Fieldcraft Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

[ReaperDriver]

In current training and doctrine - how much emphasis is placed on rapid fire against multiple target with a bolt gun vs the stealthy one shot/one kill mentality?

The reason I ask is because I participated in my 1st "tactical" match and it really seemed to emphasize timed rapid fire with mag changes (for those who had box mags) instead of what I always thought of as what a traditional sniper would be trained to do i.e. a single long range precise shot. I realize these civilian so-called "tac matches" are anything but representative of reality - but I'm just curious how much the Army, Marines, SOCOM, etc train to that kind of rapid fire style of shooting with a bolt gun.

I get that if your position is being overrun or you are in a firefight, that ability to rapid fire and engage multiple targets is important - but how much does that happen in theater compared to a tradiional sniper role?

Thanks in advance?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

The traditional thinking of 1 slow stealthy shot is only practical with limited application. Its not 1968 any more the tactics have changed to address the current battlefield.

At best we train them <span style="font-style: italic">(and some just left this morning)</span> to plan for the 1st shot hit, but to be prepared for a second shot follow up in 3 to 5 seconds. In some Special Operations circles the second shot is considered more important than the first because it gauges the true ability of the shooter to correct off the first shot. If you really think about it, objectively, picking someone up and putting them down blind anywhere in the world and expecting them to get a 1st round hit, at any distance is not a realistic one. Most train to own a specific range within their area of operation, usually inside 600m, their personal danger space and what is considered inside "danger close" with supporting munitions.

Multiple targets at multiple distances are very valid, consider a group of men planting an IED at night. If you only planned to shoot one, you missed 4 other opportunities, so you have to be able to engage them all on the move.

We actually do a drill called moving chaos, multiple targets, multiple distances, under time with a mover thrown in. Target moves from right to left, shooter engages then transitions to other targets before the mover returns back from left to right.

Also with multiple targets the standard drill is about 3 seconds per round with all hits for at least 5 rounds. We do that out to 600 yards on 12" plates for them. <span style="font-style: italic">(I have seen it done with all hits in 9 seconds)</span>

You hope for the best and train for the worst, an attack consisting of a large number of enemy is one possibility, as many deploy to forward bases some distance away with limited resources.

We work with many elements as you describe and speed combined with accuracy is very important. Each class for at least 3 days we work the Sniper's Hide dot target, the one with 21 dots. We work it on the move, from position, in a variety of ways. One constant is always a decreasing time allowance, as far down as 6 seconds from the standing to the gun and on target with a shot.

The point to all this, why leave a target without engaging because you believe in way of thinking established in the Revolutionary War, we're not playing assassin, you're protecting your fellow Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine. So the more you can eliminate the better. Hathcock hunting a General in the jungles, ya, he may need one stealthy shot, during the Battle for Fallujah, you better be running the bolt, and hitting your target.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We actually do a drill called moving chaos, multiple targets, multiple distances, under time with a mover thrown in. Target moves from right to left, shooter engages then transitions to other targets before the mover returns back from left to right.

Also with multiple targets the standard drill is about 3 seconds per round with all hits for at least 5 rounds. We do that out to 600 yards on 12" plates for them. <span style="font-style: italic">(I have seen it done with all hits in 9 seconds)</span>
</div></div>
And this is the hardest stage of any match I've shot in! But a good one and very challenging.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The traditional thinking of 1 slow stealthy shot is only practical with limited application. Its not 1968 any more the tactics have changed to address the current battlefield.

At best we train them <span style="font-style: italic">(and some just left this morning)</span> to plan for the 1st shot hit, but to be prepared for a second shot follow up in 3 to 5 seconds. In some Special Operations circles the second shot is considered more important than the first because it gauges the true ability of the shooter to correct off the first shot. If you really think about it, objectively, picking someone up and putting them down blind anywhere in the world and expecting them to get a 1st round hit, at any distance is not a realistic one. Most train to own a specific range within their area of operation, usually inside 600m, their personal danger space and what is considered inside "danger close" with supporting munitions.

Multiple targets at multiple distances are very valid, consider a group of men planting an IED at night. If you only planned to shoot one, you missed 4 other opportunities, so you have to be able to engage them all on the move.

We actually do a drill called moving chaos, multiple targets, multiple distances, under time with a mover thrown in. Target moves from right to left, shooter engages then transitions to other targets before the mover returns back from left to right.

Also with multiple targets the standard drill is about 3 seconds per round with all hits for at least 5 rounds. We do that out to 600 yards on 12" plates for them. <span style="font-style: italic">(I have seen it done with all hits in 9 seconds)</span>

You hope for the best and train for the worst, an attack consisting of a large number of enemy is one possibility, as many deploy to forward bases some distance away with limited resources.

