Rifle Scopes Questions on switching scope between rifles: Repeatable rings, Razor G2

[beetroot]

Long story short I have multiple rifles, some that see a lot of use and others that don't and would like too play musical scopes on a frequent basis.

I've tested my current scopes with Burris XTR rings and and seeing them very repeatable in vertical but horizontally I'm getting up to 2mils either left or right from zero.
Am I correct in thinking this would be due to the XTR rings double clamp design and would likely have no issues with normal rings like the Vorterx/seekins rings?

I would like to buy a Razor G2 3-18 for use on my 223 but have the ability to switch it to my 17hmr which I use very little. Does the Ltec turret design make this possible?
On first glance it looks like it wont work but rather than loosening the set screws and turning the middle section like normal can you just unlock reposition the outer turret?
In theory seem's like it'd be possible but would effect the position on the zero stop.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Don't do it. Its a waste of time and ammo.

1 gun = 1 scope.

If you can't afford to glass your guns you cant afford your guns.

 

[beetroot]

Don't do it. Its a waste of time and ammo.

1 gun = 1 scope.

If you can't afford to glass your guns you cant afford your guns.

Nothing to do with can't afford specific scopes but thanks for your concern.

 

[hlee]

Musical scopes gets old, fast. RTZ mounts usually don’t, at least not to the extent that is acceptable for a precision rifle. I’ve got a “floater” scope set up in a pic rail mount that I can relatively quickly mount on a new gun to hit the range- on a temp basis. But, like crabs said, long term this is a waste of ammo and time. A temp solution to a new rifle? Sure. But, it is a long term exercise in frustration. If you insist on heading down this path, I’d not waste a lot of money looking for the perfect RTZ mount, you’ll need it to buy ammo to re-zero your rifles.

 

[black5.3]

I would agree swapping scopes does get old but i have done it until funds allowed me to outfit all my bolt guns with their own scope. I would also say that no rings/mount are 100% return to zero(at least in my experience)I usually had to adjust zero a small amount to get my zero back perfect(easy to do on the gen 2 razor). My advice is buy a good quality mount or rings and always reinstall the exact same way and torque to the same value with a quality torque wrench. That will get you as close as you’re going to get.

 

[beetroot]

I would agree swapping scopes does get old but i have done it until funds allowed me to outfit all my bolt guns with their own scope. I would also say that no rings/mount are 100% return to zero(at least in my experience)I usually had to adjust zero a small amount to get my zero back perfect(easy to do on the gen 2 razor). My advice is buy a good quality mount or rings and always reinstall the exact same way and torque to the same value with a quality torque wrench. That will get you as close as you’re going to get.

I take it you zero the Razor using the standard clickless method?
Do they Ltec turrets work well enough that you can re-zero in only 1 or 2 shots?

I've found the clickless turret zero stop in the PST takes a few more shots to re-zero than "standard clicks".
Lends me to just leave the zero stop alone if I re-zero for some reason.

 

[sandwarrior]

Instead of swapping your best scope onto a rifle you rarely use, think about a low-cost type scope with some of the whiz bang features like your expensive scope for the .17
Just keep the reticle the same, mil or moa, and you can get enough commonality that you're not trying to rethink hold-offs just on reticle alone. You'll have a much bigger issue with the ballistics of those two rounds.

In any case, nothing wrong with buying a good rifle and waiting for a top notch scope for it. If that's what you intend it to be. As noted above, swapping back and forth gets to be a pain, and then you may not always remember which zero you have it on.

 

[Steel head]

I find scope swapping a pain in the ass but my ARC M10 rings are really good at going back to basically zero if remounted carefully.

 

[Secant]

Like others said, playing musical scopes gets pretty old and is a pain. Shit, playing musical bipods gets old.

Precision rifle isn't horseshoes or hand grenades.

 

[hlee]

Shit, playing musical bipods gets old.

Yeah, I take the bipods off of my rifles when I put them in the safe, so they play nicer together all lined up. Now I am missing a bipod. Fuck...

 

[King_beardsly]

I played musical bipod once, and never want to play again. Now on the topic of swapping the scope back and forth, it’s doable but it’s going to be a pain in the ass after a while. Plus have the ability to just grab a rifle and go shoot if needed instead of having to remount the optic with the hopes it’s good enough at that exact moment

 

[seansmd]

I would never trust that it's the same zero after the swap without re-verifying.

