I'm having a hard time finding varget to load my .308 and using 168gr.SMK's. I shot some loads using TAC this past weekend with good results. Any advantages of TAC over Varget or not. The only thing I have found out is TAC is a spherical powder and should measure better. Anything else I should consider????
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Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
IMR 4895 works well too. Throws consistently in my Redding. Not very temp sensitive in my loads (can see 40*+ changes from early morning to afternoon).
IMR 4895 works well too. Throws consistently in my Redding. Not very temp sensitive in my loads (can see 40*+ changes from early morning to afternoon).
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
I completed my first batch of reloads last weekend using TAC, 168g SMK's and Fiocchi once fired brass. Here's my newbie result at 100 yards with 42g of TAC:
Not bad for a first go. I've heard the exact opposite regarding temp sensitivity with TAC, that it's actually stable, so who knows
It seemed to shoot cleaner than the commercial ammo I've been shooting.
I completed my first batch of reloads last weekend using TAC, 168g SMK's and Fiocchi once fired brass. Here's my newbie result at 100 yards with 42g of TAC:
Not bad for a first go. I've heard the exact opposite regarding temp sensitivity with TAC, that it's actually stable, so who knows
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
I have read by a very well known gun writer that TAC is very clean and is very temperature resistant in his testing. Hans- nice shooting. If that group is repeatable, I think my load testing would be done.
I have read by a very well known gun writer that TAC is very clean and is very temperature resistant in his testing. Hans- nice shooting. If that group is repeatable, I think my load testing would be done.
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
Varget has a higher heat of explosion, but TAC is more dense, allowing more powder to fit in a similar volume. Without specific load development, I'd conclude it is very difficult to recommend one over the other. I had some strong personal beliefs about RS powders being cleaner burning and less temp sensitive, but experience suggested otherwise. I think the answers to these issues are to test the loads under different temperature conditions and to clean until the bore is actually clean, however much work that might require. Experience beats conjecture every time.
Greg
Varget has a higher heat of explosion, but TAC is more dense, allowing more powder to fit in a similar volume. Without specific load development, I'd conclude it is very difficult to recommend one over the other. I had some strong personal beliefs about RS powders being cleaner burning and less temp sensitive, but experience suggested otherwise. I think the answers to these issues are to test the loads under different temperature conditions and to clean until the bore is actually clean, however much work that might require. Experience beats conjecture every time.
Greg
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
I don't use Varget, but remember TAC can work well in 5.56 loads as well.
I don't use Varget, but remember TAC can work well in 5.56 loads as well.
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyreloader</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have read by a very well known gun writer that TAC is very clean and is very temperature resistant in his testing. Hans- nice shooting. If that group is repeatable, I think my load testing would be done. </div></div>
Thanks! That was at 42g of TAC which was my max load for initial workups. I'm probably going to load up some 30x42, 10x42.2 and 10x42.4 for my next outting to see what sort of legs it has and still shoot consistently. I'm not really expecting the group to shink too much more, but more velocity will probably be nice when I'm shooting out past 600 later this month.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyreloader</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have read by a very well known gun writer that TAC is very clean and is very temperature resistant in his testing. Hans- nice shooting. If that group is repeatable, I think my load testing would be done. </div></div>
Thanks! That was at 42g of TAC which was my max load for initial workups. I'm probably going to load up some 30x42, 10x42.2 and 10x42.4 for my next outting to see what sort of legs it has and still shoot consistently. I'm not really expecting the group to shink too much more, but more velocity will probably be nice when I'm shooting out past 600 later this month.
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rhys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I haven't found any noticable tem issues with TAC. Less than 1/10 mil diffence in come ups out to 600 between 30 degrees and 80 degrees. hasn't given me any pressure issues. </div></div>
I always have to chuckle a little when I hear you guys talk about 80* being 'high temps'.
Out here in AZ that is considered a mild day!
I've been experimenting with TAC for a while and my experience is that it gets a little squirrely above 95* [that's when we take our coats off here! HA!] and at 105*+ you had better have dropped it down a bit.
My Varget load doesn't have this problem.
I love the way TAC meters and is just as accurate as my Varg. load but I do have to consider the time of the year.
