Rifle Scopes Ran out of adjustment

[KeeblerArmy]

I brought this up in the shout box last night and got some ideas from people, and I'm planning on calling the scope company as well. Maybe if I throw this out to the group at large someone else will have an idea.

Here's what I've got going on. Remington 700 with a 20 MOA badger rail, SWFA rings and a SWFA SS 3-9x scope. When trying to zero it, I ran out of elevation bringing it down. The scope bottomed out and the bullet was still hitting exactly a mil high.

If nothing else, I could geta 10 or 15 MOA rail and that should fix the issue. However when asking about rails in the shout box and describing the situation, people were saying I should not be having this problem to begin with.

Possible causes/solutions already suggested are:

-Something up with the scope. Planning on calling SWFA to see what they have to say about it. What could be wrong with a scope to cause this? Another problem I might be facing is that I did not buy it directly from the company. I dunno if they will be willing to work with me on this. Which sucks because so far I am loving the scope and I really hope it is not a lemon

- Try heavier bullets. I was shooting 150gr (.308). Even if using 168 or 170's fixes the problem, I don't find that an acceptable work around. It does not sound right that I should be that restricted on ammo choices.

- Bed the rail. I don't understand how that would solve the problem that I'm having and am open to enlightenment.

SWFA sells the badger 20moa rail/ring combo as a suggested mounting kit for their scope. One can only assume that this should be workable combination.

Can anyone else think of what could be causing this problem?

Thanks

 

[jasonk]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KeeblerArmy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Can anyone else think of what could be causing this problem?

</div></div>

What are the details about the rifle it's mounted on?

 

[Spuhr]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

Trying to explain what I said another time.

The actions outside dimensions are virtually handmade, and those surfaces are not correct.
After the machining have the action been polished and battered by a human by hand and that have made the surfaces where the rail is attached to the action very uneven and also in other angels than designed.

So when you attach a machined correct rail on the top of that, the front part of the action is maybe tilting 10 moa forward and teh rear part 10 moa rearwards.
You install your rail and tightning it, as the action is the most stable thing, the rail will bend.

On your bent rail you install a scope, and don't understand why you don't hit anything......


Apart from this, its likely that the rifle itself not is very well made, the barrel is maybe pointing upwards due to the face of the action not is tru with the action.

Håkan

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

It's a Remington 700 VSS in .308. Everything is factory on it. Left handed action. Does that give you what you are looking for?

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spuhr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trying to explain what I said another time.

The actions outside dimensions are virtually handmade, and those surfaces are not correct.
After the machining have the action been polished and battered by a human by hand and that have made the surfaces where the rail is attached to the action very uneven and also in other angels than designed.

So when you attach a machined correct rail on the top of that, the front part of the action is maybe tilting 10 moa forward and teh rear part 10 moa rearwards.
You install your rail and tightning it, as the action is the most stable thing, the rail will bend.

On your bent rail you install a scope, and don't understand why you don't hit anything......


Apart from this, its likely that the rifle itself not is very well made, the barrel is maybe pointing upwards due to the face of the action not is tru with the action.

Håkan

</div></div>

Sphur, thanks for taking another stab at this. What you are saying makes more sense now. Two things I still don't get though:

- Perhaps it is just my ignorance but I would expect the imperfections you describe not to have such a drastic effect on the the system as a whole. 10 MOA is a lot for what to me seems like would be microscopic imperfections. But maybe I'm totally off about that.

- You suggested using the epoxy bedding as the solution to this and I read up on the procedure. My understanding from what you said and what I have read is that the the epoxy fills in the gaps and creates a more even surface and reduces the stress/bending you described above correct? My other hang up is I don't understand how that will correct several MOA worth of adjustment.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I appreciate the response and again, I'm ignorant on the subject. Reading your explanation my brain says "THAT much of a shift in zero? Really??"

 

[jasonk]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spuhr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Apart from this, its likely that the rifle itself not is very well made, the barrel is maybe pointing upwards due to the face of the action not is true with the action.

</div></div>

My bet is on the barrel alignment.

Have any other 700's around that you could move the whole setup to for an experiment?

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spuhr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Apart from this, its likely that the rifle itself not is very well made, the barrel is maybe pointing upwards due to the face of the action not is tru with the action.

Håkan

</div></div>

Entirely possible. I may have a trip to a gunsmith in my future just to check the rifle out.

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

My bet is on the barrel alignment.

Have any other 700's around that you could move the whole setup to for an experiment?</div></div>

Negative

 

[macgulley]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

Ran across this quote in another thread. May explain what's happening:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hfeo,

Mine works out to a full 20 mils W&E. That's 72". Added a 20 moa base and I have around 56 moa up, and 16 down.

