quickload accuracy 338lm

[timelinex]

I've never had good data that is consistent with real results, come out of my quickload. I measure everything as recommended, but it is still always relatively way off.

Here are really two things that might be affecting it:

1. What do you guys use for the "weighting factor" for 338lm.

2. What "shot start pressure" do you guys use for bullets seated into the lands? It seems like most disagree with quickloads recommendation of 10k+

Also, have they updated burn rates or anything like that for powders like retumbo? I have an older version, and I know I can upgrade, but I don't have the will to spend more money and upgrade when I don't feel confident about its performance in the first place.

 

[Dogtown]

The only thing I do to calibrate it to my setup is to measure the real world H2O capacity averaged across 5 pieces of brass and adjust it accordingly in QL. Some guys adjust one of the burn-rate related values (a multiplier of some sort I think) to more closely match their chrono data, but personally I don't use QL for exacting accuracy. Instead I just treat it all as an approximation and helpful tool to suss out load development. Mind you, if you're using OBT method, you'll want to get those parameters matching real world as close as possible.

 

[RHunter]

I hate quickload for every reason you mentioned.

A reasonably accurate burn rate chart, 100 grains of capacity to play with, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to work something up.

Honestly, I really don't see it saving me a lot of time and components during a workup so I dont even use it anymore.

I know when I am pushing a 300 grain bullet I start hitting a wall at about 2850 and that same wall seems to be hit with every powder I have tried give or take 30 FPS either side of 2850... So if I have a new powder to try I can get away with one round per charge weight, roll up 10 to 12 rounds in .5 grain increments and when I find the one that gets close to 2850 then I can make 5 for each charge weight and I usually find that node within 1.5 grains of a charge that initially fell in that 2850fps range.

Doing this I can find the node with a max of 25 rounds. Pretty simple exercise, it's just a two visit to the range proposition so I like to have at least 3 powders to test or 3 bullet types to test to make it worth the trip.

 

[Kirkd]

Quickload will hep you narrow down some powder choice


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[RHunter]

Quickload will hep you narrow down some powder choice

If you need quickload to narrow down a powder choice, you shouldn't be reloading 338 Lapua Mag. This is not a beginner reloader cartridge, this is a cartridge that will kill you with the wrong powder choice.

 

[dabibbee]

Whoa RHunter! IMHO you are certainly entitled to your opinion of Quickload. I myself find it helpful in a number of ways. However I am NOT going to attack your opinion.

 

[Dogtown]

Quickload will hep you narrow down some powder choice

Agreed. One of the most valuable features in QL is being able to run graph across all powder types based on certain parameters. For instance, say you have a load that's working for you, but you'd like to squeeze some more velocity out of it. You can set it up to calculate a range of powders based on powder charge, case fill %, velocity, barrel time, etc I've used that numerous times to make sure I'm getting the most out of my load. Its predictive power is important, though you have to realize that it's a close ballpark and not take it at 100%. It's a very useful guide to narrow down your loads or experiment with ideas without having to load up a bunch of ammo and drive out to the range.

 

[dabibbee]

I have used it extensively with Chris Long's theory's of OBT, optimum barrel time. Quickload has helped to reduce load development time and after adjusting the powder burn rate is very close to the chronograph numbers with muzzle velocity.

 

[RHunter]

Whoa RHunter! IMHO you are certainly entitled to your opinion of Quickload. I myself find it helpful in a number of ways. However I am NOT going to attack your opinion.

I apologize if you thought my comment was an attack on the previous posters comment, it wasn't. I just would not be using quickload out the gate for 338 lapua. It has been (a little) helpful for me with my 30-06's considering how many powders will work in that cartridge. However, I agree with the OP 100%, the data coming out of quickload is not very accurate for 338 Lapua, when I use it I don't get the results it says I should get. So in my opinion that is what makes it dangerous for the 338 Lapua with a newbe reloader. I've seen a couple nasty, and heard of a couple nasty Kabooms or extreme over pressure issues with a 338 Lapua... Its not like a 300 blackout where you could cram any powder in the case and never have a catastrophic outcome, a 338 Lapua is a cartridge new reloaders really need to be careful with. Remember, we are not the only people that are going to be reading this.