 

[Secant]

Yeah, I take the bipods off of my rifles when I put them in the safe, so they play nicer together all lined up. Now I am missing a bipod. Fuck...

Huh. I had a similar problem, but I just went ahead and got another safe

 

[equilibrium]

You could always try something like a bobro qd which have a very tight and very repeatable lockup if you have pic rails across the action(s). You will then need to remeber where you are at on the dial for the zero for each gun.

 

[hlee]

Huh. I had a similar problem, but I just went ahead and got another safe

Me too...

 

[seansmd]

Also, rather than re-zero if they always have the same offset, zero for the main rifle, and enter the offsets in your ballistic app for the second.

Shein this only works if it's repeatable swap to swap.

 

[clark33]

What about the AI rifles and swapping barrels and calibers? I’m assuming using the same scope for multiple barrels? Wouldn’t these basically require re-zeroing after switching cal and barrel each time? Just curious, I’m too poor to actually own one

 

[FishDr]

I take it you zero the Razor using the standard clickless method?
Do they Ltec turrets work well enough that you can re-zero in only 1 or 2 shots?

I've found the clickless turret zero stop in the PST takes a few more shots to re-zero than "standard clicks".
Lends me to just leave the zero stop alone if I re-zero for some reason.

I've done this with my G2 Razor... marked the inside dial with a red fine point for one gun, and a blue for the other. It would go back and forth to w/in a .1 or .2 if I was careful with how I mounted and torqued to the same values. I struggled with re-zeroing the PST 2 as well... then I started backing off the dial and going back to the adjustment from the same direction. Not sure if this does anything, but "taking the slack out of the dials" like my toolmaker mentor said seemed to make re-zeroing more consistent with that model.

What about the AI rifles and swapping barrels and calibers? I’m assuming using the same scope for multiple barrels? Wouldn’t these basically require re-zeroing after switching cal and barrel each time? Just curious, I’m too poor to actually own one

On the switch barrels, I basically do the same as above... dial the offset between the two calibers (although mine isnt an AI).

I agree with all the above... switching is a pain in the neck... but I've had occasions where I've had to do it. Good luck @beetroot

 

[black5.3]

I take it you zero the Razor using the standard clickless method?
Do they Ltec turrets work well enough that you can re-zero in only 1 or 2 shots?

I've found the clickless turret zero stop in the PST takes a few more shots to re-zero than "standard clicks".
Lends me to just leave the zero stop alone if I re-zero for some reason.

Thats correct, to dial in my zero exactly where i want it i re zero with the “clickless” method. You could do it either way but saves a little confusion and like i stated earlier, i can get my zero dialed in perfect.

 

[beetroot]

I've done this with my G2 Razor... marked the inside dial with a red fine point for one gun, and a blue for the other. It would go back and forth to w/in a .1 or .2 if I was careful with how I mounted and torqued to the same values. I struggled with re-zeroing the PST 2 as well... then I started backing off the dial and going back to the adjustment from the same direction. Not sure if this does anything, but "taking the slack out of the dials" like my toolmaker mentor said seemed to make re-zeroing more consistent with that model.

On the switch barrels, I basically do the same as above... dial the offset between the two calibers (although mine isnt an AI).

I agree with all the above... switching is a pain in the neck... but I've had occasions where I've had to do it. Good luck @beetroot

What rings/mounts do you use?
Seems like the ARC M10 rings are pretty repeatable, I'm guessing my horizontal spreading is just due to the Burris clamp design.

 

[beetroot]

Instead of swapping your best scope onto a rifle you rarely use, think about a low-cost type scope with some of the whiz bang features like your expensive scope for the .17
Just keep the reticle the same, mil or moa, and you can get enough commonality that you're not trying to rethink hold-offs just on reticle alone. You'll have a much bigger issue with the ballistics of those two rounds.

In any case, nothing wrong with buying a good rifle and waiting for a top notch scope for it. If that's what you intend it to be. As noted above, swapping back and forth gets to be a pain, and then you may not always remember which zero you have it on.

Ultimately this is probably what I'll have to do but was hoping to give the musical scopes thing a try.
I'd starting standardizing on the Burris XTR rings for the offset inserts but may have to rethink that strategy, or at least try something different.