Bob </div></div>

20MOA minus 16MOA = pretty close to 1 mil. You may not be able to zero at 100 with a 20MOA base.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1411208&page=2

 

[banshee sws]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

hate to hear of your trouble -

and you are right , you should not be having it , with the setup you describe

if you bought the scope used, there is a good chance that it had been used , sighted in previously etc., which equates to some amount of internal adjustment being left on the scope when you got it

so i would suggest mechanically centering the optic, ( which is going all the way down or up doesn't matter , then count clicks in the opposite direction till the turret max's out again, then apply half that counted click value back on to the elevation if that is what you counted ) then repeat for the windage.

so if you counted 200 clicks from up-max/physical stop to bottom-max/physical stop then put 100 clicks on the turret,


this should place the erector mechanically centered -

now mount the optic , bore sight the rifle, fire your sighter shots,

see if that helps

another scenario is you could run a 200 yard zero, in place of a 100yd zero

also, ensure that the turret locking mech. is secure (allen screws or whatever is built in the scope to keep the turret from slipping when you add/remove adjustments)

keep us posted i am curious to see what the remedy ends up being

george

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hate to hear of your trouble -

and you are right , you should not be having it , with the setup you describe

if you bought the scope used, there is a good chance that it had been used , sighted in previously etc., which equates to some amount of internal adjustment being left on the scope when you got it

so i would suggest mechanically centering the optic, ( which is going all the way down or up doesn't matter , then count clicks in the opposite direction till the turret max's out again, then apply half that counted click value back on to the elevation if that is what you counted ) then repeat for the windage.

so if you counted 200 clicks from up-max/physical stop to bottom-max/physical stop then put 100 clicks on the turret,


this should place the erector mechanically centered -

now mount the optic , bore sight the rifle, fire your sighter shots,

see if that helps

another scenario is you could run a 200 yard zero, in place of a 100yd zero

also, ensure that the turret locking mech. is secure (allen screws or whatever is built in the scope to keep the turret from slipping when you add/remove adjustments)

keep us posted i am curious to see what the remedy ends up being

george</div></div>

Thanks for the idea, that is a simple one I can try and see if it changes anything.

 

[banshee sws]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

there is an outside chance , that it won't zero at 100 due to the 20moa rail; which is an easy fix, as you said get a 15 moa rail

 

[macgulley]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

I forgot to mention in my post that it refers to the model scope you have.
If there is only 72 minutes of adjustment and if it's divided equally between up and down (some scopes are not equally divided) you will probably not be able to zero for 100 yards with a 20MOA base. You would likely be 4MOA high which is pretty close to 1 mil.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

still seems weird that no one has that issue as well that i can recall. badger is pretty good stuff, but try swapping the rings front to back, just to see if thats any help.

we counted his travel last night too. he has 22 mils elevation and 18 mils windage in that scope. worst case, you can cut or buy shims and raise the front and save yourself the cost of a new base. good scissors and a pop can will do that.

but, lets make sure its not something else.

 

[Dantrom]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

I have a Remington 700 with Seekins 20moa base and rings and SWFA 10x HD and have it zeroed at 100 with no problems. Hopefully you can get this problem fixed without having to send anything away for exchange.
But personally I am questioning the scope and not your setup. Hopefully when you get it figured out you will like your SWFA as much as I like mine. I have considered selling mine to help fund a nightforce several times and just can't seem to part with it. Seems to have a special place in my heart.

 

[macgulley]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dantrom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a Remington 700 with Seekins 20moa base and rings and SWFA 10x HD and have it zeroed at 100 with no problems. Hopefully you can get this problem fixed without having to send anything away for exchange.
But personally I am questioning the scope and not your setup. Hopefully when you get it figured out you will like your SWFA as much as I like mine. I have considered selling mine to help fund a nightforce several times and just can't seem to part with it. Seems to have a special place in my heart. </div></div>

I believe your 10x has 100+ moa of elevation. The variable has considerably less.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

If it's hitting a Mil high, aim a Mil lower.

This happens, but it's an inconvenience, and not a tragedy. Improvise, adapt, overcome.

Greg

 

[Kells81]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

This sounds like a good time to work on your rifle.

Bed the base If done properly it will help considerably with the problem.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

Like Greg said, aim a mil lower at 100 yards. If this is a hunting gun then you'll still be in the kill area at 100, if it's a competition gun then really how often will you be shooting at 100? Most consider that rock tossing distance, especially since you are visiting a mostly long range shooting forum. Since the scope does have mil dots it would be easy to just use the first dot up for your 100 zero.