Wasn't there a thread on here where some guy accidentally sub'd Varget for H1000 or something to that affect and it damn near took his head off? Granted that is an extreme example but I think if you are going to use quicload for a large magnum, you need a good working knowledge of powders first. Quickload has a bit of a learning curve.

 

[Dogtown]

If you sub Varget for H1000 in QL it will throw a huge bright red warning saying you've just selected a VERY dangerous powder charge. In fact, being able to track the pressure curve over time is another thing that's really helpful with QL.

 

[Kirkd]

quickload accuracy 338lm

If you need quickload to narrow down a powder choice, you shouldn't be reloading 338 Lapua Mag. This is not a beginner reloader cartridge, this is a cartridge that will kill you with the wrong powder choice.

Let me clarify this a little further for you. Quickload load NOT a substitute for a reloading manual. How I narrow powder down is buy ONLY looking at powder that I have load data from. Quickload will let you choose a totally inappropriately powder and spit data back to you.

I will look at things such as cartridge fill capacity, velocity, pressure, etc and just dissect it 6 ways to Sunday. The one variable that is not looked at in the program is primers. I only bring this up as. I reload shot shell and primers have a HUGE impact on pressure, 2-3k. Which may be a lot when we ar pushimg our loads to the upper limit of normal.


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[Kirkd]

Quickload has a bit of a learning curve.

Yeah, the manual could be better and there isn't a whole bunch of training on the net.



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[ChrisGarrett]

Whoa RHunter! IMHO you are certainly entitled to your opinion of Quickload. I myself find it helpful in a number of ways. However I am NOT going to attack your opinion.

It's a guide, like any other reloading manual is just a guide.

If people swear by it, then good for them. It's never intrigued me enough to try it over reading experienced comments here, or to utilize above and beyond my manuals.

I kind of agree with Hunter, in that if you're relying on QL to give you bona fide answers, you might be short changing yourself.

Many new reloaders want instant gratification and don't want to do the homework, either because they're lazy, or they don't want to spend the cash, or they don't want to burn out their throats. Whatever the reason, one can find start loads for free and they don't need QL to give them those starting points.

Hell, 338LM shooters have it easy now. I started back in February of '06 and there wasn't a lot of info, or choices, back then.

Let's face it, for target weight 338LM bullets (250s, 285s and 300s,) there are really only a few powders to consider. It's not like the 223, or 308 carts, where dozens of different powders work out.

We've had more come to market (RL-33) lately, but RL-25, Retumbo, US 869, H-1000, VV-165/170/N560/N570, MagPro, Win. 780 (?,) a couple of the Norma powders and that's about it for easily sourced offerings.

Chris

 

[Kirkd]

It's a guide, like any other reloading manual is just a guide.

If people swear by it, then good for them. It's never intrigued me enough to try it over reading experienced comments here, or to utilize above and beyond my manuals.

I kind of agree with Hunter, in that if you're relying on QL to give you bona fide answers, you might be short changing yourself.

Many new reloaders want instant gratification and don't want to do the homework, either because they're lazy, or they don't want to spend the cash, or they don't want to burn out their throats. Whatever the reason, one can find start loads for free and they don't need QL to give them those starting points.

Hell, 338LM shooters have it easy now. I started back in February of '06 and there wasn't a lot of info, or choices, back then.

Let's face it, for target weight 338LM bullets (250s, 285s and 300s,) there are really only a few powders to consider. It's not like the 223, or 308 carts, where dozens of different powders work out.

We've had more come to market (RL-33) lately, but RL-25, Retumbo, US 869, H-1000, VV-165/170/N560/N570, MagPro, Win. 780 (?,) a couple of the Norma powders and that's about it for easily sourced offerings.