We work with many elements as you describe and speed combined with accuracy is very important. Each class for at least 3 days we work the Sniper's Hide dot target, the one with 21 dots. We work it on the move, from position, in a variety of ways. One constant is always a decreasing time allowance, as far down as 6 seconds from the standing to the gun and on target with a shot.

The point to all this, why leave a target without engaging because you believe in way of thinking established in the Revolutionary War, we're not playing assassin, you're protecting your fellow Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine. So the more you can eliminate the better. Hathcock hunting a General in the jungles, ya, he may need one stealthy shot, during the Battle for Fallujah, you better be running the bolt, and hitting your target. </div></div>
Fantastic explanation! Thanks!

ETA: I guess your explanation is exactly why I asked the question - because I was thinking that if the emphasis is now on rapid fire and accurate follow on shots because of the dynamics of the modern battlefield - are operators moving towards gas-guns over Bolt guns to have the ability for fast follow-on shots?

 

[Lindy]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

The Army is replacing the M24 with the M110 semi-auto. The Marines are replacing the 5-round internal box magazine of the M40A3 with detachable magazines, and also have deployed the SR25/M110.

The Army will be converting some M24s to .300 Winchester Magnum for longer-range engagements, and both services as well as Naval special operations are either studying bigger cartridges - .338 Lapua Magnum, for one - or are already using them.

The British and Canadian armies have already deployed .338 LMs.

So, the trend is toward gas guns for shorter range use, and magnum bolt guns for longer ranges.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

I think that is someone's thinking, but honestly, done correctly the speed is pretty close to the same. Although the 9 seconds was done with a gas gun... but most tailor the system the AO... they, Special Operators, have options, and usually exploit the best option for the situation.

Accuracy is the key, there is a bit more chance of error with the gas gun if the operator is not experienced in driving one over the other. It's much easier for a new shooter to "think" he can shoot faster with a gas gun, but they tend to sacrifice accuracy in doing so if they are not careful. Once versed in gas gun operations they are usually pretty good with them and can hit below an MOA with a system rated for 1.5MOA.

But most employ a gas gun of some kind.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that is someone's thinking, but honestly, done correctly the speed is pretty close to the same. Although the 9 seconds was done with a gas gun... but most tailor the system the AO... they, Special Operators, have options, and usually exploit the best option for the situation.

Accuracy is the key, there is a bit more chance of error with the gas gun if the operator is not experienced in driving one over the other. It's much easier for a new shooter to "think" he can shoot faster with a gas gun, but they tend to sacrifice accuracy in doing so if they are not careful. Once versed in gas gun operations they are usually pretty good with them and can hit below an MOA with a system rated for 1.5MOA.

But most employ a gas gun of some kind. </div></div>
Good stuff. Thank you.

 

[Arch]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

Great explanations, and the moving chaos idea sounds like something that needs to be incorporated both near and far. Some of the explanations from the earlier big fight in the sand indicated that the one shot was like stirring a bees nest in that a lot more bees would suddenly appear. Not to dampen the spirits of those that like to end the lives of those that sting, every option to deliver more bullets was considered.

Some people often forget that accuracy is the very best suppression.

I do worry that all of the combo deals in weapons and optics will eventually make someone ask why all the time and ammo is spent on training.

Training in accuracy is key also...

 

[MarcC11B]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

I just graduated Sniper School yesterday. They added the M110(and a 9mm qual on top of the M24 and M107) to the program and two more quals. A KD stationary/mover qual and a timed UKD multiple engagement qual using hold offs out to 600m. Lots of fun and good training.
The M110 wasn't supposed to replace the M24 but rather compliment it as the spotter's weapon. A lot of units, including mine, were under the replacement assumption and planned on doing such. All the sniper section has to do to keep their M24's is to write a letter to their commander and he can let them keep them if so desired. The M110 absolutely rocks against multiple targets as you can immagine, but for shots past 600m everybody wanted to go with their M24's for the better (a lot better) accuracy.

 

[sinister]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

The contractor who wrote the 2005 XM-110 Infantry Semi-Automatic Sniper Rifle Requirements Document DID specify the XM-110 was to REPLACE the M24 on a 1-for-1 basis, ignoring the input of the Sniper School, SOTIC, and the AMU. That was officially fixed (I hope) this past February when the Army officially stated the M24 will be re-chambered for .300 Win Mag until USSOCOM selects its 33-magnum Long Range Sniper System.

The M-110 remains the semi-auto sniper/spotter rifle.

 

[NOMAD]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

Good info and the key here is also the AO. If you find yoru self moving in teh urban envirnoment with the need to be able to room clear and then have to take precision shots the gas gun will be your best friend!!

 

[sinister]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

If you're room-clearing with a full-length M-110 your mission and threat analysis sucked.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

Better that than an M107...