Looks like you have a good working load for your AO though.
FWIW
Wes in AZ...already been in the 90's here...."but it's a dry heat!"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rhys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I haven't found any noticable tem issues with TAC. Less than 1/10 mil diffence in come ups out to 600 between 30 degrees and 80 degrees. hasn't given me any pressure issues. </div></div>
I always have to chuckle a little when I hear you guys talk about 80* being 'high temps'.
Out here in AZ that is considered a mild day!
I've been experimenting with TAC for a while and my experience is that it gets a little squirrely above 95* [that's when we take our coats off here! HA!] and at 105*+ you had better have dropped it down a bit.
My Varget load doesn't have this problem.
I love the way TAC meters and is just as accurate as my Varg. load but I do have to consider the time of the year.
Looks like you have a good working load for your AO though.
FWIW
Wes in AZ...already been in the 90's here...."but it's a dry heat!"
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: was21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">at 105*+ you had better have dropped it down a bit.</div></div>
Bingo. But remember, it's not just ambient temperatures that matter. Having a round sit in the chamber (heating up) will do the exact same thing.
If ball powders offered great temp sensitivity, and meter as well as they do, you'd see a lot more folks using them.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: was21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">at 105*+ you had better have dropped it down a bit.</div></div>
Bingo. But remember, it's not just ambient temperatures that matter. Having a round sit in the chamber (heating up) will do the exact same thing.
If ball powders offered great temp sensitivity, and meter as well as they do, you'd see a lot more folks using them.
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
What makes "ball" powders more sensitive to temperature fluctuations than "extruded" powders?
I've got 16lbs of TAC here at the house, and have read virtually all good things about the powder in both 308 and 223...Have yet to fire off a round as I am working on my last bit of Varget.
What makes "ball" powders more sensitive to temperature fluctuations than "extruded" powders?
I've got 16lbs of TAC here at the house, and have read virtually all good things about the powder in both 308 and 223...Have yet to fire off a round as I am working on my last bit of Varget.
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What makes "ball" powders more sensitive to temperature fluctuations than "extruded" powders?</div></div>
There are plenty of stick powders which are temperature sensitive. I'm making some generalizations because <span style="font-weight: bold">there are exceptions</span>:
I think some of the issue is with the composition. Single base powders are made from nitro-cellulose, while double base powders
also contain nitroglycerin.
Ball powders are <span style="font-weight: bold">(usually)</span> double base.
Extruded powders are single base and some are double base.
Some of the temp sensitivity may also be that some folks use hotter primers with ball powders. The switch in primers may also influence the the burn rate ... making folks think the sensitivity/pressure issues are powder related when it could be a combination of problems.
I'm sure some really smart folks, there are plenty on this board, who can elaborate a bit more.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What makes "ball" powders more sensitive to temperature fluctuations than "extruded" powders?</div></div>
There are plenty of stick powders which are temperature sensitive. I'm making some generalizations because <span style="font-weight: bold">there are exceptions</span>:
I think some of the issue is with the composition. Single base powders are made from nitro-cellulose, while double base powders
also contain nitroglycerin.
Ball powders are <span style="font-weight: bold">(usually)</span> double base.
Extruded powders are single base and some are double base.
Some of the temp sensitivity may also be that some folks use hotter primers with ball powders. The switch in primers may also influence the the burn rate ... making folks think the sensitivity/pressure issues are powder related when it could be a combination of problems.
I'm sure some really smart folks, there are plenty on this board, who can elaborate a bit more.
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
Good thread. I moved from UT where temps during the year could range from single digits to above 100 degrees.
Now, in Minnesota, I'm not as concerned about temps above 100 degrees. I'll be working up a .223 and .308 load in the near future, for 55, 62, 77 & 80 gr .223 and 175gr .308 loads. At least my projectiles are simple in .308.
Good thread. I moved from UT where temps during the year could range from single digits to above 100 degrees.
Now, in Minnesota, I'm not as concerned about temps above 100 degrees. I'll be working up a .223 and .308 load in the near future, for 55, 62, 77 & 80 gr .223 and 175gr .308 loads. At least my projectiles are simple in .308.
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adventurer_96</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good thread. I moved from UT where temps during the year could range from single digits to above 100 degrees.