Chris

Its a tool just like a reloading manual. Just because there is load data on a specific round, doesn't mean it will be a good powder. I'm speaking generalities as I don't load 338 lapau. If you don't think you need it, great. I personally reduce maximum charge by 7-10% and work up. I consult reloading multiple manuals, powder manufacturers website, and lastly quickload. With the powder supply issues plus cost, its nice to hammer down a powder that will meet your needs. That just my opinion.

Out of curiousity, does the 338 lapau take magnum primers? If do, that could be a potential culprit as to why the chrono doesn't equal quicload results. Plus there can be up to a 10% difference from lot to lot, which is clearly indicated in the programs manual. Probably why I never get the same results from the reloading manual to my actual results.


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[RHunter]

If you sub Varget for H1000 in QL it will throw a huge bright red warning saying you've just selected a VERY dangerous powder charge.

I am pretty sure it was not intentional.

 

[Dogtown]

Well, it wasn't clear from your post whether you thought that QL would warn you of a dangerous powder charge, so I was just being thorough.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Its a tool just like a reloading manual. Just because there is load data on a specific round, doesn't mean it will be a good powder. I'm speaking generalities as I don't load 338 lapau. If you don't think you need it, great. I personally reduce maximum charge by 7-10% and work up. I consult reloading multiple manuals, powder manufacturers website, and lastly quickload. With the powder supply issues plus cost, its nice to hammer down a powder that will meet your needs. That just my opinion.

Out of curiousity, does the 338 lapau take magnum primers? If do, that could be a potential culprit as to why the chrono doesn't equal quicload results. Plus there can be up to a 10% difference from lot to lot, which is clearly indicated in the programs manual. Probably why I never get the same results from the reloading manual to my actual results.


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All weapons and their bores are different. You have tight bores and you have looser bores, so trying to get one weapon pegged to X, Y or Z manual is going to be hard. In addition, just because the cartridge is loaded to safe levels, doesn't mean that it's an accurate round through your weapon. The only way to know for sure, is to get out and load up a varying range of ammunition and go shoot that varying range of ammo over your chrono and get 'real world' experience and start creating your own database.

As to magnum primers being used in the 338LM...well, it's a magnum cartridge, so one should use magnum primers when reloading this cartridge, to aid in better ignition and more consistent SDs.

You can use standard primers and many have, but it's like the guy in a thread below, asking about RL-22 and the 338LM (mostly because that's what he can get) and wondering about starting loads.

We don't see a lot of data because it's not the right tool for the job. Sure, things might go bang and maybe that guy gets lucky and gets tight groups, but he's the exception, rather than the rule.

As to the part about 'making sure a powder meets your needs,' what does QL have over any other reloading manual, except that it's 'interactive?'

I'm not knocking QL. If you sent me a free copy, I'd fiddle with it, but it's probably just easier to read here, find a powder that works well for most of us in the real world and go from there.

I mean, lets face it, if we had enough time and enough weapons to blow up, we could get AA#2 (a fast pistol powder) to work in the 338LM, but why not just start out with the proper tool to begin with?

QL is another tool in the tool box, as you rightly state, but it's no substitute for getting out there and firing live rounds down range and developing your own empirical data.

Chris

 

[dabibbee]

Thanks for the comments Chris, as I agree with you on that Quickload is not a substitute for loading manuals. Over the years, I've collected quite a few. As Kirkd indicated it is a tool that I have found to be very close in muzzle velocity if all of the inputs are correct.

 

[RHunter]

The thing with reloading, and I am sure a lot of you will agree, is the published information is FILLED with errors. You can not find a burn rate chart that is the same as all the others unless it was copied from someone else, the reloading manuals are also filled with errors - not to mention so conservative due to our litigation-addicted society, (with exception to the odd hot load mistakes you find edition to edition) powder really does vary from lot to lot, and then add in a program that was written based on a lot of miss-information, and/or was based on powder burn rates that do not correlate with current production lots.