 

[no1ryno]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're room-clearing with a full-length M-110 your mission and threat analysis sucked. </div></div>

How is that?

 

[Urimaginaryfrnd]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

length and weight and the wrong optic. A 12 ga would be better for room clearing or something with an aimpoint or ACOG lower magnification the better up close.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

However, it may be useful to consider that often the best weapon to have in a firefight is the one you have in your hands when the fight starts.

Which doesn't mean that you might not want to transition to a better weapon when the opportunity presents itself.

However, my favorite device for house clearing is a <span style="font-style: italic">House Guest</span>, described in this link:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Marines+share+hard-earned+knowledge-a0133976518

It does the whole house at once.

 

[Graham]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

It's not ideal to have to alternate betweeen CQB and long range precision shots using the same system, but it's possible. Sniper CQB is just regular CQB, but slower and quieter. Which brings to the fore one's skill with a with a pistol: like chivalry, it's not dead, it's just that its effectiveness is dependent on good timing.

 

[sinister]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

Close Quarters Combat -- Surprise, Speed, and Violence of Action.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sniper CQB is just regular CQB, but slower and quieter.</div></div>

What in the heck does that mean?

 

[Urimaginaryfrnd]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> .......
However, my favorite device for house clearing is a <span style="font-style: italic">House Guest</span>, ....

</div></div>

Lovely -- I wonder how it works on a larger scale like say using the entire Iraq oil field. I kind of think we need to withdraw and experiment with this idea. I mean really no 8 yrs into this war and my son's in the green zone - Sather AFB - and this was what he said:
.... and also the fire station got attacked today by rockets and small arms and almost blew the f**kin station up. everyone is fine nobody got hurt. dude all i could hear was this whistle sound and i was like oh f**k and hit the deck and the other guys saw me and hit the deck and were laughin and then BOOM everyone was like oh sh*t and nobody was laughin anymore and then you could hear ak's goin off like crazy
idk all i know is i was standin outside the station and i hear crack crack crack and was like what the f**k and then a whistle sound and i hit the deck and then bangbangbangbangbang and then BOOM a f**kin rocket hit and then you could hear the army guys fire back with the m16s and the 50s n sh*t and for like 5-10 min it was gunfire

no this wasnt from a far distance there were multiple hits all near us and EOD they were shootin our way directly......

Really think we are winning the hearts and minds - I say pull back and Nuke the bastards.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

Well, we invested the farm in the 'hearts and minds' principle back in 'Nam, and we all know how wonderfully well that worked.

In a perfect world we'd have been golden, and the Republic of South Vietnam would be a staunch ally and productive contributer to the Southeast Asian economic community. Funny how things turn out.

Funnier still how lessons learned at immense cost become debatable and are discarded after a new generation of politicians takes the reins.

Thanks, America, for negating the sacrifices 53,000+ Americans contributed with their lives a few decades back. Nice to know they died for precisely nothing, and that the same process is well into its course all over again.

Sorry, but I'm stepping out for a pee break. This is where I came in the last time...

 

[Graham]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Close Quarters Combat -- Surprise, Speed, and Violence of Action.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sniper CQB is just regular CQB, but slower and quieter.</div></div>What in the heck does that mean? </div></div>It means don't believe eveything you are told in training. It means don't repeat what you hear without thinking. It means that when you sign up for the Navy you don't always get to see the world. It means that soldiering isn't always fun and glorious, that sometimes it is boring. It means that we must not only learn tactics, but learn to apply them to the situations when we do not have the best equipment or the proper manpower for the assigned task. It means that, for snipers, clearing rooms and buildings isn't always a surprise, isn't always fast, and when done correctly it's rarely violent. It means that the tactics are the same, but the objective is different.

 

[sinister]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

I'm not quite sure what to think of that.

I have so much to learn.

Then again, I'm still just a cherry.

 

[MarcC11B]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're room-clearing with a full-length M-110 your mission and threat analysis sucked. </div></div>

That's why you run with a security element...and now have a 9mm qual (as shitty a weapon as it may be).

 

[acehigh]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

Sinister,
How you been? Haven't talked to you in a long time. My fault not yours. You know xactly what to think. You're just bein the gentlemen you were raised to be. And if you're a cherry.....whadda we make of 98% of the rest?
John

 

[81STFACP]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acehigh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sinister,
You're just bein the gentlemen you were raised to be. And if you're a cherry.....whadda we make of 98% of the rest?
John </div></div>

+++ Had the pleasure of meeting and chatting with his Dad and brother at Perry one year. It runs in his family.

 

[Graham]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have so much to learn. Then again, I'm still just a cherry.</div></div>That's one of the most mature replies I have seen in a while. Well said. Your decorations are impressive, and I don't think anyone considers you to be a 'cherry'. I didn't mean to offend, I was just answering in the same tone as the question was asked. And I agree: we all have much to learn; in my case the goal is not to rely on anything I may have done in the past, but to improve in the future. If you, or friends who felt you were under attack, have anything substantive to add to what I said I welcome it.