But buying another mount is the other option if you don't feel comfortable with the holdover for close range shooting. The pop can shim under the front of the mount would also prob cure your problem. If others are using this same setup and they don't have problems then it's possible there is something else going on.

I ran into a weird problem one time on a gun that had tall rings and at a close distance actually had to raise elevation in the scope to get it to come down for a 200 yard setting then all worked well after that. Haven't figured out the mechanics of it but the rings were really tall on a friends gun and we tried cranking elevation in and it kept coming down till we finally got his 200 zero. Then all his come ups worked.

But what do I know, I shoot a short stick.....

Good Luck

Topstrap

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

Bulk reply:

banshee: Agreed, going to a different rail was my plan until learning that there is a larger problem with the system as a whole. I at least want to know what it is.

macgulley: Like axeman said (thanks again for chiming up on this issue because I still haven't recounted

) the scope has 22mils elevation, which works out to a little over 75 MOA total. Whatever that tells us. I wish I remember how much travel I had left in my leupold to see if that seemed high too. The thing is, this is supposed to be a working combo so it shouldn't matter.

axeman: I saw the ring idea in another thread and can give that a shot. If it came down to shimming it, I would probably just get a 15moa rail

dantrom: Even though I had to hold low after I got as close to zero as I could, I was LOVING the scope.

Greg: That's what I did for the day, but no way that is going to be a permanent fix for me.

poke: good idea about order of operations for the screws. There is a discussion above about bedding the base, how does that fix several MOA worth of problems?

topstrap: I'm going with there is something else going on.


Are there any easy measurements I can take to determine where the problem might be? I have some micrometers, a ruler/tape measure and some levels at my disposal. Like, could I level the stock out, then put a level on the action and the end of the barrel and would that tell me if I've got a slight incline to the barrel or somewhere?

This afternoon I'm going to pull the rail off. I found instructions from badger and there is a short screw that I might have put in the wrong place. It is supposed to closer to the shooter and I might have put it on the barrel end, which could potentially cause this problem.

It sounds like they want you to slime it with loctite which basically sounds like the bedding procedure that the other two guys were talking about. I'm a little worried about doing that at this point though in case I have to take it off again

Thanks again guys, hopefully we'll figure this out.

 

[banshee sws]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

there is a procedure for measuring your action , along with the base to determine how much moa cant really have

it's fairly detailed and layed out entirely in a book called

hard target interdiction .50 caliber sniper rifle course

by dean michaelis

$50ish on ebay, midwayusa etc.,

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

Ok, I remounted the rail using badgers instructions. Didn't really notice any big changes there.

Here is what my windage settings is at the time of zero. I did crank the windage in a couple of revolutions but that did not buy me any more vertical travel so I think we can rule windage out.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: macgulley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ran across this quote in another thread. May explain what's happening:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hfeo,

Mine works out to a full 20 mils W&E. That's 72". Added a 20 moa base and I have around 56 moa up, and 16 down.

Bob </div></div>

20MOA minus 16MOA = pretty close to 1 mil. You may not be able to zero at 100 with a 20MOA base.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1411208&page=2 </div></div>

I wrote the original quote and your explanation is wrong on multiple levels. I had no problem getting a 100 yds zero.

First, my SS 3-9x42 had a full 20 MILS of adjustment or 72" for the mil challanged: that's 36" up and 36" down. Adding a 20 MOA base left me around 56" up and 16" down. You don't get to subtract another 20 MOA from the 16 MOA left.

As to the OP problem, I don't have a clue, but let's not further confuse the issue.

Bob

 

[macgulley]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: macgulley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ran across this quote in another thread. May explain what's happening:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hfeo,

Mine works out to a full 20 mils W&E. That's 72". Added a 20 moa base and I have around 56 moa up, and 16 down.

Bob </div></div>

20MOA minus 16MOA = pretty close to 1 mil. You may not be able to zero at 100 with a 20MOA base.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1411208&page=2 </div></div>

I wrote the original quote and your explanation is wrong on multiple levels. I had no problem getting a 100 yds zero.

First, my SS 3-9x42 had a full 20 MILS of adjustment or 72" for the mil challanged: that's 36" up and 36" down. Adding a 20 MOA base left me around 56" up and 16" down. You don't get to subtract another 20 MOA from the 16 MOA left.

As to the OP problem, I don't have a clue, but let's not further confuse the issue.

Bob </div></div>

Yeah, sorry about that. My brain wasn't firing on all cylinders.

