole “tactical rifles” thing.. without seeing @Lowlight ’s parody video in my brain.... “head on a swivel”.

Point being, those TR guys had a lot of people snowed, just as some guys teaching classes today. I think it is super important to get instruction, but you have to be more careful than ever. Classes marketed as “Sniper1” or “Sniper2” are still letting guys out putting their bi-pods on backwards all the while thinking they are snipery even though they have no fieldcraft or real understanding of a lot of basics.. While it might sound super cool, is the product really giving you what you need?

If I was looking for instruction, the location and ease of finding a “class” would be very distant from who was teaching and the products (people’s Skills) they turn out.

Just my 2cents

 

[_Windrider_]

A bit off topic-

I can’t see or hear that phrase ever sense the whole “tactical rifles” thing.. without seeing @Lowlight ’s parody video in my brain.... “head on a swivel”.

Point being, those TR guys had a lot of people snowed, just as some guys teaching classes today. I think it is super important to get instruction, but you have to be more careful than ever. Classes marketed as “Sniper1” or “Sniper2” are still letting guys out putting their bi-pods on backwards all the while thinking they are snipery even though they have no fieldcraft or real understanding of a lot of basics.. While it might sound super cool, is the product really giving you what you need?

If I was looking for instruction, the location and ease of finding a “class” would be very distant from who was teaching and the products (people’s Skills) they turn out.

Just my 2cents

no the best line is the " what we have here is a night vision bridge...OPERATOR AS FUCK with one of these!"

 

[Lowlight]

 

[Precision Underground]

When I first saw that I had only seen LL being serious in videos which made it that much more hilarious.

@Lowlight Where is your mental focus when shooting? I really feel like getting my focus/attention in the correct place(correct place for me anyway) made the biggest difference. I did the online training and practiced everything over and over when I first got on here but never really improved until my focus shifted outward. It is the exact feeling/focus needed to play good golf. It is a detached interest feeling almost like watching it happen and not thinking about anything. I was never into Star Wars but for an analogy, I wasn't using "the force".

Don't get me wrong, it's not at all to say the online training didn't help because it did. But at the time I thought it didn't. I'm sure what it was is that I built good fundamentals that could not really be put to good use until I got my head right.

 

[Diver160651]

I wonder how many people watch this and have no idea of the true production value or how many places fun is poked.

GOLD

 

[_Windrider_]

1:13

 

[10ring1]

When I first saw that I had only seen LL being serious in videos which made it that much more hilarious.

@Lowlight Where is your mental focus when shooting? I haven't been at this for too long but I have improved a ton from where I started. I really feel like getting my focus/attention in the correct place(correct place for me anyway) made the biggest difference. I did the online training and practiced everything over and over but never really improved until my focus shifted outward. It is the exact feeling/focus needed to play good golf. It is a detached interest feeling almost like watching it happen and not thinking about anything. I was never into Star Wars but for an analogy, I wasn't using "the force".

Don't get me wrong, it's not at all to say the online training didn't help because it did. But at the time I thought it didn't. I'm sure what it was is that I built good fundamentals that could not really be put to good use until I got my head right.

Agree 100 percent. I firmly believe that accuracy, when equipment can be ruled out as a strong contributing variable, is a state of mind. I too passively go through the motions when shooting for groups at 100 yds. When shooting groups, I displace concentration as i have realized when I am hyperfocused, I often get in my own mind and really screw it up. For instance, shooting that five shot group or the last group on a good target is a sure fire screw up. I'll have 4 in one hole and the 5th in an inch out. When I find the Zen State or the force state as you refer, and don't think about it too much, I have always found I am much more consistent

 

[Diver160651]

I don’t know about all this zen shit and the Star Wars technique of willing a bullet on target seems great.. But again, I just don’t know about that stuff.

What I do know, is alot of people find holes in their approach and fundamentals when task loaded.

When the fundamentals are practiced and engrained, there isn’t much else to look at but the wind and reticle.

