Rate these 223 semiauto's

S

steve123

Lt. Colonel
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 16, 2008
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none of your business
#1
Hi Guys,

I wanted some advise/opinions on these semiauto carbines, especially based on 1st hand experience.

How would you rate these systems overall in order of #1 reliability and #2 accuracy?

Please state weakness's and strengths of each system.

standard AR-15
Aug-MSAR
FN2000
Robinson Arms XCR
Sig556

Any others that I should consider?

Thanks,

Steve
 
#3
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

Add the AUG A3 if you are considering the MSAR. It is excellent.

Since we have been discussing this on another forum here is a cut and paste:

Tier One (Money is no object, I want the best)
Colt
LWRC
Noveske
LMT

Tier One-A (My guy is out of stock or can't get the first 4)
S&W
RRA (specifically the DEA model, the standard ones don't have as many of the important features anymore)

Tier Two (I need a good one but money's tight)
Stag Arms
RRA standard models
CMMG

Tier Three (price is the only concern, it's a plinker and I can live with the bugs
Bushmaster
DPMS
 
#4
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

Check out LWRC too. My friend has two in 5.56 and one REPR in .308.

I shot the .308 yesterday and was stacking them in one hole at 100 yards. I was very impressed, but can't afford one myself
smile.gif


Lee.
 
#6
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

I can only comment on two of the listed (only ones I have handled).

On the AR platform I carry every day a RRA M4, (same rifle as DEA), and have never had any issues with Reliability or Accuracy. That said when my department ordered a batch of 20 all had to go back because of malfunctions. RRA did fix the problem, but rifles were gone for about 3 months. Something to do with the wrong buffer tubes and springs in the guns.

I did own a SIG 556 SWAT, and had no malfunctions ever but it was about a 2 inch gun at 100 yards. Which is not within my standards. Also it weighed a ton. It was traded in for a Daniel Defense M4 and by far is the best AR I have ever owned.

I personally do not like the piston AR's. I know they have their advantages, but I don't like the extra weight in the front of the rifle nor have I seen one that was as accurate as my DDM4. I have no experience with POF, or LWRC. Just don't seen the point in spending the extra money my self. Just my .02 cents, don't know if it will help or not. JAA

 
#7
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

I've had all the 223's youve listed and cant comment as each one serves a purpose. Reliabilty comes down to the conditions it'll be used in. A Keltec is reliable if it's a safe queen!

Sorry I wasnt much help, but I gotta know a little more b4 I can answer this one.

Just my .02

For the money though, from what you listed.... the XRC
 
#8
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

Hey Steve,

I haven’t owned many of these so this may not be much help but I will give you my opinions for what its worth (most of which is based on second hand info).

If you want a piston AR the only one I would consider is the POF. I have heard of too many reliability/durability issues with the others.

I do not like Bullpup type rifles because,
1. The triggers almost always suck.
2. The balance is terrible (to me)
3. Sometimes tactically you are required to shoot weak side and that is impossible due too the location of the ejection port. (FN2000 excluded)

I once heard of a story where some Marines visited an Austrian base. The Austrians were eager to try out the Marines M16A2 rifles. They were of the opinion that the M16 was much more accurate and reliable than the AUG. Sometimes different is not always better.

Of the ones you mentioned I would be much more inclined towards ones that have been adopted for military service such as the AUG and the Sig 556. These rifles have had the benefit of millions in government dollars for R&D. Of all those you mentioned the Sig 556 is probably the most reliable (I feel) but the AR s are lighter and have better ergonomics. The Sig is what would happen if Rolex tried to make an AK-47.

For standard AR s in addition to those previously mentioned such as Colt and Noveske, I also like Daniel Defense as well as ADS. ADS offers a mil-spec AR at a reasonable price that features a mid-length gas port, which means it cycles smoother.

Standard AR type rifles are the most accurate semi-autos because there is no vibration from a piston.

But you already know all of this Steve! Here are some must read articles on the subject.

