Sidearms & Scatterguns Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

[HPLLC]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General


1. Extractor would NOT snap over a round chambered from other than the magazine.
<span style="font-weight: bold">It was never designed to do this. The extractor is designed to function in conjunction with the magazine.</span>


Oh, the extractor also did not have the current state of the art beveling on the bottom faces, either.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Less than ideal geometry is a flaw IMO as Kimber does MIM the part as far as I know, and that means they can get whatever design geometry they want. </span>



3. The slide stop has no "slope" or detent/"dimple" to keep it from automatically engaging in the middle of a string *if a Shok-Buff is installed*.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Don't install one. The 4" pistol has less travel and so taking 1/8" away is more critical than with a 5" pistol. The gun will be less reliable with a shok buff. </span>


5. The mag release was not dimensioned properly and would drag on the magazine, for NO drop-free, if pressed in fully.

<span style="font-weight: bold">That's not typical and is a defect. </span>

 

[Grump]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

Update:

Took two sessions but I got the mag release working under ALL conditions.

Shok-Buff out eliminated the already-reduced random lockback.

The re-worked extractor needed the addition of a very small bevel on the extended ejector to eliminate the occasional intheface ejection. It started with 1-2 per 8-round mag, went down to about 1 per three-four mags, and now hasn't happened for more than 100 rounds.

Carter: This one was an $1,100 piece, thus the title of the rant being "not-cheap" rather than "high-end". Since almost everything I ever do takes at least twice as long as the professionals do, I still consider "high-end" to usually be synonymous with "over-priced", but I also freely recognize that *I* am NOT always the market that purveyor XYZ is selling to. Free country and all that.

Griffin: Yes, the mag catch/release is obviously a MIM part. The ease of spec-ing the dimensions AND QC of gaging the finished product makes that especially disappointing for the price point.

Same for the extractor, which is less-obviously MIM. Makes the "retro" 1920s-vintage design AND the shortness in the "nose" more of a let-down.

Whoever posted it wayback: The Tac Pro II comes with gen-you-ine steele mainspring housing. Both that and the frontstrap are rather nicely checkered.

The extended ambi safety just might be perfect for us. My son's hands are supposed to be small but *are* larger than mine. We both could stand a short trigger on it, but that's for later.

In the meantime, the rear sight needs to go about .05 or so to the right, and I haven't looked at the set screw with enough magnification to tell whether it's a microscopic torx head. None of my metric or SAE allen wrenches really fit the mag catch retainer screw, so I don't trust the one in the rear sight, which looks to be the same size.

Except for taking more slide speed than I like to snap over (most desirable for one of the malfunction drills commonly taught), the thing is as we like it, and functions 100% with our normal loads. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this, but the drawings I see show the front end of the extractor going into a hole in the slide with plenty of room for it to flex back that far and snap over. It's not to be loaded that way every magazine for sure, and that historically has some risk of breakage under extended use, but I value that function like I value the "emergency brake" on any car.

The goofy small-cone SWCs make by whoever run only about 98%, but at least now will go the rest of the way into battery with a very gentle nudge to the back of the slide.

Another 100 flawless rounds and I'll consider it okay for carry now.

Less coin than a Wilson, probably the same amount of tuning as I would expect from a cheap 1911, but a lot more user features and a great set of night sights.

Bottom line for me: worth it mainly because of the features. If I couldn't tweak these problems myself but had to either send it back or hire a gunsmith, it would probably not be worth the price.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

A 1911 that costs $600 should not be expected to run well out of the box. It is not a plastic gun. It does not represent value. As has been said about Kimber above... they are not the greatest. The best "value" out there is probably Baer or Dan Wesson... and for a no frills model, expect to pay between $1,500 and $2,000. They will likely be accurate and run.

If you have high expectations for a $600 gun, that is great, just don't buy a 1911. You will be disappointed every single time.</div></div>

Buy an STI Spartan. I suspect you'll eat your words and be pleasantly surprised.

I've never seen a Baer that would feed from the slide stop being pushed down, even with ball ammo and heavy springs. Fred Kart also insists that Baer can't fit a barrel. If that's what you want to pay two grand for, be my guest.