For one reason or another I've always had a tendency to swap things around on the rifles I don't use so much, and until now I've had a whole bunch of different mount set ups so wasn't just a case of undo rings and install on new rifle.
I have can re-zero my rifles at home so final adjustments only takes a few minutes.

 

[beetroot]

What about the AI rifles and swapping barrels and calibers? I’m assuming using the same scope for multiple barrels? Wouldn’t these basically require re-zeroing after switching cal and barrel each time? Just curious, I’m too poor to actually own one

I know there are people here who switch scopes for different barrels as I recall seeing it mentioned in other threads, hence wanting to see what exact rings/mounts are recommended as my Burris ones clearly aren't repeatable.

Not exactly a common rifle on this forum but the Blaser R93/R8 is known for extremely reliable RTZ mounts, so it can be done.

 

[FishDr]

What rings/mounts do you use?
Seems like the ARC M10 rings are pretty repeatable, I'm guessing my horizontal spreading is just due to the Burris clamp design.

I used the Seekins Precision rings and the Vortex PMR. I tried it with a set of "quick detach" and the repeatability wasn't nearly as good.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I used the Seekins Precision rings and the Vortex PMR. I tried it with a set of "quick detach" and the repeatability wasn't nearly as good.

Thatls because it was not Bobro or GDI, which are the only 2 QD mounts that are repeatable enough for a precision rifle.

However their durrability is the question and will always be inferior to a solid 1 piece base toqued or a set of quality rings.

Precision guns always get a solid mount.

 

[atvman400]

Like everyone else said if you do decide to go the separate scope for separate rifle route to make sure to get similar reticles. I find that even switching between scopes with MOA holds I have to really think to remember how big the holds. You find a scope that you really like, buy a bunch of them. Search the classifieds for people getting rid of them because they haven't found the scope that suits them yet.

 

[hlee]

What about the AI rifles and swapping barrels and calibers? I’m assuming using the same scope for multiple barrels? Wouldn’t these basically require re-zeroing after switching cal and barrel each time? Just curious, I’m too poor to actually own one

Not an AI, so take it for what it is worth, but... I sighted in the scope on my ar15 recently, but shortly thereafter needed to remove the barrel. I did so and reinstalled it without removing the scope from the upper receiver. Took the rifle out again to sight it in and it was right on. And, this is with an upper that has a not super tight barrel/upper interface.

 

[morganlamprecht]

i dont play musical scopes, but both of my impact comp rifles have Warne mountain tech rings on them and ive had them both apart (rings off rail, but still on scope), multiple times over the years for various reasons and they are always within .1 or perfect when i put them back together...id have no issues taking the scope off, putting it back on, and sending a round at something

you can change the L tec zero by spinning the outer turret as long as you dont need to go .5 mil below zero because of the stop, but your outer turret wont be zero'd. with the set screws loose on the turret, the center stem wont track with the outer going...down i believe, going up i think it just moves with it iirc...been a long time since i messed with it

when i ran my AI/gen 2 combo more and had a bunch of barrels for it, i just noted the center turret settings for each barrel...when i screwed on that barrel, i changed the center stem with it

 

[beetroot]

you can change the L tec zero by spinning the outer turret as long as you dont need to go .5 mil below zero because of the stop, but your outer turret wont be zero'd. with the set screws loose on the turret, the center stem wont track with the outer going...down i believe, going up i think it just moves with it iirc...been a long time since i messed with it

It sound's like my theory with the Ltec turret does work then, you just mess up your zero stop position.

when i ran my AI/gen 2 combo more and had a bunch of barrels for it, i just noted the center turret settings for each barrel...when i screwed on that barrel, i changed the center stem with it

Your now the second person who says they've done that, I'm kinda surprised that the middle markings are that accurate.

I've managed to track down some spare rings from a mate so will do the test again with different rings, that way I'll know for sure if its the Burris rings or not.

 

[Cheyenne Bodie]

Don't do it. Its a waste of time and ammo.

1 gun = 1 scope.

If you can't afford to glass your guns you cant afford your guns.