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81462

http://www.defensereview.com/m4m4a1-carb...eyre-our-fault/

This article is about the Ruger piston AR but there is some good info about pros and cons of other piston AR systems out there.

http://www.defensereview.com/ruger-sr-55...driven-ar-fray/

 
#9
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

I havent heard much about alot of the rifles you listed. Heres my add to this. I have a Bushmaster with the colapsable stock and 11.5 barrel/5.5 flash (not my choice but the price was right) I am building a Bushmaster standard 20". I have had zero problems with my Bushmaster. Ive shot a few RRA AR's and find them equal to the Bushmaster. I can add that if you buy a stock AR it is worth it to upgrade the trigger. I like the RRA NM 2stage it is really nice for the money.
It was already mentioned but I did see in another thread that the Sig556 has bad ergonomics but I cant say I know first hand.
 
#10
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

Sig 556 dont have bad ergonomics- just not as good as AR.

I have an AR "Frankengun" that I built from Bushmaster/Colt/PWA/dpms parts that I have blasted a lot of rounds downrange with nary a malfunction. Just dunk the whole rifle in oil every couple hundred rounds.
 
#11
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WICKEDFISH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never had problems with my Bushmaster or DPMS, they are not LWRC or POF, LMT but they are pretty darn accurate for an out of the box rifle. </div></div>

I've seen more bushmasters and DPMS rifles fail than all the rest of the makes I've encountered at patrol rifle classes combined. If you're buying a rifle for a plinker/range toy, they're fine. Otherwise, avoid them like a spider with herpes. Hell, I haven't had to work on a bushmaster since . . . . . well it's been days. The last one I went over had: broken takedown pin, improperly machined extractor, no staking on RE nut, grossly inadequate staking on carrier key, wrong extractor spring, wrong insert for extractor spring, and non f-marked FSB with the wrong height front sight post making it very hard to zero. But, hey - that's just eight inadequate parts on one rifle. But at least it malfunctioned constantly. The guy save money on it, and it's just as good as Colt.
whistle.gif


Now to the OP

I have used the AUG - kinda neat, but the trigger is very "different" - don't want to say it sucks, as I'm sure one can get used to it. Don't like the manual of arms (reloads very slow and awkward to me) and the inability to transition from shoulder to shoulder because of ejection port location.

I shot the Sig 556 a bit at the last patrol rifle class I helped teach. I had built this thing up in my mind, and was a bit disappointed. First off, the damned thing cut me when I worked the charging handle because it had about 4 acres of rails on it, and I just worked it like an AK (which is what the operatign system reminds me of). Second, the freaking front sight is about the width of a popsicle stick. It's huge.
IMG_0695.jpg

To make up for the ass-blowing front sight, the rear sight sucked donkey crank. Just terrible irons on the thing. Then they also included a cheapo copy of the Aimpoint T1 that is something I'd expect to see on an airsoft gun. The rifle was heavier than almost all the other 5.56 rifles there, but managed to have more felt recoil. The trigger was good, though. So, if you don't mind a crappy rifle built around a decent trigger for a lot of money, it's all you, man.

No experience with the Robinson or FN, but they haven't taken over the firearms world so I suspect they're not all that and a bag of chips. If I get to put either through their paces I'll come back and edit this. But the FN looks ginormous to me, and it would seem difficult to clear a malfunction with the bullpup setup and ejection out the front.

Of your list, a GOOD AR would take like the top 20 slots, then the Sig, then the rest in no particular order.
 
#12
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen more bushmasters and DPMS rifles fail than all the rest of the makes I've encountered at patrol rifle classes combined.</div></div>

Though I wouldn't necessarily argue that DPMS/Bushmaster, etc is of equal quality to some of the premium brands, I would wager that what you have noticed is largely because for every rifle LWRC/LMT/Noveske sells combined, DPMS sells 500, and Bushmaster sells close to 1000.
 
#13
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

For the AUG type rifles you can get what is called the Trigger Tamer and it helps a great deal. The person who sells the TT also will send you a file advising how to tame the trigger even further... That said, it will NEVER be like a Wilson AR Trigger - but as stated above you will get use to it and they are a lot of fun ...
 
#14
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

as was said above - if money is not an object and you want the best:
LWRC
POF
Noveske

They are not in order. I also have DPMS, Olympic and a Bushmaster for plinking. They work fine but they are not the above by any means.
 
#15
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

George at Gunslingers carrys some of these upper end ARs. The listed prices are MAP - e-mail or call for the real prices. The used section even includes a link to a "EDM Arms Windrunner M98 rifle" here at the Hide (worth another look - I like the photos, et. al.).