A good example are first time positional shooters, often they might get 3 of 10 off, maybe even all misses. The RO calls time and they’re looking star stuck trying to figure out where the time went. They might be practicing the art of zen, but they obviously had to work out to many details. During that process, time and the reticle position during the brake, were both working against them.

 

[Lowlight]

My focus is on the reticle and target relationship, the reticle is where the bullet will go and making sure it does not drift off the target is key

 

[Rlb40x]

I disagree 100%. You do not want the shot to surprise you. If it surprises you you are not being deliberate. If it surprises you you are trying to hold on target and hoping that when the shot breaks it will go where it is supposed to go. Don’t try to hold on target and then slowly squeeze the trigger. Look through the scope and deliberately send the bullet to the target.

I disagree 100%. You do not want the shot to surprise you. If it surprises you you are not being deliberate. If it surprises you you are trying to hold on target and hoping that when the shot breaks it will go where it is supposed to go. Don’t try to hold on target and then slowly squeeze the trigger. Look through the scope and deliberately send the bullet to the target.

i guess those USMC marksmanship instructors don’t know what they are talking about then.
Go to Paris Island and start giving pointers, then hang on to your ass lol

 

[bigjake83]

Just go ask GARANDMAN she is our newly-appointed semi automatic specialist.

 

[garandman]

Is there anything else anyone can suggest to help me get to the 0.5 moa I see some of you badasses post up here?

Thanks for the info

Loading / testing you own ammo. Not just cheaper than factry ammo, its an absolute necessity to find what shoots best in you gun.

 

[garandman]

Just go ask GARANDMAN she is our newly-appointed semi automatic specialist.

Find a hobby OTHER THAN me, troll.

 

[garandman]

I don’t know about all this zen shit and the Star Wars technique of willing a bullet on target seems great.. But again, I just don’t know about that stuff.

What I do know, is alot of people find holes in their approach and fundamentals when task loaded.

When the fundamentals are practiced and engrained, there isn’t much else to look at but the wind and reticle.

Yup. Fundamentals > > > zen BS (and there's AlOT of it in this forum)

 

[bigjake83]

Find a hobby OTHER THAN me, troll.

I thought I was on your ignore list!? Now this just takes all the fun out of shitting on you. ?

Sadly enough enough you still feel qualified to give advice on marksmanship even after Low Light, the owner of this website told you himself you're a dumbass and can't shoot for shit....lol. ???


Sorry OP, now back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

[garandman]

I thought I was on your ignore list!? Now this just takes all the fun out of shitting on you. ?

Sadly enough enough you still feel qualified to give advice on marksmanship even after Low Light, the owner of this website told you himself you're a dumbass and can't shoot for shit....lol. ???

Wow. What a sad existence you live. To insult and demean others. SO you can feel better about yourself.

I took you off ignore hoping you were having a bad day. My mistake. I see now its low character / lack of basic human decency.

To the OP....my apologies for this crap in your thread. I'll ignore this cretan. I would humbly encourage you sir to consider hand loading your own ammo to get those 0.50 MoA groups. It really is necessary. Best wishes.

 

[tunaman]

Thanks Precision Underground for the suggestion of mixing in inert rounds - I’m going to start incorporating that into my range sessions as it makes great sense.

Thanks OP for starting the thread - some useful discussion here for sure.

 

[Back Spin]

I teach pistol marksmanship a lot at work. In that context a surprise break can work in the context of one shot with no time limit, but I’ve found the “surprise break” to be limiting to the shooters growth.

I’ve come to phrase the mindset as “allowing” the shot to happen while you focus on your job (applying sight picture and press). Focus has to be on technique. Often we have to break the shot in a compressed timeframe. In those cases I’ll say one needs to apply their technique aggressively. I’m very conscious of not using the terms “fast” or “slow” because I find those terms can take one’s focus off of the technique.

The above tips work well for pistols. I think there can be some carryover to precision rifle.