Rifle Scopes Razor 1-10 vs ATACR 1-8, 1X Reticle Usability Without Illumination

[SDC]

Thread title pretty much sums up the question, but here's a little background as to why I'm asking.

I've got a "general purpose" 16 inch build that currently has a Gen II-E with a JM-1 BDC reticle in a Badger 1.70 mount. So far it's been a great setup for me with 62gr fmj reloads, but I'm thinking about re-glassing the rifle to stretch things out a bit with 77smk or 73eld reloads (still working up the load) while still keeping it as "general purpose" as possible (i.e. not trying to make it an SPR; I've got another rifle for that).

I like either of the offered MRAD reticles for holding at distance, but I'm wondering if either of them work at all without the illumination turned on at 1X. I realize being FFP reticles they aren't exactly designed for this, and neither of them will be as "contrasty" as the 1-6 I'm currently used to, but can they work in a pinch?

Also, I should add I'm not too interested in running an offset dot as this seems to negate the need for an LPVO in the first place (unless you're running NV, which I'm not). Just a personal preference.

Thanks!

 

[nickw]

I’ll preface this with I have 56yr old eyes and I’ve always run 1-6x 2FP LPVOs. The Vortex Razor and Trijicon TR25 are my favorite. I put a Craddock/Bartlein upper on an AR and wanted more magnification and the ability to hold over at any magnification so I decided a FFP LPVO was a good option.

I bought a ATACR 1-8 and returned it because the reticle was unusable for me at 1x without ill. I also didn’t like the FOV. Really liked the reticle at 6-8x. Glass was very clear and image was flat at 1x. I checked out a Vortex Razor 1-10 at Cabelas and although the FOV was much better, the 1x reticle was worse than the ATACR. It also had a fish eye effect at 1x. I also bought a EoTech 1-10 and thought the reticle at 1x was better (I could faintly see the reticle) than both the ATACR and Razor, but not well enough to use it effectively without illumination. FOV was great, glass was nice and it had a good 10x reticle. Illumination sucked compared to NF and Vortex. I returned it as well.

I don’t think there is currently a usable FFP 1x reticle on the market. I came to the conclusion I’d have to run an offset red dot if I was going to run a 1-10x FFP and if I’m going to do that I may as well run an MPVO. I’m currently waiting to see what is released at shot show to see if anything new is worth looking at before buying a current production MPVO.

Hope this helps.

 

[SDC]

I’ll preface this with I have 56yr old eyes and I’ve always run 1-6x 2FP LPVOs. The Vortex Razor and Trijicon TR25 are my favorite. I put a Craddock/Bartlein upper on an AR and wanted more magnification and the ability to hold over at any magnification so I decided a FFP LPVO was a good option.

I bought a ATACR 1-8 and returned it because the reticle was unusable for me at 1x without ill. I also didn’t like the FOV. Really liked the reticle at 6-8x. Glass was very clear and image was flat at 1x. I checked out a Vortex Razor 1-10 at Cabelas and although the FOV was much better, the 1x reticle was worse than the ATACR. It also had a fish eye effect at 1x. I also bought a EoTech 1-10 and thought the reticle at 1x was better (I could faintly see the reticle) than both the ATACR and Razor, but not well enough to use it effectively without illumination. FOV was great, glass was nice and it had a good 10x reticle. Illumination sucked compared to NF and Vortex. I returned it as well.

I don’t think there is currently a usable FFP 1x reticle on the market. I came to the conclusion I’d have to run an offset red dot if I was going to run a 1-10x FFP and if I’m going to do that I may as well run an MPVO. I’m currently waiting to see what is released at shot show to see if anything new is worth looking at before buying a current production MPVO.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the input. This is kinda what I expected from my very limited time handling the ATACR and Razor at a store when I was on vacation (nobody carries optics in this class anywhere near where I'm at, unfortunately).