Of course, there are some other places that sell these at great prices as well.
 
#16
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

Thanks all!!!

6mmFan,

I did learn a few things about AR's by reading the articles that you linked.

I'm tired of my AR's jamming!!! That's why I'm considering other systems.Maybe they will be 99.9% reliable?

I did replace the extractor and spring on my AR with upgraded parts and that helped with extraction reliability.

Maybe I need to try some of those new 20rnd P mags to help feeding problems.That might be most of the problem with my AR in 223 ???.I've got the old GI 30rnd with Magpul followers and new springs.Only one of them works most of the time
frown.gif
.

I've been using my ultrasonic cleaner to clean the BCG and gas tube and am thinking of ordering some slide glide for lube.Is that recommended for AR's? The gun does seem to run better lubed up.

I didn't even know they made different buffer and spring weights.That might be worth a try to.

Anyways...

For a fun experiment I might buy one of the rifles in the first post to shoot for a while and try to trade into all the others,one at a time,to see how I like them.If I end up doing that I'll give some IMO range reports on them.

Keep the comments coming please!

Steve

 
#18
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swedish guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shot a FN FCR aka AK5 used by swedish armed forces as late as late last night,

they are good solid 5,56 semi/autos, shoots great, I have never had a FTF, mal func that was not operator induced.

20071017ak5c112bs4.jpg

</div></div> VERY, very NICE.
cool.gif
 
#21
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

Anybody ever have any experience with the Daewoo K1A1 (DR 200) or the AR-180? You can now find the AR-180B cheap but it has a synthetic lower. Both of these are hard to accessorize but take M-16 mags.
 
#22
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

I’ve got a Robarm XCR and I love it. Here are some of the main points of interest:

• Better ergonomics than an AR. Bolt hold open is in front of trigger and charging handle is on left side allowing you to change mags, clear a malfunction (if that ever happens), or load/unload without removing the rifle from your shoulder.

• Designed around an AK like piston system, not retrofitted after the fact. Makes for a very reliable system. The XCR has a larger stronger bolt and bolt carrier and a fixed extractor. Remember even the LWRCs have had a little trouble with carrier tilt.

• Runs very clean thanks to the piston system, you don’t get any hot gases in the chamber.

• Adjustable gas system with suppressor setting

• It’s pretty accurate for a piston driven assault rifle, around MOA, maybe better with the right ammo and driver.

• Caliber convertible: Change barrel, bolt face, and mag, which takes about 1 minute and you can go from 556 to 6.8 to 7.62x39, and hopefully 6.5 one day.

• Folding Stock

• Robarm just upgraded the trigger, which had been a complaint in the past. The new one is supposed to be great however; I have not tried it yet.

• You get great customer service from Robarm

Of course there are also some downsides:

• You only get parts from one small company; you don’t have the luxury of the huge AR aftermarket industry.

• It’s fairly new product so you don’t have the documented history of reliability.

• New developments and products for the gun are pretty slow to market because of the company being rather small and limited with time and money.

• In all truth I don’t think the barrel retention system is that great, I would like to see something more along the lines of the ACR or the new Beretta.

• It has to be broken in out of the box, 250 to 350 rounds. I think this has something to do with being modular. Different parts drop in rather than have to be fitted. However, it is a good excuse to get out and shoot the hell out of it.

Given the downsides listed I still think it is a great product, and for the price I don’t think it can be beat, especially when guns with the same features are selling for $2500 to $3500.
 
#23
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

I forgot about that one.I actually owned a Daewoo K1A1 (DR 200).It was pretty reliable but wasn't too accurate.Although to be fare I didn't put any match grade ammo through it.Also didn't think the overall quality was that great either.Never owned the AR180.

Steve
 
#24
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen more bushmasters and DPMS rifles fail than all the rest of the makes I've encountered at patrol rifle classes combined.</div></div>

Though I wouldn't necessarily argue that DPMS/Bushmaster, etc is of equal quality to some of the premium brands, I would wager that what you have noticed is largely because for every rifle LWRC/LMT/Noveske sells combined, DPMS sells 500, and Bushmaster sells close to 1000. </div></div>



....AND I'd bet alot of those "Bushy / DPMS" rifles were actually parts kits assembled by people who are not adequately familairized with their rifles.