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Except for taking more slide speed than I like to snap over (most desirable for one of the malfunction drills commonly taught), the thing is as we like it, and functions 100% with our normal loads. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this</div></div>

JMB would disagree. You're expecting it to do something it wasn't designed to do. I suspect you could crack walnuts with the slide, but that's not what it was designed to do.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never seen a Baer that would feed from the slide stop being pushed down, even with ball ammo and heavy springs.</div></div>

I run 16 lb springs and don't recall ever slingshoting mine; no issues. But I don't use ball, just SWC.

Over 30 years I've seen lots of IPSC/IDPA shooters using Baers. Most use the slidestop to release.

 

[WhiskeyWebber]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

A 1911 that costs $600 should not be expected to run well out of the box. It is not a plastic gun. It does not represent value. As has been said about Kimber above... they are not the greatest. The best "value" out there is probably Baer or Dan Wesson... and for a no frills model, expect to pay between $1,500 and $2,000. They will likely be accurate and run.

If you have high expectations for a $600 gun, that is great, just don't buy a 1911. You will be disappointed every single time.</div></div>

Buy an STI Spartan. I suspect you'll eat your words and be pleasantly surprised.

</div></div>
My STI Spartan cost me $650 and that's with a $100 trigger job from Brazos. I bought it as a beginner .45 1911 4 yrs ago. I've never seen the need to try another 1911. My other carry gun is G-17 so I have two cheapies, the problem is that they both have fed perfectly in 10k rounds of cheap Blazer ammo and they hit whatever I'm pointing at. So, I run the cheapest guns with the cheapest ammo and from what I can tell, both outshoot my friends' Kimbers all day long. Of course before a match or practice session, I get the "when you're ready to step up to something nice" conversation. I just smile and nod and usually after we're done practicing they all want to hold the Spartan. The only guns I've seen shoot better than the Spartan are the double stack STIs like the Edge. I have seen fully custom Baers, Wessons, and Wilson Combats that shoot well but you're talking about $2k++. I'm not a real experienced action pistol type competitor but in my 10 or so matches I've seen enough Kimbers break or malfunction to say they are not even on my list of consideration for my next gun. Now, I don't see the Spartan lasting as long as a STI Edge, Wesson, etc. but out of the box accuracy and reliability is pretty dang unbelievable for a $600 gun.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

A 1911 that costs $600 should not be expected to run well out of the box. It is not a plastic gun. It does not represent value. As has been said about Kimber above... they are not the greatest. The best "value" out there is probably Baer or Dan Wesson... and for a no frills model, expect to pay between $1,500 and $2,000. They will likely be accurate and run.

If you have high expectations for a $600 gun, that is great, just don't buy a 1911. You will be disappointed every single time.</div></div>

Buy an STI Spartan. I suspect you'll eat your words and be pleasantly surprised.

I've never seen a Baer that would feed from the slide stop being pushed down, even with ball ammo and heavy springs. Fred Kart also insists that Baer can't fit a barrel. If that's what you want to pay two grand for, be my guest.

</div></div>

I didn't know STI's could be had for so cheap. Last time I looked, it was for a 2011, and they all were pretty expensive.

As for not feeding from the slide stop correctly... it works fine on mine. I prefer to slingshot, but I have fed hardball and LSWC via slide stop without issues. There are also many others who seem to do it without issue. I think "never seen a Baer that would feed from the slide stop being pushed down" is a bit strongly worded. But I suspect if you have had the issue, others have as well and it is worth noting.

Before I buy another 1911, I will buy a plastic 45 and a Glock in 9mm unless I can't help myself and buy a Baer Monolith.

 

[WhiskeyWebber]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

yeah, the STI Spartan is the low end of their single stack 1911 line... all of the 2011 models are double stack

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

The numbers I was looking at were similar to a Baer... but again, that was for the 2011 line. I decided I would rather have a semi-custom than high capacity for the same money, but I definitely looked into it. I really liked the fact that they are in Texas. You can actually find a few on the ranges here if you look around.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

A 1911 that costs $600 should not be expected to run well out of the box. It is not a plastic gun. It does not represent value. As has been said about Kimber above... they are not the greatest. The best "value" out there is probably Baer or Dan Wesson... and for a no frills model, expect to pay between $1,500 and $2,000. They will likely be accurate and run.