Now, in Minnesota, I'm not as concerned about temps above 100 degrees. I'll be working up a .223 and .308 load in the near future, for 55, 62, 77 & 80 gr .223 and 175gr .308 loads. At least my projectiles are simple in .308. </div></div>
Yesterday, it went from 32.7 about a half-hour before sunrise to 69 in about five hours. It hasn't been warm yet!
AT least we usually cool off to 70 or lower overnight during the 100+F months. A lot nicer than the LV valley where I grew up.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adventurer_96</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good thread. I moved from UT where temps during the year could range from single digits to above 100 degrees.
Now, in Minnesota, I'm not as concerned about temps above 100 degrees. I'll be working up a .223 and .308 load in the near future, for 55, 62, 77 & 80 gr .223 and 175gr .308 loads. At least my projectiles are simple in .308. </div></div>
Yesterday, it went from 32.7 about a half-hour before sunrise to 69 in about five hours. It hasn't been warm yet!
AT least we usually cool off to 70 or lower overnight during the 100+F months. A lot nicer than the LV valley where I grew up.
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: robertdr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is anyone using TAC for their M1A reloads?
Thanks
Robert </div></div>
Robert, I've found that using 150 gr Hornady FMJ and 43.8gr of TAC I get pretty good results out to 200, just shooting it through a semi auto. I'm using those CCI military primers.
HTH
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: robertdr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is anyone using TAC for their M1A reloads?
Thanks
Robert </div></div>
Robert, I've found that using 150 gr Hornady FMJ and 43.8gr of TAC I get pretty good results out to 200, just shooting it through a semi auto. I'm using those CCI military primers.
HTH
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
My experience with slamfires is nil. I've never had one.
I believe that's because of the way I handle my firearm. Military firearms are designed to be fed from the magazine, and not use hand chambered individual rounds.
Hand chambering single round over an empty magazine and allowing the bolt to slam home is a recipe for a slamfire.
That's because the design velocity the bolt reaches when stripping a round from the mag and chambering it is a lot slower than what is encountered with hand chambering. The friction generated by the stripping/feeding process slows the bolt down to the point where the floating firing pin normally lacks the momentum necessary to ignite the primer.
I have used CCI #34's for M1A's and M1's and found that they tend to impose something of an accuracy penalty; why, God only knows, I don't. I have discontinued making special allowances for handloading ammo to defeat the possibility of slamfires, and resort, instead, to handling the firearm with respect for the slamfire potential. It exists, I'm sure, but I also beleve it can be avoided with proper handling procedures.
I did a lot of development with Ramshot TAC, Big Game, Hunter, and Magnum powders. I liked them, but ultimately discontinued their usage because they were not readily available locally. Maybe I'm being irrational about this, but if it's not on the shelf, I am reluctant to place an order. Moreover, what's available under normal circumstances is completely adequate for my needs.
I found that for heavy-for-chambering bullets and marginally overbore applications, Big Game was a better propellent for .223 and Hunter for .260. I found them to be somewhat less temperature sensitive than the average, but I also use Hodgdon Extreme powders where practical. I find that temperature sensitivity becomes more critical when operating at around max charges, and since my own loading philosophy favors more sedate loads, it's not one of my key issues.
Greg
My experience with slamfires is nil. I've never had one.
I believe that's because of the way I handle my firearm. Military firearms are designed to be fed from the magazine, and not use hand chambered individual rounds.
Hand chambering single round over an empty magazine and allowing the bolt to slam home is a recipe for a slamfire.
That's because the design velocity the bolt reaches when stripping a round from the mag and chambering it is a lot slower than what is encountered with hand chambering. The friction generated by the stripping/feeding process slows the bolt down to the point where the floating firing pin normally lacks the momentum necessary to ignite the primer.
I have used CCI #34's for M1A's and M1's and found that they tend to impose something of an accuracy penalty; why, God only knows, I don't. I have discontinued making special allowances for handloading ammo to defeat the possibility of slamfires, and resort, instead, to handling the firearm with respect for the slamfire potential. It exists, I'm sure, but I also beleve it can be avoided with proper handling procedures.