Some people just like to put down Bushy / DPMS etc so they don't feel QUITE so bad for paying TWICE as much for a Noveske / LMT, etc.

Buy whtcha want, but to claim Bushy / DPMS are junk is ill informed.
 
#25
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 6mmFan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody ever have any experience with the Daewoo K1A1 (DR 200) or the AR-180? You can now find the AR-180B cheap but it has a synthetic lower. Both of these are hard to accessorize but take M-16 mags. </div></div>

DR200....great rifle....good quality....hard to find parts, not as customizable. (By hard, I mean impossible, other than the few AR parts that fit.)

I'd stick with the AR platform, myself. (sold my DR200 a while ago)
 
#26
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gregsjt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I’ve got a Robarm XCR and I love it. Here are some of the main points of interest:

• Better ergonomics than an AR. Bolt hold open is in front of trigger and charging handle is on left side allowing you to change mags, clear a malfunction (if that ever happens), or load/unload without removing the rifle from your shoulder.

• Designed around an AK like piston system, not retrofitted after the fact. Makes for a very reliable system. The XCR has a larger stronger bolt and bolt carrier and a fixed extractor. Remember even the LWRCs have had a little trouble with carrier tilt.

• Runs very clean thanks to the piston system, you don’t get any hot gases in the chamber.

• Adjustable gas system with suppressor setting

• It’s pretty accurate for a piston driven assault rifle, around MOA, maybe better with the right ammo and driver.

• Caliber convertible: Change barrel, bolt face, and mag, which takes about 1 minute and you can go from 556 to 6.8 to 7.62x39, and hopefully 6.5 one day.

• Folding Stock

• Robarm just upgraded the trigger, which had been a complaint in the past. The new one is supposed to be great however; I have not tried it yet.

• You get great customer service from Robarm

Of course there are also some downsides:

• You only get parts from one small company; you don’t have the luxury of the huge AR aftermarket industry.

• It’s fairly new product so you don’t have the documented history of reliability.

• New developments and products for the gun are pretty slow to market because of the company being rather small and limited with time and money.

• In all truth I don’t think the barrel retention system is that great, I would like to see something more along the lines of the ACR or the new Beretta.

• It has to be broken in out of the box, 250 to 350 rounds. I think this has something to do with being modular. Different parts drop in rather than have to be fitted. However, it is a good excuse to get out and shoot the hell out of it.

Given the downsides listed I still think it is a great product, and for the price I don’t think it can be beat, especially when guns with the same features are selling for $2500 to $3500.
</div></div>

That might be the one I try first!

Steve
 
#27
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm tired of my AR's jamming!!!
</div></div>

In my experience, for an AR to jam, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG.

Properly assembled, and cleaned / lubedd (especially lubed) they are VERY reliable.

Can you describe the type of jams?
 
#28
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen more bushmasters and DPMS rifles fail than all the rest of the makes I've encountered at patrol rifle classes combined.</div></div>

Though I wouldn't necessarily argue that DPMS/Bushmaster, etc is of equal quality to some of the premium brands, I would wager that what you have noticed is largely because for every rifle LWRC/LMT/Noveske sells combined, DPMS sells 500, and Bushmaster sells close to 1000. </div></div>

....AND I'd bet alot of those "Bushy / DPMS" rifles were actually parts kits assembled by people who are not adequately familairized with their rifles.

Some people just like to put down Bushy / DPMS etc so they don't feel QUITE so bad for paying TWICE as much for a Noveske / LMT, etc.

Buy whtcha want, but to claim Bushy / DPMS are junk is ill informed.
</div></div>

True enough. There seems to be a "keeping up with the Jones'" issue on the Hide that almost always boils down to "if it isn't 1 of the 'Premium' brands it isn't worth using for anything other than plinking" (with the hint that even plinking with it is questionable).
 
#29
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm tired of my AR's jamming!!!
</div></div>

In my experience, for an AR to jam, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG.

Properly assembled, and cleaned / lubedd (especially lubed) they are VERY reliable.

Can you describe the type of jams? </div></div>

garandman,

The main AR I have is a Armalite M4 match.It's mostly been failure to feed.I think from using old 30rnd military mags,one works pretty good.I tried other aftermarket mags in the past some worked better,some worse.I tried a friends Pmag a couple months ago and that worked good as well.