If you have high expectations for a $600 gun, that is great, just don't buy a 1911. You will be disappointed every single time.</div></div>

Buy an STI Spartan. I suspect you'll eat your words and be pleasantly surprised.

I've never seen a Baer that would feed from the slide stop being pushed down, even with ball ammo and heavy springs. Fred Kart also insists that Baer can't fit a barrel. If that's what you want to pay two grand for, be my guest.

</div></div>

Then Fred Kart must be a moron, and I don't think he is a moron, so that just seems like a statement he wouldn't make. Baer guns group amazingly well, and Les obviously knows how to fit a barrel.

My Premier II printed 5, 8 round groups all under 1.8" center to center at 25 yards with ball ammo from a bench in my hands with my eyes (bo-mar irons), on one piece of paper. I was thoroughly impressed, and if that barrel wasn't fit properly I don't know how someone would make the argument it wasn't. I bought that gun used after some wealthy California IPSC competitor finished a season with it and bought a new gun for the next year (AKA it had 5000-10,000 rounds through it).

My gun would also chamber a round from the magazine from slide lock when I depressed the slide stop to drop the slide (the way I loaded the 5 mags to shoot the aforementioned groups).

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Fred Kart also insists that Baer can't fit a barrel. If that's what you want to pay two grand for, be my guest.
</div></div>

I missed that quote. Kart does the rifling on all Baer barrels. For political reasons alone, I seriously doubt he would say that. You don't bite the hand that feeds you. If you have a link to that quote, I would like to read it.

FWIW, I got everything I could imagine on my Baer including tritium sights, the 1.5"@50yd guarantee, and a hard chrome job and spent south of $2,000. I would think a bone stock blued Premier II would cost significantly less than $2K from Crazy John.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

I'm not sure of the history of the quote, but Baer is also supposedly no longer using Kart barrels and makes his own now.

I'm not saying Baers are junk, but the ones I've seen were so tight that they would not function reliably. I have never actually seen a shooter get through a match without a malfunction with a Les Baer 1911.

I don't claim to be the almighty God of 1911s, and I'm just sharing my experience. I also don't get to staff and shoot as many matches as I'd like.

If I had what a Baer costs to spend on a 1911, I would not buy a Baer. That's not saying they're not decent guns, because they are. But I'm not a bullseye shooter, you probably aren't either, and the minute difference in accuracy from having a gun fit that tight isn't a benefit when it doesn't function reliably.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

Baer makes their own barrels, but Kart does the rifling.

I was concerned about Baer being too tight, so I talked to a lot of people before I bought. I was looking at Baer, Brown, Wilson Combat, Volkmann, and Nighthawk. I ended up narrowing it down to Baer and Brown because of price / value.

Talking to people who owned both Baers and Browns, it sounded like they were as reliable as eachother. If anything, fewer people had issues with Baer than Brown, but there was certainly no significant difference. The fit and finish is better on a Brown. I see that now. It is not so much on the outside of the pistol as when you get into the guts. There are tooling marks inside the dust cover of my Baer, for example. People who have owned both have also said that the trigger is better on the Brown... but it is pretty close. Baers have a reputation for being more accurate and they are cheaper than Brown, so I ended up going with Baer. No buyer's remorse here.

Honestly, I would be fine owning any of those guns. Had I known about the Dan Wesson 1911's, I probably would have gone that direction, because again, it is every bit as good as the other semi-customs and it is even cheaper than Baer.

Now, I should point out that I got a Baer with the 1.5" guarantee which gets some additional fitting. Contrary to popular belief, the 1.5" guarantee Baers are actually looser, not tighter than the ones without.