I'm also in the same boat waiting to see if anything else drops at SHOT this year before pulling the trigger on an ATACR 4-16x42 for my 18 inch SPR build (which currently has a Strike Eagle 3-18x44 on it).

I was just hoping that, for the same or similar weight, I'd be able to move up to a 34mm LPVO on the 16 inch gun and gain some long range capability without sacrificing too much up close. It really does seem like there's a strong case to be made for SFP LPVO's currently.

 

[nickw]

Yes, agree. I didn‘t mention it, but optic weight is a consideration as jumping to the ATACR 4-16 puts me at a 30oz optic. I’m also putting this on a 16” upper so trying to keep weight down. The Leupold Mk5 2-10 and 3-18 and the new Mk4 line in same mag ranges are considerations. Will see if anything else pops up. Good luck.

 

[carbonbased]

I checked out a Vortex Razor 1-10 at Cabelas and although the FOV was much better, the 1x reticle was worse than the ATACR. It also had a fish eye effect at 1x.

You might have had the diopter not set quite right on that Razor 1-10. Check out this post by @LRRPF52

Rifle Scopes - Vortex AMG 1-10 LPVO

I dont think this will do very well at all. Think about nx8 1-8. What is the first thing lpvo enjoyers talk about? Now attach it to a lesser reptutation company, almost double the price…. Anyone with right mind wouldn’t but this at the price point it is proposed. It is a much better scope than...

www.snipershide.com

 

[SDC]

You might have had the diopter not set quite right on that Razor 1-10. Check out this post by @LRRPF52

Rifle Scopes - Vortex AMG 1-10 LPVO

I dont think this will do very well at all. Think about nx8 1-8. What is the first thing lpvo enjoyers talk about? Now attach it to a lesser reptutation company, almost double the price…. Anyone with right mind wouldn’t but this at the price point it is proposed. It is a much better scope than...

www.snipershide.com

Been watching that thread and I'm very curious to see what Vortex does with that scope as it pertains to the civilian market.

As for setting diopter, it's a shame that it's such a necessary but poorly understood adjustment as it likely accounts for many of the negative reviews floating around of any of these high magnification range LPVO's. That being said, my only extremely limited experience with the ATACR 1-8 in a store made me feel like I could either set the diopter for a flat 1x or for a crisp reticle at 8x, but not both. A huge caveat on this is that was just holding the scope in my hands and I had to make do with inside-the-store distances.

I may just convince myself to be OK with needing illumination at 1x and take the plunge to get some real world experience with one of these FFP LPVO's to see if it works for me.

 

[dgheriani]

Been watching that thread and I'm very curious to see what Vortex does with that scope as it pertains to the civilian market.

As for setting diopter, it's a shame that it's such a necessary but poorly understood adjustment as it likely accounts for many of the negative reviews floating around of any of these high magnification range LPVO's. That being said, my only extremely limited experience with the ATACR 1-8 in a store made me feel like I could either set the diopter for a flat 1x or for a crisp reticle at 8x, but not both. A huge caveat on this is that was just holding the scope in my hands and I had to make do with inside-the-store distances.

I may just convince myself to be OK with needing illumination at 1x and take the plunge to get some real world experience with one of these FFP LPVO's to see if it works for me.

I've gotta say I'm curious why the requirement for a usable reticle at 1x without illum? I've been using a Razor 1-10 for years and really like it. The illum is super bright and it works great at 1x and the reticle is nice at 6-10x for holdovers at distance. I'll grant that I run a red dot at 12:00 and that's mostly my go to for close stuff (and night shooting) and I've never actually tried shooting the 1-10 at 1x without the illum.

 

[VargmatII]

Since I gave up long range shooting, I have switched a lot of gear and got myself a Vortex Razor G3 1-10x. I am 41 with glasses and astigmatism in my right eye. So not new to shooting/hunting, but new to LPVO. So take it for what it is.