I had been using those Fed 50gr HP factory ammo.They dive in the mag once in a while.

Then I started to have ejection problems but replaced the extractor spring.Seemed to have solved that problem.

If I use the good mag and more pointed bullets the gun only jamms once every couple hundred rounds,LOL.

Steve
 
#30
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
garandman,

The main AR I have is a Armalite M4 match.It's mostly been failure to feed.I think from using old 30rnd military mags,one works pretty good.I tried other aftermarket mags in the past some worked better,some worse.I tried a friends Pmag a couple months ago and that worked good as well.</div></div>

In my experience, MOST problems with AR's are actually mag problems.

Aftermarket metal mags are a true crap shoot - I own exactly ZERO of them.

USGI mags are near flawless....UNLESS you get a weak mag spring. Then, they are as bad as aftermarket.

I got 2 P-mags....one has this weird habit of double feeding two rounds at once. The other works great.


Also got one Tapco, gifted to me....it seems to run good so far. No failures.

If ya get something other than an AR, yer still prolly gonna wanna get something that uses AR mags....elswise yer gonna pay $40 - 60 for a single mag. Ouch.

But that puts ya in the same pickle... bad mags will still cause failures in non-AR rifles. Which is why my decision was just to get my AR's in good working order, and chuck any mags that are not 100% reliable. (Even a single failure gets a mag sidelined for inspection, and possible disposal)
 
#31
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[True enough. There seems to be a "keeping up with the Jones'" issue on the Hide that almost always boils down to "if it isn't 1 of the 'Premium' brands it isn't worth using for anything other than plinking" (with the hint that even plinking with it is questionable).




</div></div>

It irritates me to see these posts claiming unless you spent $2,000+ on your rifle, its a piece of crap.


Most of my rifles cost more than $2,000, but you can get a fine, reliable, accurate rifle for well less than $1,000 these days.
 
#32
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I would wager that what you have noticed is largely because for every rifle LWRC/LMT/Noveske sells combined, DPMS sells 500, and Bushmaster sells close to 1000.</div></div>

And what is it you'd be willing to wager? I'd say since you have no idea of how many rifles I've seen fired, what brands I've seen, and the number fo actualy rifles that have malfunctioned, you are very likely going to lose that bet. And you somehow took my post, and turned it into a comparison of DPMS and Bushmaster compared to LWRC/LMT/Noveske. I'd say you are clearly talking out of your ass about the quality of the products, what I've seen as a patrol rifle instructor and a career in both military and LE, and the numbers sold by these companies total. And you magically omitted Colt - who has made literraly hundreds of thousands if not millions of this type rifles. Why aren't thier rifles failing at the same rate in the classes I attend and teach? Why are people like Pat Rogers saying the same thing I am about malfunction issues? What exactly is your experience base for making your wagers? I'll be waiting on your expert opinion.
 
#33
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks all!!!

6mmFan,

I did learn a few things about AR's by reading the articles that you linked.

I'm tired of my AR's jamming!!! That's why I'm considering other systems.Maybe they will be 99.9% reliable?

I did replace the extractor and spring on my AR with upgraded parts and that helped with extraction reliability.

Maybe I need to try some of those new 20rnd P mags to help feeding problems.That might be most of the problem with my AR in 223 ???.I've got the old GI 30rnd with Magpul followers and new springs.Only one of them works most of the time
frown.gif
.

I've been using my ultrasonic cleaner to clean the BCG and gas tube and am thinking of ordering some slide glide for lube.Is that recommended for AR's? The gun does seem to run better lubed up.

I didn't even know they made different buffer and spring weights.That might be worth a try to.

Anyways...

For a fun experiment I might buy one of the rifles in the first post to shoot for a while and try to trade into all the others,one at a time,to see how I like them.If I end up doing that I'll give some IMO range reports on them.

Keep the comments coming please!

Steve

</div></div>

What brand is your AR (or ARs), and are they factory?
 