The only issues I have had with reliability are a few limp wrists at the beginning as well as a couple of failures to go into battery in the first 500 rounds. After that, I have had no issues (other than not putting enough crimp when I first started handloading). I have about 5,000 rounds through it and have had no issues apart from those few in the beginning. I also clean and lube my gun religiously and field strip it after almost every range session. That certainly helps with 1911 reliability. You can't treat it like a Glock.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

My Baer I only kept for about 300 rounds simply because the trigger was heavy and I couldn't shoot it offhand as well as my full custom Kimber with a Nowlin barrel which ironically wouldn't shoot as well from the bench (probably a result of the MMC sights not working for me with the Kimber front), but the Kimber had a 2.5lb trigger to the Baer's ~5.5lb trigger.

Later I wished I had kept it and just reduced the trigger weight, but that was a decade ago, and I didn't know how to reduce the 1911's trigger weight and didn't want to ship it to someone for work. I'd had several experiences with custom gunsmiths the worst of which was a 3.5 year wait and I just don't have the patience for that crap anymore.

The Baer didn't have a single malfunction in 300 rounds, but that's all I can say about it. I would expect them to be more reliable than stock 1911's from other cheaper manufacturers personally speaking, regardless of their relatively close tolerances but that is based on my limited experience with mine.

Maybe the guys shooting matches are shooting wadcutters or crappy reloads, or not cleaning and oiling the pistols, or perhaps a combination of both.

 

[Veer_G]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WhiskeyWebber</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah, the STI Spartan is the low end of their single stack 1911 line... <span style="font-weight: bold">all of the 2011 models are double stack</span> </div></div>

And the sky is blue. A 2011 is a 2011 because it <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a double stack. That's what defines it as such.

 

[Unknown]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

I suppose it depends on whether you want an all tricked out 1911 VS the basic government model like was issued in WWII. The original government model guns ran like they were supposed to with the ammo they were supposed to shoot. Any time you tinker with an original design, it gets expensive...just like car engines.

A stock chevy 350 cubic inch motor from the 1970's ran great at 250-300 horsepower. Ratcheting that horsepower up to 700 or so costs lots of money and time tinkering. Same with the 1911 and ball ammo VS the $2000-3000 guns.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

Another analogy is Swiss watches. For years, the Swiss made the best watches with intricate jeweled parts. These were the best watches because they kept time better than any other watch on earth. Then came quartz technology and all of a sudden, anyone could have a watch that kept better time than a Swiss watch... then it became about style and craftsmanship.

The analogy isn't 100%, but the point is that you can get reliability out of a plastic gun that is very expensive to attain in a 1911. Where the analogy falls apart is that there are things about the 1911... trigger and inherent accuracy, for example, that make it better than plastic guns in some respects, which is why it is still relevant and you still see them used in competition today.

 

[shooter1950]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

I have a Kimber 5" 45 with over 3000 rds, no problems, multi brand mags.
also a ACII with over 3000 rds no problems.

A Springfield target 9mm over 4000 rds no problems, springfield mags.

See many people try to make a 4" act like a 5" and have problems.

How many times do you read of someone getting a new gun and making a list of things to change and has never fired the new gun yet. I think many of the problems are owner caused tweaking because the internet said it needed tweeked.

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I have never actually seen a shooter get through a match without a malfunction with a Les Baer 1911.</div></div>

What's your point? I've witnessed multiple Glock malfunctions on a single stage.

My Baer was so tight when new I expected malfunctions. Six months and 6K to 7K rounds and I'm still waiting. Maybe if I switch to ball.

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure of the history of the quote, but Baer is also supposedly no longer using Kart barrels and makes his own now.

I'm not saying Baers are junk, but the ones I've seen were so tight that they would not function reliably. I have never actually seen a shooter get through a match without a malfunction with a Les Baer 1911.

I don't claim to be the almighty God of 1911s, and I'm just sharing my experience. I also don't get to staff and shoot as many matches as I'd like.

If I had what a Baer costs to spend on a 1911, I would not buy a Baer. That's not saying they're not decent guns, because they are. But I'm not a bullseye shooter, you probably aren't either, and the minute difference in accuracy from having a gun fit that tight isn't a benefit when it doesn't function reliably.</div></div>

Baer's frequently ship with shock buffs, so they pretty much HAVE to use the slide release.