With a proper set up diopter the image is flat as can be. This should not be an issue.
The reticle at 1x without illumination could be described as 3 floating prongs, I can barely make out the thin middle lines but just barely. The prongs however does work if the target has a bright-ish background, if its something in a shadowy area or in shrubs, I would not be able to use it.

But on the other hand, with the illumination turned on, the Razor G3 performas as a really good red-dot sight at 1x, with less flaring for me than I have come to expect from Aimpoint and the likes.

 

[Hoody2shoes]

What do you mean 'useable without illumination?' The atacr is really easy to bracket with at 1x.... are you talking about seeing the holds? No ffp 1-8 on the planet is going to have useable holds on both 1 and 8

 

[nickw]

You might have had the diopter not set quite right on that Razor 1-10. Check out this post by @LRRPF52

Rifle Scopes - Vortex AMG 1-10 LPVO

I dont think this will do very well at all. Think about nx8 1-8. What is the first thing lpvo enjoyers talk about? Now attach it to a lesser reptutation company, almost double the price…. Anyone with right mind wouldn’t but this at the price point it is proposed. It is a much better scope than...

www.snipershide.com

I appreciate the feedback. I did adjust the diopter. Had to as my 56 yr old eyes require a prescription and I have an astigmatism. I’m very sensitive to diopter adj. Have to do this with my LR optics as well. Still couldn’t see the center of the reticle (center, can see the bold stadia) on the Vortex after adj. the diopter. Many suggest bracketing the target with the bold stadia at the 3, 6, 9 o’clock but don’t care for that technique. YMMV.

 

[Makinchips208]

I’ll preface this with I have 56yr old eyes……..

I don’t think there is currently a usable FFP 1x reticle on the market. ……

There are many reticles that are usable at 1x without illumination. The atacr 1-8 is one of them. Unfortunately YOUR eyes don’t play well with them. But I know many that it works just fine.

Bracketing on 1x works great.

 

[JDB55]

I ran into the same issues, my brother had a 1-10 Razor and I didn't think it would be great without illumination, was fairly easy to get lost when looking into something like a wood line quickly. Others looked really similar or had the donut of death that looked way to large on 1x to be useful. I personally think the quickest lpvo reticle without illumination is going to be a full cross hair, that is why I went with the Primary arms PLxC 1-8 which is the only FFP I've seen to integrate a full cross hair edge to edge. Really really happy with it, especially the meters bdc version that has the bigger horseshoe in the center to bracket targets.

 

[Evolution 9]

Keep the Vortex 1-6.

ATACR 1-8 would be second.

With or without illumination these would be my choices in that order for 1x performance.

1-10 Razor didn’t “work” for me with its semi transparent reticle. I found precision shooting difficult until the range was far enough out to get into the tree reticle which is excellent. Most real world shots for hunting/fighting happen close enough that you aren’t in the hold over points so I wasn’t willing to sacrifice precision for the most likely shots. I’ve spoken to numerous 1-10 users with similar experiences and a few who weren’t affected

 

[TheHorta]

S&B Short Dot CC 1-8x is great at 1x. Best of breed, IMO.

I have the 1-8x ATACR DMx, VO 1-10x MRAD, SB 1-8x, March 1-10x Shorty, Sig Tango6 1-6x.

SB FTW!

 

[nickw]

There are many reticles that are usable at 1x without illumination. The atacr 1-8 is one of them. Unfortunately YOUR eyes don’t play well with them. But I know many that it works just fine.

Bracketing on 1x works great.

Bracketing is def an option but doesn’t work for me. Glad it works for you. Everyone’s eyes are different.

 

[SDC]

I've gotta say I'm curious why the requirement for a usable reticle at 1x without illum? I've been using a Razor 1-10 for years and really like it. The illum is super bright and it works great at 1x and the reticle is nice at 6-10x for holdovers at distance. I'll grant that I run a red dot at 12:00 and that's mostly my go to for close stuff (and night shooting) and I've never actually tried shooting the 1-10 at 1x without the illum.