I did a lot of development with Ramshot TAC, Big Game, Hunter, and Magnum powders. I liked them, but ultimately discontinued their usage because they were not readily available locally. Maybe I'm being irrational about this, but if it's not on the shelf, I am reluctant to place an order. Moreover, what's available under normal circumstances is completely adequate for my needs.
I found that for heavy-for-chambering bullets and marginally overbore applications, Big Game was a better propellent for .223 and Hunter for .260. I found them to be somewhat less temperature sensitive than the average, but I also use Hodgdon Extreme powders where practical. I find that temperature sensitivity becomes more critical when operating at around max charges, and since my own loading philosophy favors more sedate loads, it's not one of my key issues.
Greg
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
Greg, I'm like you - I prefer to find powders locally as I would rather have 1 lbs bottles than a large 8 lbs jug. However, TAC isn't available locally at all, and unless I find an alternate powder that will provide accurate .223 and .308 loads that meters easily and is at least as temperature stable (if not superior) then I'm going to have to knuckle down and buy a jug from Midway or another distributor.
Greg, I'm like you - I prefer to find powders locally as I would rather have 1 lbs bottles than a large 8 lbs jug. However, TAC isn't available locally at all, and unless I find an alternate powder that will provide accurate .223 and .308 loads that meters easily and is at least as temperature stable (if not superior) then I'm going to have to knuckle down and buy a jug from Midway or another distributor.
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
Ball powders like W748 and BL C-2 are longtime favorite ball powders. They are not immune to temp sensitivity and tend to burn somehat dirty unless you're running near max. W748 is my standard powder for .223 with 50-55gr bullets.
Ball powders like W748 and BL C-2 are longtime favorite ball powders. They are not immune to temp sensitivity and tend to burn somehat dirty unless you're running near max. W748 is my standard powder for .223 with 50-55gr bullets.
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
Well, I hate to resurrect an old thread but it looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet (no pun intended) and order an 8# jug of TAC online. NOBODY up here has anything, and unless I happen to find some at the upcoming fun show I'll be out of luck. At a recent show, a vendor had the full line of Ramshot powders - except True Blue and TAC, which are the only two I need. Go figure........
More to follow.
Well, I hate to resurrect an old thread but it looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet (no pun intended) and order an 8# jug of TAC online. NOBODY up here has anything, and unless I happen to find some at the upcoming fun show I'll be out of luck. At a recent show, a vendor had the full line of Ramshot powders - except True Blue and TAC, which are the only two I need. Go figure........
More to follow.
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
Midsouth has RAMSHOT TAC for $135.68 for 8 lb + the hazmat... They have CCI BR primers at $39.47 and Federal 210M in stock at $30.44
I look at tac as Win 748 "improved" For the Dillon and bulk produced ammo the ball powder I feel is the way to go.
When my 748 is gone TAC will replace it.
I have to admit IMR 4064 has been doing some very good things for me in both my 308 and 260 and actually is surprising me with less pressure signs than my H4350 in the 260 Rem with 123 gr Laupa bullets .. I do want to compare some Varget loads at some point.
I just don't get it. 39 gr of IMR 4064 gives me 2890 FPS NO pressure signs at all. 43 gr H4350 at 2900 is cratering primers 10 fps different and MUCH less pressure it makes no sense at all. You would think the opposite would be happening. For a powder that is supposed to be a lot slower and give higher vel is feels like I got a bad batch of powder
I am hand weighing each load for my 260 and 308.
Midsouth has RAMSHOT TAC for $135.68 for 8 lb + the hazmat... They have CCI BR primers at $39.47 and Federal 210M in stock at $30.44
I look at tac as Win 748 "improved" For the Dillon and bulk produced ammo the ball powder I feel is the way to go.
When my 748 is gone TAC will replace it.
I have to admit IMR 4064 has been doing some very good things for me in both my 308 and 260 and actually is surprising me with less pressure signs than my H4350 in the 260 Rem with 123 gr Laupa bullets .. I do want to compare some Varget loads at some point.