In my experience, with dozens of Baer's, I've never seen a single one that wouldn't chamber using the slide release.

A good buddy of mine got a SuperTac that was so tight I couldn't rack it when it was brand new. I literally had to thumb the hammer to get the slide open. The gun never stopped once, not even during the "break in". I took that gun to a LAV 1911 class and it ran the whole time for me, he's got another 8k rounds on it, and other than a new recoil spring or two, and a cleaning every 1k rounds, the gun just runs.

None of us ever chamber rounds with it via slingshot, unless the slide is forward before the mag goes in.

LB used to run the Springfield Custom Shop... he knows a thing or two about building guns and fitting barrels.

Chamber dimensions can be tight on his guns, but I've never seen problems with his guns that a reamer didn't clear right up. Seen that twice, but those are the ONLY problems I know of, knowing multiple owners of multiple Baer's.

 

[TXTransplant]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

Had the same problem with a Kimber, CDP Pro II. Nightmare. Constant failure to go into battery from minute one. They suggested a new recoil spring but never sent it. Finally bought it myself. Improved greatly but still doesn't always go into battery. Relieved the underside of extractor myself and the gun now works.

What a fucking joke. Meanwhile my Springer runs like a top. When it stopped running like a top, they sent me a free overnight shipping package and fixed it and I had it back in a couple of days.

Obviously there are a lot of good companies out there with good CS. Kimber is not even remotely one of them. Never again.

 

[wgunn]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
None of the manufacturers are building 1911's and fitting parts at that price point, they're all assembling them from boxes of parts.</div></div>
Jim,

My Springfield TRP has all the key/critical components hand etched with the serial number of the gun - presumably because each of these parts were fit to that particular gun during assembly at SA and are numbered to keep them together.

Here's a shot of the internals of my TRP:

You can see that the slide, barrel, extractor and ejector all have a hand etched serial number on them.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MilitaryArms</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
None of the manufacturers are building 1911's and fitting parts at that price point, they're all assembling them from boxes of parts.</div></div>
Jim,

My Springfield TRP has all the key/critical components hand etched with the serial number of the gun - presumably because each of these parts were fit to that particular gun during assembly at SA and are numbered to keep them together.

Here's a shot of the internals of my TRP:

You can see that the slide, barrel, extractor and ejector all have a hand etched serial number on them.</div></div>

His comment was about $600 1911's. The TRP is a $1,200+ gun to the best of my knowledge.

 

[wgunn]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MilitaryArms</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
None of the manufacturers are building 1911's and fitting parts at that price point, they're all assembling them from boxes of parts.</div></div>
Jim,

My Springfield TRP has all the key/critical components hand etched with the serial number of the gun - presumably because each of these parts were fit to that particular gun during assembly at SA and are numbered to keep them together.

Here's a shot of the internals of my TRP:

You can see that the slide, barrel, extractor and ejector all have a hand etched serial number on them.</div></div>

His comment was about $600 1911's. The TRP is a $1,200+ gun to the best of my knowledge. </div></div>
Ahh, thanks. My bad.

 

[Grump]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

That TRP has the ejector bevel that I had to put onto the Kimber's.

Increased extractor tension, as said above, reduced the in the face ejection. The ejector bevel finished eliminating it.

Glad yours works. One source says that Springfield nitro-carburizes their slides and frames. If true, I really like that.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Maybe the guys shooting matches are shooting wadcutters or crappy reloads, or not cleaning and oiling the pistols, or perhaps a combination of both. </div></div>

I'm not bragging or anything, but I have staffed some very large matches with some very experienced shooters. They are certainly not idiots and are perfectly capable of reloading reliable ammo and cleaning and lubricating their firearms.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I have never actually seen a shooter get through a match without a malfunction with a Les Baer 1911.</div></div>

What's your point? I've witnessed multiple Glock malfunctions on a single stage.

My Baer was so tight when new I expected malfunctions. Six months and 6K to 7K rounds and I'm still waiting. Maybe if I switch to ball. </div></div>

My point is that while the sample size isn't as large as I'd like in order to draw any significant conclusions, the number of malfunctions that I've observed with Baer firearms is utterly unacceptable for the price point and the supposed experience of the gunsmith.