#34
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen more bushmasters and DPMS rifles fail than all the rest of the makes I've encountered at patrol rifle classes combined.</div></div>

Though I wouldn't necessarily argue that DPMS/Bushmaster, etc is of equal quality to some of the premium brands, I would wager that what you have noticed is largely because for every rifle LWRC/LMT/Noveske sells combined, DPMS sells 500, and Bushmaster sells close to 1000. </div></div>



....AND I'd bet alot of those "Bushy / DPMS" rifles were actually parts kits assembled by people who are not adequately familairized with their rifles.

Some people just like to put down Bushy / DPMS etc so they don't feel QUITE so bad for paying TWICE as much for a Noveske / LMT, etc.

Buy whtcha want, but to claim Bushy / DPMS are junk is ill informed.</div></div>

Not at all. They are not good rifles. This is based on 7 years in the Marine Corps, 13 years in LE, being a LE firearms instructor, patrol rifle instructor, Colt armorer . . . and that's just at work. And let's discount my experiences completely. Say I've never seen anything or done anything and am an internet commando. Go over to Lightfighter.net, sign up, and look at Pat Roger's AARs on his EAG carbine classes. Look at what guns are failing most often. Then compare your qualifications to his. Then ask yourself who is ill-informed.
 
#35
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
Not at all. They are not good rifles. This is based on 7 years in the Marine Corps, 13 years in LE, being a LE firearms instructor, patrol rifle instructor, Colt armorer . . . and that's just at work. And let's discount my experiences completely. Say I've never seen anything or done anything and am an internet commando. Go over to Lightfighter.net, sign up, and look at Pat Roger's AARs on his EAG carbine classes. Look at what guns are failing most often. Then compare your qualifications to his. Then ask yourself who is ill-informed.

</div></div>


Bah.


I know what I've seen. Both Bushmaster and DPMS make fine rifles. NOTHING like the problems you describe above.

I'd trust my life to either rifle. (once I'd run it thru its paces, as I'd do with any gun)

The rifles you've seen problems with....are they straight from the factory, or home built kits?

Hint: I could not possibly care less what Pat Rogers opinion is. Really. I beleive what my own eyes see, when it comes to rifle quality.






 
#37
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'd trust my life to either rifle. (once I'd run it thru its paces, as I'd do with any gun)

<span style="color: #FF0000"> Your mistake if you do</span>

The rifles you've seen problems with....are they straight from the factory, or home built kits?

<span style="color: #CC0000"> All factory. Almost all LE issue guns, and they typically don't let their officers build their own guns. Again - do what you want. Not my gunfight. But what I have saying is from what I have seen with my own eyes. YMMV</span>

</div></div>
 
#38
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SPDSNYPR,

Which AR type rifle are you shooting currently ? Are you satisfied with it? and... would you choose another type or brand ?

Steve
</div></div>

Right now, I am issued a Colt 6721 at work. It's the one on the left (pic taken a few days ago - just for the current setup)
101_0134.jpg


Completely happy with it's performance. Never a single issue, and many rounds put through it. When I was doing drug work, I carried this RRA-receivered frankengun for entries and working in and out of cars (where length is a PITA. It's the one on the left. It has changed slightly since this pic. Again, never an issue.

IMG_2607.jpg


The one on the right is what I carry as my primary open-air precision rifle at work. It's an Armalite that I modded quite a bit for reliability and to turn it into an SPR-ish precision rifle (it started out as an A2-type target gun).

As a from the factory patrol rifle, the Colt is superb. The vast majority of our rifles are colts (arond 80ish). We got 6 BMs when we couldn't get colts one year. Terrible rifles. Had to do a lot of work on them to get them to run, and now we only issue them to reserve officers (after we fixed them).

I am at every PD rifle qual and update training. I don't see any issues with our Colt rifles. They run like sewing machines. We've had a couple of OISs with them - including one one week ago (one of our guys put down an ambusher at 68 yards - bravo to him). In fact, in the top pic, 2 of the 3 in that pic have been used to shoot people.

If I were to buy an AR right now, Colt or BCM, no doubt. Smith close third, LMT, RRA (replace the trigger in that one) also good. The Noveske, and LWRC are a little out of my price range, but would take them if someone else bought them happily. I would never trust a DPMS or Bushy for work. Range toy, yes. In fact, I have two DPMS - one is a highpower match gun. But it doesn't get run particularly hard and I went over it and replaced stuff I wanted to make sure it's reliable.