I just don't get it. 39 gr of IMR 4064 gives me 2890 FPS NO pressure signs at all. 43 gr H4350 at 2900 is cratering primers 10 fps different and MUCH less pressure it makes no sense at all. You would think the opposite would be happening. For a powder that is supposed to be a lot slower and give higher vel is feels like I got a bad batch of powder
I am hand weighing each load for my 260 and 308.
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
Well, a funny thing happened to me over the last few weeks. I hesitated to get an 8lbs jug of TAC because I was busy with work (imagine that) during the week. But, there was a local funshow on Sunday, and I walked out with 9lbs of powder.
I got a one pound bottle of 748 to experiment with, and an 8lbs jug of Varget. I was amazed to see it on his table on a Sunday. I ended up paying $20/lbs on average for the powder - not bad, especially considering the ability to have it in hand.
So, in the end, it appears I'm going to have to do some research and start using Varget.
Here's what I'm going to use:
175gr Sierra
Fed 210M
LC match brass
Suggestions?
Well, a funny thing happened to me over the last few weeks. I hesitated to get an 8lbs jug of TAC because I was busy with work (imagine that) during the week. But, there was a local funshow on Sunday, and I walked out with 9lbs of powder.
I got a one pound bottle of 748 to experiment with, and an 8lbs jug of Varget. I was amazed to see it on his table on a Sunday. I ended up paying $20/lbs on average for the powder - not bad, especially considering the ability to have it in hand.
So, in the end, it appears I'm going to have to do some research and start using Varget.
Here's what I'm going to use:
175gr Sierra
Fed 210M
LC match brass
Suggestions?
Re: Ramshot TAC vs Varget for .308
I still don't get it. Why is the H4350 giving me such high pressure signs at low vel? I posted this with pics a long time ago here.
I even called Hodgdon. They said they had no calls about "fast" H4350. Which I know is BS because Mike from here called and so did I back in 2004 So obviously they are NOT keeping records of phone calls even thought they say they are. I hate it when they lie.
Greg may remember from back in 2004 when a few of us were working up loads for our 260's Yo had good results with the 123's and Mike and others were using 139's at 1K But more than one person had premature pressure with H4350 and even sent ammo in. IIRC.
If 4064 was a little faster I would understand but 4064 is a lot faster then H4350. (relatively speaking)
Light bullet slow powder .. Some people load more 4350 under 139's than I did with my 123's If it was my gun you would expect 4064 to show pressure early on too but it is not, it is doing just the opposite it is showing a tolerance for that bullet and gives low pressures. I have yet to go to the published MAX but I am only under by .5 gr and suspect the .5 gr will not blow primers like the H4350 was at UNDER max!
Maybe IMR4350 is the thing to try? Or I will continue to work up the 4064 and see if I can get my 2950 FPS, my target FPS.
I get pressure signs at that vel with h4350.
I am afraid If I load and get what I want with IMR4064 a hot day will cause problems. My "safe" load becoming problems quickly.
The guy at Hodgdon was useless. IMHO.
I still don't get it. Why is the H4350 giving me such high pressure signs at low vel? I posted this with pics a long time ago here.
I even called Hodgdon. They said they had no calls about "fast" H4350. Which I know is BS because Mike from here called and so did I back in 2004 So obviously they are NOT keeping records of phone calls even thought they say they are. I hate it when they lie.
Greg may remember from back in 2004 when a few of us were working up loads for our 260's Yo had good results with the 123's and Mike and others were using 139's at 1K But more than one person had premature pressure with H4350 and even sent ammo in. IIRC.
If 4064 was a little faster I would understand but 4064 is a lot faster then H4350. (relatively speaking)
Light bullet slow powder .. Some people load more 4350 under 139's than I did with my 123's If it was my gun you would expect 4064 to show pressure early on too but it is not, it is doing just the opposite it is showing a tolerance for that bullet and gives low pressures. I have yet to go to the published MAX but I am only under by .5 gr and suspect the .5 gr will not blow primers like the H4350 was at UNDER max!
Maybe IMR4350 is the thing to try? Or I will continue to work up the 4064 and see if I can get my 2950 FPS, my target FPS.
I get pressure signs at that vel with h4350.
I am afraid If I load and get what I want with IMR4064 a hot day will cause problems. My "safe" load becoming problems quickly.
The guy at Hodgdon was useless. IMHO.