I have never experienced such pathetic results from STI, and I will continue to buy and own their firearms unless I build the gun myself or I know the gunsmith personally.

You can spend your money on whatever you want. Personally, I do not think Baer's guns are worth the money.

In fact, I don't really think any $1500 1911s are worth the money, but that's another issue...

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You can spend your money on whatever you want. Personally, I do not think Baer's guns are worth the money.

In fact, I don't really think any $1500 1911s are worth the money, but that's another issue...</div></div>

I am just going to have to disagree with you right there. First, I think that the semi-customs represent the best value going. They are hand-fitted pistols, which allows them to be both reliable and accurate.

STI is a production gun with a bunch of MIM parts. That just doesn't lend itself to reliability.

The best of the best will always be a top smith creating a custom gun. Check out the Louder than Words site for some examples that will make you drool and break the bank. I think the money is ridiculous for those, but to each his own.

Going from production to semi-custom to custom, price goes up as does quality. Each person gets to choose what delivers the value in each of these steps.

Here is a great review that compares 1911's. STI isn't in there, but you can learn a lot about the different philosophies of building a 1911 by reading this comparison:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=321236

It is interesting to note the different philosophies between Baer and Wesson for instance. Baer meticulously hand fits all parts. Wesson CNC machines most parts to very tight tolerances and then minimizes fitting. Different philosophies of craftsmanship to achieve the same end...

 

[Downzero]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You can spend your money on whatever you want. Personally, I do not think Baer's guns are worth the money.

In fact, I don't really think any $1500 1911s are worth the money, but that's another issue...</div></div>

I am just going to have to disagree with you right there. First, I think that the semi-customs represent the best value going. They are hand-fitted pistols, which allows them to be both reliable and accurate.

STI is a production gun with a bunch of MIM parts. That just doesn't lend itself to reliability.</div></div>

I would like to point this out for anyone else who reads this thread, because anyone who mentions MIM in a discussion about the quality of 1911s has already lost the argument.

The CONNECTING RODS in the car you drive are probably made with MIM. It is more than sufficient for making a thumb safety.

I did not say that there are not more features on a $1500 1911 than a $600 or a $1000 one. I said that I don't think they're worth it at that price point, because many times you will not get a hand fit pistol for that price, and you will not get to pick the individual features.

For $6-1200, STI will build you an exceptionally well-fit pistol with a cookie-cutter list of features and a few options. It will come with the same trigger components that their $2000-3000 2011s come with.

It's your money. Spend it wherever you want. But the burden is on you to justify how "hey, OMG, the grip safety might be MIM" justifies a price that is significantly higher. The internet might have told you so, but some time at the range would probably contradict that rather quickly.

My Kimber is 12 years old and still has every MIM part in it that came from the factory, with the possible exception of its trigger, since I replaced that with a different style.

 

[Super Bee 950]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

I have a couple Rock River 45's and a Les Baer. They are all more accurate than I am. Never had a problem with either.

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

MIM done right works. That said, I've seen broken MIM thumb safeties before on S&W's and I think a Para.

The MIM parts in Colts and Springfields I've never seen fail.

STI is known for putting out good guns that run. The magazines for their double stacks are a different story, but there is a reason they have a large following with lots of people that shoot lots of rounds through them. I'd trust their MIM parts until I saw reason not to (which I haven't yet).

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not bragging or anything, but I have staffed some very large matches with some very experienced shooters. They are certainly not idiots and are perfectly capable of reloading reliable ammo and cleaning and lubricating their firearms.</div></div>

But not smart enough to keep them in operating order...or buy a better gun?

I'm not bragging, but I've been competing, officiating and directing matches since the mid-80s. I've shot matches with world class shooters and scads of master class shooters, some sponsored by Baer. The flag went up as soon as you made the "never finished a match" statement.

 

[fasteddie565]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

Eddie, Downrange,
Good to see you guys have been holding the line.

OK, on to Fast Eddie's Kimber experiences.