 
#39
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> All factory. Almost all LE issue guns, and they typically don't let their officers build their own guns. Again - do what you want. Not my gunfight. But what I have saying is from what I have seen with my own eyes. YMMV[/color]

</div></div>

Like I says, I go thru all my guns (clean up any manf burrs, check it for fit and function) and then put it thru extensive live fire drills. Currently I own both a DPMS and a Bushy that have been 100% reliable.

And I have seen plenty of other Bushy and DPMS guns with no malfs.

Just from the data you provided, I'd look for the problem NOT with the manufacturer, but with the LE purchasing agency, or the maintenance and care of the LE armorer.

The ciivy Bushy's and DPMS I've seen run fine. The LE ones you've seen don't. I'd say the problem is somewhere upstream from you, but downstream from the manufacturer.

Were I to guess, I'd blame the end users. No offense to police officers - the politcally correct brass fill 90% of their day with paperwork and other politically ocrrect tasks (sensitivity training, etc) , and scant little time for rifle practice / maintenance.
 
#40
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

SPDSNYPR,

Thanks for all the pics and comments! I had a Colt HBAR many years ago and come to think of it that gun was more reliable than the Armalite I have now.

Looks like you prefer Pmags...I guess I better start there with my AR and try some good mags and see how that pans out.

I'm in the process of getting a Rob Arms XCR right now in 223 as of a few minutes ago.That will be fun to try out and see if I like it.I should have it early next week.

Steve
 
#41
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

OK GARANDMAN,

How do you explain that all six of the bushies we got were lemons straight from the factory? OKC PD bought a bunch of bushies - had to send them back. They didn't work. Every patrol rifle class I've taught has about an 80% failure rate with Bushmaster.

IMG_2334.jpg

Typical Colt bolt carrier key. Works fine.

IMG_2333.jpg

One of our Bushmaster carrier keys. Almost no staking. All of them looked like this. To add to this, all had no staking on the RE nut. The FSB was wrong on all. Wrong spring/buffer in all the extractors.

Additionally, the last two patrol rifle instructor classes I went to had 100% failure rates with the bushmasters there. All of the carrier keys came loose. None were from the same agency. This is the instructor class, not the student class. The proficiency level is pretty high.

Chances are, I've seen way more ARs fired than you. Chances are, I've seen more malfunctions, and repaired them than you. Chances are, I've owned more than you. Chances are, I am responsible for the mantenence and inspection of more than you. Oddly enough, the people I know that have the same experience level seem to agree with me on this. Or maybe they're just being nice to my face. But we all seem to get together and bitch about the same shortcomings on the same manufacturers of ARs.

By the way - what is your background in this field? I've told you mine. I'd like to know if you actually have experience, or just are a hobbiest who thinks he knows what he's talking about based on very limited experience. Again, I'll wait on your expertise.
 
#42
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

I have owned a few different brands of AR's over the years. Non really got me excited until I bought my first JP.
I now own three of them. They all shoot just about as well as any of the high end bolt guns I own/have owned...including TRG-22, DTA SRS, Remmy 5R,etc.

Below are some pics of my JP's and some groups using factory NON-match (Federal 40gr Nosler Varmint) ammo. ALl shot from the prone at 100 yards.

The features, fit and finish, and over all quality is all top shelf IMHO.

Take care,Stan













 
#43
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK GARANDMAN,

How do you explain that all six of the bushies we got were lemons straight from the factory? </div></div>

How do you explain I've almost NEVER seen a factory Bushy / DPMS NOT run right out of the box? I'm talking WAY more than 6, here.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
By the way - what is your background in this field? I've told you mine. I'd like to know if you actually have experience, or just are a hobbiest who thinks he knows what he's talking about based on very limited experience. Again, I'll wait on your expertise. </div></div>

Your experience is irrelevant to me.

My experience is my own two eyes. There's NOTHING you can ever say to substitute your opinion for my experience.

How do I know you are not just a troll, posting out his butt hole, trying to sound all impressive, but really a pimple faced 14 year old brat living in his parents basement just trying to stir up crap?

Spare me the one-upmanship, bigger johnson contest.

My experience will ALWAYS drive my opinion. Your experience is yours, but is largely irrelevant to me, when it is COMPELTELY contradictory to what my own 2 eyes have seen.
 