 

[banshee sws]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

hey sir

you should be able to do the procedure i told you (minus the shooting part) from your house;

mechanically zero the optics elevation and windage; bore sight the rifle on an object in your yard (mailbox, bush, street light, ) some object approximately 50 yds away or even 100yds away

this should give you an idea if the rifle/optic is going to zero at 100 (it may take another 1-2 mils up or down to get it zeroed point of aim/point of impact shooting live rounds



let us know

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hey sir

you should be able to do the procedure i told you (minus the shooting part) from your house;

mechanically zero the optics elevation and windage; bore sight the rifle on an object in your yard (mailbox, bush, street light, ) some object approximately 50 yds away or even 100yds away

this should give you an idea if the rifle/optic is going to zero at 100 (it may take another 1-2 mils up or down to get it zeroed point of aim/point of impact shooting live rounds

let us know</div></div>

I returned the scope to mechanical zero, (which oddly enough, I ended up in almost the exact same place with the windage adjustment).

I'll have to use google earth or something to find a target ~100 yards away. My house is situated in a crappy place for getting line of sight to anything. During lunch I was home yesterday looking out of all of my windows trying to find a suitable target for just that. I will give that a shot and get back to you

PS This time I counted 233 clicks so ~23 mils on both windage and elevation. I dunno what I screwed up last time we counted it.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

Just got off the phone with SWFA, they told me just to get a lower rail. So I guess that's what I'll have to do.

Hopefully my rifle isn't totally jacked...

Anyone interested in a 20MOA badger rail?

 

[SWFA]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

Send your rings and base to my attention and we'll take a look at both on one of our 700's.

or

We can exchange your 20 moa Badger to a 0 moa Badger and your rings for Badger Steel rings for a total of $99. including S&H.

I'd really like to see you with steel rings on your Badger.

http://swfa.com/Badger-Ordnance-Maximized-Scope-1-Piece-Rail-P5485.aspx
$149.95

http://swfa.com/Badger-Ordnance-Max-50-Scope-30mm-Rings-P218.aspx
$172.95

If you accept this deal, print a copy of this and include it with your trade.

SWFA, Inc.
Att. Chris
420 Century Way, #100
Red Oak, Texas 75154

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

Wow. SWFA customer service rocks.

Could someone please check my math/logic here?

I counted 23 mils and change windage and elevation, so lets round that down to 22.

22 mils * 3.6 = 79.2" total adjustment, centered that is 39.6" up and down. Since we are talking 100yards, inches and MOA are interchangeable.

When I zeroed the scope on my rifle, I needed exactly one mil or 3.6" more. So, we say 39.6" - 20" from the rail left me with 19.6". I bottomed the scope out and still needed a mil so IN THEORY, to zero the scope, I'll need to some down 23.2" (19.6+3.6).

Going to the flat rail. Assuming I need to some down 23.2" again from the centered 39.6", I should end up with 16.4" down and 62.8" left for vertical travel.

Does that math look right? And that should leave plenty of adjustment for 1000 yards on a .308 right?

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

Can we also deduce from that that there is a ~20MOA cant to the rifle's barrel??

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

OR....

I think I subtracted that 20moa twice. With a flat rail, the adjustment should only be 3.2" down. Turning my numbers into 42.8 up and 36.4 down.

If that was the case, wouldn't I want a 10 MOA rail to reach out to 1k yards?

 

[jrob300]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

Have you tried mounting your rail to your action with ONLY the front screw? Does the rear of the base move away from the action? Mounted with only rear screw? Does the front of the base move away.

What Spuhr was trying to say to you was, Remington actions are often not true on the outside. On a 6.5" rail, .010" = 5 moa. It's possible your action is out that much or more. Solution? If the base moves up when you tighten the rear screw, bed it in that configuration. It will take some of the cant out and eliminate stress on the rail or action.

John

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

Took the rifle into a gun smith, he said the receiver is off a couple thousands of an inch, but not enough to worry about.

So, mystery still unsolved. I took SWFA up on their offer for the upgrade with the 0 MOA rail and rings. Hopefully I'll still have enough vertical travel with the flat rail. Will see what happens.

Unfortunately the badger stuff is on back order so it's going to be awhile before I get my rig up and running again

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Ran out of adjustment

Follow up: The badger rings and rail came back in stock faster than expected. I mounted the scope and it wasn't quite level so I used Lowlight's feeler gauge trick and that straightened it out.

So now thanks again to SWFA, the set up is a 0MOA Badger rail and Badger rings. I was finally able to take it to the range this weekend and get it zeroed.

It took very little adjustment to get everything dialed in. After zeroing with the same 150gr Federal American Eagle ammo, I have 13 Mils of vertical travel left in the scope.

From the charts I've looked at, I think 13 mils should be enough adjustment for what I hope to do with this gun. In some cases I might have to hold high a bit but that's ok since that will be the exception rather than the rule.