I totally agree with the sentiment in general, but when it comes to my NV scope I moved it between rifles quite a bit before building a dedicated rifle for it. Even now, I switch it on to rimfires for varminting. I'm not spending another ~1500$ minimum to scope out a 400$ rimfire, even if I had money like that I wouldn't for long spending it like that. Yea, yea, clip ons and whatnots exist too, but that's a whole nother barrel of monkeys as well— and half of them aren't gonna mount to my scope ring only bolt actions or the entry level optics I have on them otherwise.

 

[Firegrunt03]

You could always try something like a bobro qd which have a very tight and very repeatable lockup if you have pic rails across the action(s). You will then need to remeber where you are at on the dial for the zero for each gun.

I usually mark the rails with my knife. An old grunt trick.

 

[PR3AK]

I do this .....its not optimal ....at all but it allows me to go from my ar platforms to my bolt guns...

Using geissele mounts....... now granted I haven't done zero shift tests.....

But having 3 different rifles always go back to their paint pen color zero is close enough for me at this point in my shooting .

And you have to get used to ar15 height rings.....which hasn't been horrible

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

If I wanted repeatability between rifles I'd opt for a 1 piece base and rings.

https://f3rmachine.com/product/1-35-height-34mm-20-moa-one-piece-scope-mount/

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

Don't do it. Its a waste of time and ammo.

1 gun = 1 scope.

If you can't afford to glass your guns you cant afford your guns.

I've always dedicated one scope to one rifle.
Simply because each rifle has been zeroed with that scope.

Plus having a joint account with my Babe, she has veto authority, or else I'd be taking out a second mortgage after a trip to the local firearms dealer.

 

[beetroot]

Despite horrendous weather (rain and a very very gusty tail wind) and lying in the very long grass in the paddock beside my house, I repeated the test with a pair of Nightforce Ultralite rings today. Shot six targets (so five removal/installations of the scope) at 35m with my 22lr.

Considering the poor shooting position, bad weather and the fact that I didn't even use a torque wrench when remounting between groups, I was pretty happy with the results.
Despite the poor groups the centre of the groups is pretty consistent, the extreme horizonal error I saw with the Burris rings was gone, and the vertical spread is pretty consistent across all six groups and is likely due to the extreme weather.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that scope switch can be done reliably and will attempt to trial it once my new scope and mount arrives.
Perhaps after a long term test I'll report back with my thoughts on whether or not it's a practical solution.

 

[army_eod]

You will never return to original zero. Maybe close. But then every time you change an ammo lot or load you have to zero again.

 

[NDSU]

You’ll be fine; try it. You’ll be close and don’t you usually fire a round or two to check your zero or foul the bore anyway? It’s not a waste of time and ammo; all trigger time is good.

 

[wade2big]

Long story short I have multiple rifles, some that see a lot of use and others that don't and would like too play musical scopes on a frequent basis.

I've tested my current scopes with Burris XTR rings and and seeing them very repeatable in vertical but horizontally I'm getting up to 2mils either left or right from zero.
Am I correct in thinking this would be due to the XTR rings double clamp design and would likely have no issues with normal rings like the Vorterx/seekins rings?

I would like to buy a Razor G2 3-18 for use on my 223 but have the ability to switch it to my 17hmr which I use very little. Does the Ltec turret design make this possible?
On first glance it looks like it wont work but rather than loosening the set screws and turning the middle section like normal can you just unlock reposition the outer turret?
In theory seem's like it'd be possible but would effect the position on the zero stop.

Big mistake using a Razor gen ii to swap between rifles. The Ltec zeroing method is not nearly as repeatable as other scopes that you dial the actual turret to zero. Razor’s are my favorite scope but the zeroing procedure is sub par.

 

[PR3AK]

When you go between rifles you set the zero stop on the rifle that requires the most out of your elevation turret......

In my case I set my scopes zero stop on my 300wsm because it had a 20 moa rail on it.....

My 6.5 creed was basically 20 moa up and a few over..... marked with paint pens.... I have swapped my scope through about 4 different rifles........

It actually let's me know somthings wrong if they don't shoot very close.

Another reason is I have (had) a 5x25 and a 3x15....
When I shoot for groups I throw on the 25....
when I just want a lighter set up I throw on the 3x15 or a 1x4......

A good rail and mount like geissele ,a warne worked well enough (not shooting f class here) at much less cost....

And yes in a perfect world every rifle would have an optic blah blah.......but what if you don't know your going to keep said rifle or optic?