My first Kimber was a Custom TAC II. Bought it from an SF Bubba who said it had been reworked by a notable smith (name fails me, sorry) it ran like a scalded ape.

Enter my first NIB Kimber, a Pro Raptor, blued. Every other mag was a malfunction. This is when I invented my patented Kimber break in technique, this is patented so don't share it with any one.

Disassemble, put cheap, white colgate toothpaste on the slide and rails.

Re Assemble, work the action 247 - 253 times, but no more

Disassemble, clean and repeat.

Yes this is merely lapping the slide to the frame, but it has worked on every Kimber I have owned with which I have had feeding issues.

Of the dozen I have / still own, the only other issue is my Ultra Super Carry (A series I gun for you FP block aficionados) I too had issues with the the slide stop. I put the file to it and it has been my EDC for over a year now. I also carry the Pro Super Carry as well.

I read about MIM parts, but have several thousand rounds if not more through each Kimber I currently own. While I am considering buying wolf springs, My smith says the MIM parts are in good shape. YMMV.

to the OP, while you stated you were ranting, It sounds like a slight hint of disappointed exhilaration, almost like "Damn, now I have to work the problems out and fix this pistol....."

 

[Downzero]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

Newest application I have recently discovered that uses MIM: the fan blades in airliners.

I hope you guys never fly, at least not in jet aircraft.

I hope this demonstrates the ridiculousness that is the concern regarding MIM.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Newest application I have recently discovered that uses MIM: the fan blades in airliners.

I hope you guys never fly, at least not in jet aircraft.

I hope this demonstrates the ridiculousness that is the concern regarding MIM.</div></div>

It's more or less MIM that isn't done properly that fails correct? MIM in itself done right so to speak is perfectly fine from what i understood. I think it's preference thing as well. I find myself not wanting MIM even knowing what you've shown examples of and so on. Sounds stupid but just a preference for me personally.

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

Watched an F15 burn to the ground after the blades came apart and fragged the fuel cell.

 

[Big_Rig_416]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

Ive got a kimber target and it runs perfectly. Crisp trigger, adjustable sights, i think ive only had 1 stovepipe in probably around 1000 rounds ive put through it. Love it!

 

[Downzero]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Watched an F15 burn to the ground after the blades came apart and fragged the fuel cell. </div></div>

Not saying it hasn't happened, merely that the probability is sufficiently small that hundreds of millions of dollars depend on MIM technology every single day.

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fast eddie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes this is merely lapping the slide to the frame, but it has worked on every Kimber I have owned with which I have had feeding issues.
</div></div>

Slide to frame fit shouldn't impact feeding in any significant way. The geometry, length, and finish of the feedramp; the dimensions of the chamber, the breechface dimensions and texture, and the extractor all play a critical role in feeding.

Reducing some friction in the slide to frame fit shouldn't impact feeding reliability any more than properly lubricating the gun should. Friction experience through the travel of the slide is minimal relative to the friction and resistance the round being extracted and chambered experiences.

 

[rferrell]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

thoughts on wilson combat 1911

 

[Downzero]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Slide to frame fit shouldn't impact feeding in any significant way. The geometry, length, and finish of the feedramp; the dimensions of the chamber, the breechface dimensions and texture, and the extractor all play a critical role in feeding.

Reducing some friction in the slide to frame fit shouldn't impact feeding reliability any more than properly lubricating the gun should. Friction experience through the travel of the slide is minimal relative to the friction and resistance the round being extracted and chambered experiences. </div></div>

Don't forget ammunition and springs, especially the recoil spring.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Rant on Kimber & "Not Cheap" 1911s in General

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Slide to frame fit shouldn't impact feeding in any significant way. The geometry, length, and finish of the feedramp; the dimensions of the chamber, the breechface dimensions and texture, and the extractor all play a critical role in feeding.

Reducing some friction in the slide to frame fit shouldn't impact feeding reliability any more than properly lubricating the gun should. Friction experience through the travel of the slide is minimal relative to the friction and resistance the round being extracted and chambered experiences. </div></div>

Don't forget ammunition and springs, especially the recoil spring. </div></div>

Both of you left out the most important one... the magazine.