 

[sinister]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

Watching the boys hunting in Baghdad last spring was refreshing. I had gone through sniper school with an M21 (when dinosaurs roamed the Earth), then transitioned units to the bolt gun/semi mix in the 80s.

The 300s and M24s are definitive first-shot killers while the semis took care of the runners trying to squirt out of the engagement area. Once you whack the first one you get lots of knuckleheads trying to escape, return fire, or recover bodies, IED triggers, machineguns, and RPGs.

Far more satisfying than shooting groundhogs and prairie dogs.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The 300s and M24s are definitive first-shot killers while the semis took care of the runners trying to squirt out of the engagement area. Once you whack the first one you get lots of knuckleheads trying to escape, return fire, or recover bodies, IED triggers, machineguns, and RPGs.
</div></div>

That's kinda what I envisioned when I asked the original question. In that scenario, do you have multiple shooters to engage the squirters after the bolt gun gets the 1st shot kill? Or would a M24 shooter swap to a semi after that 1st shot?

Interesting you talk about squirters after the 1st shot. In my line of work, we deal with exactly that same issue. After the 1st bomb or hellfire goes off - there are usually numerous jabronies trying to run away from or run to the explosion. Being able to rapidly re-attack those squirters or have a follow-on shooter ready to employ on them is our biggest tactical puzzle to solve. The follow-on shots are usually much harder than the 1st shot because of the chaos that ensues after the 1st "boom".

 

[Guest]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're room-clearing with a full-length M-110 your mission and threat analysis sucked. </div></div>

After the word mission the word training needs, to be added as well.

Tactics,
In my day (M14's)I was taught to clear rooms with either frags or fire, I prefer fire myself. <span style="font-weight: bold">No One </span> wants to burn alive. Besides if it's burn't to the ground they can't use it again. If we want it for OP reasons, then it's frag time. When that stops working I'll switch to other tactics. And No I don't care or adhere to what the battle-field Lawyers say.

Tactics run with the weapon, the other way around, gets folks in bags.

 

[Graham]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

SSGT G told me that for his group at the OP Hotel security was always an issue, but stealth was not. Others reported that when operating without vehicle support and/or transportation stealth was paramount, speed secondary, and violence meant mission failure. Similar geography; different approaches to getting in and out.

Common to all was the opinion that shot placement ruled the day, especially on those trying to escape, and that in .223 the 77SMK was the best performer by far, especially at 400 and beyond. Bullet performance aside, the advantage to the M4 was the ability to place a few rounds, wait, then place a few more, actively working the area while under glass. Semis, when zero'd correctly for the task, were more efficient at the kinds of snap-shots and follow-ups encountered through openings in buildings and other structures.

 

[sinister]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

Sniper teams usually deploy with multiple snipers. If they could take simultaneous/coordinated group shots that was great, but then you had the crowds of jamokes trying to maneuver on our Engineers putting up T-walls so it was almost like shooting over baited fields.

We also had several groups try to maneuver on our sniper positions. Heads-up squad leaders either maneuvered Strykers or mortars to make sure the boys had outs, and there were pre-planned QRFs that worked as planned for tactical withdrawals.

 

[Urimaginaryfrnd]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

Sinister thanks for your Service. You sound almost old enough to know Sgt Maj. Becvar, or maybe young enough to know my buddy ZOO with 224th Engineers. I hope you were the one that trained your replacements cause my Son's at Sather and it drives me nuts not being able to be there to watch his back. While I'm here guarding the middle of nowhere.

God Bless our Snipers.

 

[Laserguy]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

Interesting stuff guys, Thank you all for your service!

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

We shot rapid fire bolt guns in Highpower - that's a skill I enjoyed learning...different with a scope on but I shoot my best shots as snapshots, focusing too much leaves me room for error..

Good read - glad to hear tactics are changing - teh accuracy of the bolt gun has finally gotten there - and we have experienced soldiers with the opportunity to prove it.



A friend, and I am leaving his name out, came back as a sniper instructor after a tour in Iraq (3-4 years ago) and they were preaching the M24, but truth is he told me he rarely got to use it, everything was under 200 yards - his M4 WAS his sniper rifle.

Sounds like someone somewhere is listening, and realizing that in conflicts such as this - the sniper CAN keep the civilian casualties down to near zero..

 

[Arch]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

From outside, tactics don't change. Somewhere there is a model.

 

[Fredo]

Re: Rapid Fire question for mil/LEO Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then again, I'm still just a cherry.</div></div>


Rofl...

Thanks for that, and your service to our country.