And then how do you know your actually going to be happy with said rifle or optic.

This actually gave me more trigger time, elevation dials, and overall usage on the one scope when sharing between the 4 rifles ......


And no I'm not claiming that the accuracy cannot change when doing something like this.....but again for the type of shooting I'm doing and the accuracy im looking for ,it is working FOR ME mainly range play....not competing or anything.

also this let's me really decide if I like said rifle or scope....

always confirm your zero......but I'd be confident even if I didn't because I've done it soo much(For range play)

If I where competing or going to war I would have my optic locked in.......duh ....but im not doing either of those things.

As a side note even though this works it can be problematic with certain combos.....the warne mount can cause extraction issues on a bolt gun....

Sorry for the long wind

 

[UpSideDown]

If I was going to do this I would use a unimount style like a Spuhr, Scalarworks, Badger, LaRue. Not two separate rings.

The thought of needing to rezero every single gun every time I shoot makes me want to sell all of my guns and live in a cave.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I have a few Zco that rotate through rifles. They all have a mostly permanent home. But I have other rifles that I don’t use as much. Instead of either putting cheaper glass on them or buying another $10k+ worth of glass, I just move an optic when I need to.

If you do any amount of shooting, swapping an optic and zero’ing it take a matter of minutes. It’s not a big deal. Buy an optic for every rifle or swap optics, whatever you want. Only suggestion I have is to make sure you have at least two of your chosen optics if you can afford it. Or at least have a cheaper optic that performs well mechanically as a backup. Never know when you’ll need a backup optic.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If I was going to do this I would use a unimount style like a Spuhr, Scalarworks, Badger, LaRue. Not two separate rings.

The thought of needing to rezero every single gun every time I shoot makes me want to sell all of my guns and live in a cave.

You will find zero difference in repeatability in a quality set of rings and a quality single mount. Once the optic is properly mounted in the separate rings, they don’t move and can be swapped on an off without issue.

 

[UpSideDown]

You will find zero difference in repeatability in a quality set of rings and a quality single mount. Once the optic is properly mounted in the separate rings, they don’t move and can be swapped on an off without issue.

I'm not concerned about the rings moving, I'm concerned about the picatinny rails and whatever coating may be on them on other guns. The more you can keep it consistent the more I imagine you can keep your zero written down, rather than needing to figure it out from a start. It might not matter at all though if you're getting zero in a few rounds anyways.

 

[PR3AK]

As said using geissele mounts.....a wheeler fat wrench......I'm confident enough that id have no problem shooting at a critter up to 300 yards without checking my zero........

But then again I actually get out and use and test my stuff........not just keyboarding

I'm not concerned about the rings moving, I'm concerned about the picatinny rails and whatever coating may be on them on other guns. The more you can keep it consistent the more I imagine you can keep your zero written down, rather than needing to figure it out from a start. It might not matter at all though if you're getting zero in a few rounds anyways.

Uh thats what a paint pen is for... and when I confirm zero it does not take "a few rounds" if I confirm at all it usually just takes 1.

So what about when I build my switch barrel action .......and have at least 3 different calibers
Being run by the same scope...... that I'd likely be switching out at the range ?

You think I'm going to go through the trouble of setting a zero stop for each one?
Hahahaha no....

 

[beetroot]

I have a few Zco that rotate through rifles. They all have a mostly permanent home. But I have other rifles that I don’t use as much. Instead of either putting cheaper glass on them or buying another $10k+ worth of glass, I just move an optic when I need to.

If you do any amount of shooting, swapping an optic and zero’ing it take a matter of minutes. It’s not a big deal. Buy an optic for every rifle or swap optics, whatever you want. Only suggestion I have is to make sure you have at least two of your chosen optics if you can afford it. Or at least have a cheaper optic that performs well mechanically as a backup. Never know when you’ll need a backup optic.

This is exactly what I'm thinking, a couple of scopes that are the same or similar that will swap between a few rifles.
I don't intend to swap every range session but I have rifles that are used almost daily and others that do not.

I've orded a Delta Stryker which has toolless turrets and a Eratac one piece mount.
Based on my quick test with the Nightforce rings I don't think I'll have too many issues.

Re-zeroing the scope will take all of 2 minutes and maybe 2 or 3 shots (if any).