I wouldn't say I have a requirement for 1x usability without illumination. I totally understand these FFP LPVO reticles are designed to be used with illumination, I was just curious if either of them can be used without it.

After all the research I've done on LPVO's, I sorta narrowed my search down to the Razor 1-10 and the ATACR 1-8, so now I'm just trying to understand the differences to make an informed purchasing decision.

As with anything in this hobby, mission should dictate equipment, but as a simple civilian, I don't have a perfectly defined mission. I'm going for a general purpose build with a bias toward longer range (I have a local range with steel out to 900 yards and spend most of my time there shooting precision rifle), hence the interest in an MRAD FFP tree reticle with higher BC bullets.

 

[SDC]

What do you mean 'useable without illumination?' The atacr is really easy to bracket with at 1x.... are you talking about seeing the holds? No ffp 1-8 on the planet is going to have useable holds on both 1 and 8

Good question. By "usable" I mean able to make quick shots within 50 yards or so on 1x. I'm definitely not thinking I'd be able to use any holds (nor would I want to at 1x, because by the time I'd be holding, I'd want magnification to see what I'm shooting at).

 

[VargmatII]

I wouldn't say I have a requirement for 1x usability without illumination. I totally understand these FFP LPVO reticles are designed to be used with illumination, I was just curious if either of them can be used without it.

After all the research I've done on LPVO's, I sorta narrowed my search down to the Razor 1-10 and the ATACR 1-8, so now I'm just trying to understand the differences to make an informed purchasing decision.

As with anything in this hobby, mission should dictate equipment, but as a simple civilian, I don't have a perfectly defined mission. I'm going for a general purpose build with a bias toward longer range (I have a local range with steel out to 900 yards and spend most of my time there shooting precision rifle), hence the interest in an MRAD FFP tree reticle with higher BC bullets.

I was pretty much in the same situation a few months back. I was looking at the ATACR 1-8x and Razor 1-10x and a few others including the new Delta 1-10x and EoTech 1-10x too. But ruled them off one at the time, for one reason or the other.
It was going on my AR with what I guess has kind of an SPR/Recce type build, and it spends 95% of its time on 300 meter ranges which is the standard around here.

Without getting into minute details on the other scopes, I picked the Razor since, it had 1-10x, a decent to good reticle and a pretty solid reputation.
One could argue stuff like, You can always turn back on the magnification on the Razor, to 8x or so, but you can never go up to 10x on an ATACR..
I will say though that the eyebox is a bit tight on 10x and I feel that contrast falls of a bit. But it is still very much usable. At 1x it is the best red-dot type optic I have ever had. Below is my current setup. Will be getting another suppressor in the future.

 

[Keith E.]

Thread title pretty much sums up the question, but here's a little background as to why I'm asking.

I've got a "general purpose" 16 inch build that currently has a Gen II-E with a JM-1 BDC reticle in a Badger 1.70 mount. So far it's been a great setup for me with 62gr fmj reloads, but I'm thinking about re-glassing the rifle to stretch things out a bit with 77smk or 73eld reloads (still working up the load) while still keeping it as "general purpose" as possible (i.e. not trying to make it an SPR; I've got another rifle for that).

I like either of the offered MRAD reticles for holding at distance, but I'm wondering if either of them work at all without the illumination turned on at 1X. I realize being FFP reticles they aren't exactly designed for this, and neither of them will be as "contrasty" as the 1-6 I'm currently used to, but can they work in a pinch?

Also, I should add I'm not too interested in running an offset dot as this seems to negate the need for an LPVO in the first place (unless you're running NV, which I'm not). Just a personal preference.

Thanks!

SDC,

The NF DMx reticle is quite capable at 1× without Illumination.

YMMV,
Keith

 

[Burdy]

The Vudu 1-10 is the most usable FFP on 1x without illumination. I never even put a battery in mine.

 

[Burdy]

S&B Short Dot CC 1-8x is great at 1x. Best of breed, IMO.