I personally feel load development is an art based on a lot of empirical observation over a lot of years of having successes and making mistakes, and even that knowledge gained from that experience needs to be tweaked lot to lot.

I remember the day when I would buy a couple pounds of powder at a time because when I ran out I could go to the local shop and get another pound. I remember the frustration of duplicating a load from the previously purchased powder and having my groups open up a half MOA or more... Now when I buy powder, if there are no quantity limits, I will buy 24-32 pounds at a time just so I have consistency round to round for a year or more.

Let me clarify this a little further for you. Quickload load NOT a substitute for a reloading manual. How I narrow powder down is buy ONLY looking at powder that I have load data from.

I agree with that 100%. One of the problems I have with Quickload is the learning curve it has, the other big problem I have is the accuracy of it's data. I have never gotten the same crono readings from a calculated load stated velocity.

There are so many variables in reloading that the only reliable source of information is that empirical knowledge you get over time, learning the shortcuts to finding that last safe node, and knowing exactly what to do when you get a new lot of powder. Quickload is something to use in the process of figuring all this stuff out but I think you get to a point where you grow out of it. It is something you need to grow into, and it is definitely something you grow out of as a reloader.

The thing that is most concerning to me about modern reloading is reloading is becoming a harder art to learn because of all the powder choices we have now. There was a time when your powder choices were as diverse as Norma's total product offering, now we get powders from every corner of the earth and there are at least 30 powders that can be used in 30-06 alone. When it gets this confusing you see a lot of knuckleheads make mistakes..

Here is a story:

I was at my gunsmiths and he showed me a bolt that came out of a 338 Lapua and the end of it was like a mushroom and there was a piece of brass welded to the end of it (It was a 338). He just got done fixing the rifle, new action, set the barrel back... and the owner showed up shortly after him showing me this to pick up the rifle and he had a live 338 round in his hands and chambered it in the shop... THANKFULLY, the bullet was set out so far he could not close the bolt. This guy had NO CLUE about seating depth, and blamed the previous action maker for the mushroomed bolt as if it was the actions fault that this round likely hit 85,000 PSI to do what it did (This was a McMillian action and you know how tough they are, we are talking SERIOUS pressure)...

When you see shit like that and that kind of stupidity, it scares the hell out of you. This is not someone I want to sit next to on the firing line and definitely not someone I want to see using quickload let alone opening the lid to a pound of powder.

The point I am trying to make is, there is no better experience than experience. Quickload has its merits but it is a bit of a crutch.

Here is what I did when I developed my 12 absolutely AWESOME loads for my 30-06... I put over 3000 rounds down the barrel to find the absolute best and I did exactly that. I sacrificed a barrel in the process and at some point here very soon I will be getting it rebarreled. (I have a matched pair of rifles so I am using these perfected loads in the twin).

What I gained from that experience is priceless. Out of the 25+ powders I tested I know the characteristics of all of them in this caliber. This education cost me about $3000 with the new barrel. But get me on the 1000 yard line and I will embarrass a 300 WM owner... You dont get that kind of experience out of quickload. Some shortcuts simply are not worth the education you sacrifice for the sake of "saving time".

Doing it the hard way has very distinct advantages.

 

[Dogtown]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting using QL as a standalone process for load development. That guy could have done the same thing with just the Lyman manual for that matter. If anything, it's a good example of learning how to reload with short action cartridges before jumping up to big magnums.

 

[CharlieNC]

Like any other tool, you need to put in your due-diligence before you turn it on and use it. Especially for software; garbage in = garbage out ; don't ignore "small" differences in brass water capacity and seating depth have major effect. Safely work up to new loads whether from a book or QL. Interestingly I have seen for the same bullet weight, QL has shown major pressure differences for the different manufacturers and designs; I bet most of us have looked in the books and simply substituted the results based on weight and not given it a second thought. Everything is not accounted for; as discussed primers are not a variable.

 

[timelinex]

So then what are you guys using as your weighting factor for 338lm and starting pressures

The reason I wanted to try QL again is to compare my current load to the theoretical OBT