#44
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

OK - Garandman. You're clearly just ignoring my questions. Good work. You're saying you would trust your life to either of the two rifles, and someone might buy them thinking you know what you're talking about. You also assume that because you've never seen a problem, they must not exist.

I hope people know better than to listen to someone like you. I hope your ego doesn't get someone else killed. By the way - I used to be like you in that I thought they were just as good. Expereince has taught me different. Where I differe from you is that I was willing to listen to the experience of others, and went out and expanded my knowledge base. I'm still doing so, and still seek to learn.

You clearly know everything there is to know about the subject, so I will not seek to sway you any further. Good luck. I'll go back to my dad's basement.
 
#45
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">blah blah blah </div></div>

I decided to not address your post directly, cuz its full of misstatements, erroneous claims, false characterizations about what I've said, strained logic and just plain old goofy crap. Like "people may get killed..." That was pretty funny, really...


The simple reality is.....Bushmaster and DPMS make fine rifles that I would trust my life to.

As would HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of other Bushy / DPMS owners. Perhaps millions.

On the other side of the discussion.... there's you. You think they are garbage. You think MILLIONS of people should reject their first hand experience for your opinion.

I don't see a good reason for that.

Nuff said.



 
#46
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

Bottom line is that there are specific features that you look for in a quality AR - such as proper gas key staking for one- "H" marked buffer 2 - "m4" feed cuts 3 - and others that the Bushies and DPMS and Olympic just dont have. Also these companies dont properly test their bolts and barrels for structural problems. That being said I have a Frankengun that has none of those features that runs fine. Would I trust it - I mean really really trust it? NO.

And yes I am just a pimply faced wannabe.

By the way Steve- how long you been shooting now??? Ever heard of marking numbers on your mags and ditching the proven bad ones?

Is this remedial gun-nut or what???
smile.gif
 
#47
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

I have a bunch of ARs, a MSAR and a Daewoo. I used to have an AR-180B and have used several other styles. For accuracy the top spot goes to the AR15 style in general though specific rifles may deviate from that assessment. Reliability is harder to rank since there are a lot of factors involved. I would be hard pressed to tell you one of them is more reliable than another when: 1. maintained properly, 2. fed quality ammo, 3. from quality magazines.

Other observations:
All of my personal ARs have been very reliable (I have built all of them using parts from Bushmaster, Stag, RRA, GTS, BCM and other quality manufacturers). I use good ammo and quality magazines.
My MSAR has been reliable and acceptably accurate in a relatively small amount of time I have used it. It is a bit different and frankly I have it as more of a novelty than a serious use gun, not that it wouldn't work if necessary.
My AR-180B was reliable and accurate when I had it but had a cheap feel that I just didn't trust. Never gave me any trouble though.
My Daewoo K2 is very reliable and shoots very well. Recoil seems slightly more than my ARs but that may just be a different feel.
The FN PS2000 doesn't feel right to me but I have little experience with it.
The Sig 556 feels pretty good to me and the trigger is nice. It is front heavy and the stock sights on most versions suck. I might end up buying one with the new style stock eventually.

I would definately invest in some quality mags before giving up on your Armalite. You might also have someone who knows ARs look it over and see if there is a minor issue that can be corrected (like a gas system leak or alignment issue). Armalite makes good guns. Very few, if any, of the newer stuff have the excellent handling characteristics of the AR design.
 
#48
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

Oh yeah, as far as the DPMS/Bushy sidebar: WTF? Neither are complete garbage nor top tier.

Bushy makes solid guns but seems to let a few lemons through. I have one as my issued duty gun and now that I've broken it in I trust it. I would test a Bushy more extensively than some other top tier brands before I am comfortable with it though.

DPMS makes some very accurate guns and I would consider some of their models for a precision role. I would look elsewhere for a hard use carbine that is going to see a high round count.
 
#49
Re: Rate these 223 semiauto's

My Bushy has been excellent but there are many lemons out there. To the top tier, I would also add Bravo Company, LaRue, Sabre Defense, and the Daniel Defense M4.

On the Sig 556, I have one with many rounds through it. Never a malfunction but it is a little heavy and has some ergo problems. The balance does allow fast follow-up shots.
 
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