I have the 1-8x ATACR DMx, VO 1-10x MRAD, SB 1-8x, March 1-10x Shorty, Sig Tango6 1-6x.

SB FTW!

Huh? I have the S&B short dot, love it, but 1x without illumination is virtually non existent.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

I’ll preface this with I have 56yr old eyes and I’ve always run 1-6x 2FP LPVOs. The Vortex Razor and Trijicon TR25 are my favorite. I put a Craddock/Bartlein upper on an AR and wanted more magnification and the ability to hold over at any magnification so I decided a FFP LPVO was a good option.

I bought a ATACR 1-8 and returned it because the reticle was unusable for me at 1x without ill. I also didn’t like the FOV. Really liked the reticle at 6-8x. Glass was very clear and image was flat at 1x. I checked out a Vortex Razor 1-10 at Cabelas and although the FOV was much better, the 1x reticle was worse than the ATACR. It also had a fish eye effect at 1x. I also bought a EoTech 1-10 and thought the reticle at 1x was better (I could faintly see the reticle) than both the ATACR and Razor, but not well enough to use it effectively without illumination. FOV was great, glass was nice and it had a good 10x reticle. Illumination sucked compared to NF and Vortex. I returned it as well.

I don’t think there is currently a usable FFP 1x reticle on the market. I came to the conclusion I’d have to run an offset red dot if I was going to run a 1-10x FFP and if I’m going to do that I may as well run an MPVO. I’m currently waiting to see what is released at shot show to see if anything new is worth looking at before buying a current production MPVO.

Hope

 

[TacticalPlinker]

IMO - G3 - Not "unusable" @ 1x , but certainly not "fast" without illumination. That being said I feel more comfortable running the RMR alongside it. 35 degree offset from T-Rex Arms

 

[Burdy]

Good Lord, you guys made me get my camera out. Vudu 1-10, no illumination at 1x (you can click the image for full res):

 

[TheOE800]

Huh? I have the S&B short dot, love it, but 1x without illumination is virtually non existent.

Yeah, reticle is useless without illumination in CC mode.

 

[TheHorta]

Huh? I have the S&B short dot, love it, but 1x without illumination is virtually non existent.

Without illumination? What idiot wouldn’t use illumination? You’d have to be some kinda stoopid.

 

[Burdy]

Without illumination? What idiot wouldn’t use illumination? You’d have to be some kinda stoopid.


View attachment 8324739

He is asking in the title of this thread for no illumination.

 

[Bcamos]

Good Lord, you guys made me get my camera out. Vudu 1-10, no illumination at 1x (you can click the image for full res):

Whoa I like that.

 

[Burdy]

Whoa I like that.

I could have sent you that one instead! Ha

 

[Bcamos]

I could have sent you that one instead! Ha

I'm sure I'd be immediately working the street corner to pick one up for myself after using it

 

[Hoody2shoes]

My God that vudu ring of death is massive. Like 72ish mrads in diameter. I have no idea what eotech was thinking with making it that obscenely large. Its literally 3x the size (68 moa) of the holographic sights ring of death which is intelligently designed.

 

[Burdy]

My God that vudu ring of death is massive. Like 72ish mrads in diameter. I have no idea what eotech was thinking with making it that obscenely large. Its literally 3x the size (68 moa) of the holographic sights ring of death which is intelligently designed.

It has to be large enough to completely fade from view at higher magnification or else it would be extremely distracting at the upper end. It serves it's purpose at 1x as your eye still find the center. At about 5.25x the center ring is at the edge, essential reducing FOV, by 6x, its gone. If the ring were any smaller you would be dealing a very large annoying ring from 6-10x. This way its out of the way by 6x and your center MIL tree is clearly visible.

 

[paulo_santos]

If you watch the video below of a 2-gun competition, check out stage 3 where I forgot to turn on the illumination. I had no issues. This is the FC-DMx reticle.