RCBS Chargemaster vs Autotrickler V3

[Mr. Wolf]

Interesting find on YT.
According to 4Gunguy, it took ~25 sec per loaded round when using Autotrickler V3 and ~35 sec per loaded round when using RCBS Chargemaster Lite (no surprises to me in the faster throw).

He goes on to show a comparison of the actual thrown weight for 10 throws with the Autotrickler vs. the Chargemaster (the Autotrickler was more precise, no surprises here).

Interestingly, he then ran the loaded rounds through the chrono and found the average velocity to be roughly equal and slight advantage to the Autotrickler for lower SD and ES (no surprises here as more precise powder charge should equal a tighter measure of variance (SD) and range (ES)).

Now for the "so what part" that I found interesting. He plotted the high and low speeds for the two batches out to 1000 yds and it did not show an appreciable difference (0.82" difference from ballistics tables for elevation differences at 1000 yds when comparing the two ESs).



For PRS shooter and hunters, besides saving time with the Autotrickler, is there an appreciable advantage?
I realize that there is not enough rounds to show a statistical difference, but it is definitely an interesting trend.

I like this guy's analytical and practical way of comparing outcomes that matter.

What say you? Have you had experience with both?
Thanks in advance.

Side bar and up to you on how far you want to substitute variables (hits on steel = time x money, money = Autotrickler, etc )

 

[Mauser48]

I paid $280 for my chargemaster link. I've put the charges on other scales and it's pretty accurate for what it is. For me at this point the over 1k I'm saving is better spent on more loading supplies to go out and shoot. Sometimes I get too caught up reading on all the new gear when in reality I need to just go shoot more. No doubt the autotricklers and supertricklers are better but I honestly think these chargemasters are plenty good for most shooters.

 

[Bacarrat]

I doubled the speed of my Chargemaster by buying a second one. With both of them reprogrammed, I can finish one drop and seating and the second one will be ready.

 

[ACard]

I have both and merely keep the rcbs as an emergency backup if my AT goes down. That said for me the most valuable commodity for reloading is my time. The AT will throw an 84 gn charge of H1000 in 8-9 seconds and it will be within 0.02 gns. The rcbs took about 22-25 secs and frequently was longer and far less accurate. My free time to chase my hobbies is scarce enough that the AT was an absolute worthwhile investment for me. YMMV

 

[MarkyMark007]

He plotted the high and low speeds for the two batches out to 1000 yds and it did not show an appreciable difference (0.82" difference from ballistics tables for elevation differences at 1000 yds when comparing the two ESs).

you can't just put those numbers in calculator and calculate the difference. those low and high impacting bullets fly at different angle, have different BC, shooter made different error... and at the end, they have different velocity. so a lot of errors, which can also terminate itself.

like just you can't sum up error1 and error2 to have total error.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

you can't just put those numbers in calculator and calculate the difference. those low and high impacting bullets fly at different angle, have different BC, shooter made different error... and at the end, they have different velocity. so a lot of errors, which can also terminate itself.

like just you can't sum up error1 and error2 to have total error.

True, the vertical difference is all extrapolated data from a ballistics table. And valid points on timesaving. Ideally a group comparison at 1000yards would yield real world results, but then the atmospherics will play a much greater role than 1 kernel difference in charge weight for H4350.

Didn’t Erik Cortina make 1000 yard F Class High Master reloading with a Chargemaster before he upgraded to a .02 grain scale (precursor to the Autotrickler)? Forward to 15:40 for his main points:



Not suggesting that the Autotrickler or other more precise powder measure instruments are inferior to the Chargemaster. Just wondering if PRS shooters and hunters would be able to discern a difference if timesaving was not a factor.

YMMV, happy shooting.

 

[Rider47]

The Chargemaster (1500) can be easily modified in three ways that significantly improve its precision - to almost the level of the Autotrickler. 1) cover up about 80% of the intake area of the dispensing tube using tape. 2) Insert a cylinder with a reduced hole diameter into the output side of the dispensing tube. 3) Reprogram the unit (specifically the time spent on the final speed by adjusting the differential between the read weight and target weight) to SLOW DOWN the unit. Yes - this slows down the delivery a bit, but each of the individual throws can be captured in glass vials and stored for later loading. I also weigh each individual vial of powder using a laboratory balance (Mettler) and do a final adjustment - to the granule of powder. I have thrown and weighed literally thousands of powder charges, and also compared the modified Chargemaster 1500 to throws from an Autotrickler and they are almost/virtually identical in their accuracy and precision. Additionally, the best throws from the Autotrickler were made when the autozeroing function was disabled. (This function basically hides scale drift.) When the autozeroing function was enabled, the modified 1500 throws were more precise. I have not watched Eric's video yet, but assume he details the same mods.

Factory Outlet Orifice

Modified Outlet Orifice

Modified Dispensing Tube Inlet

Modified Dispensing Tube Inserts
(two on right homemade, left unit purchased online)

Thrown Charges in Glass Vials - 10/crayon box

Stacks of Pre-weighed Boxes of Powder Vials

The data I saw from the Autotrickler shows it to be a very precise powder measure, however, for all intents and purposes excepting throw speed, a modifed Chargemaster is fully capable of virtually the same precision performance, at a fraction of the cost. A buddy just picked up a used 1500 for $150 and we did these three modifications and tested his unit. It then threw charges at +/- 2 granules of Varget. (This is a range of about .07 grain, less than a tenth of a grain. The Autotrickler I tested did NOT, in any mode, throw to a range of .02 grain, which is a range of .0013grams, or about the weigh of a single granule of Varget which averages about .0012grams.)

Note I do not have data on whether of not my OCD final manual adjustment of charges from +/- 2 granules to within one granule of powder make a ballistically detectable/significant difference, but it makes a heck of a psychological difference in competition.

 

[Rider47]

Okay - just watched Eric's video. I have some issues with his technique that are enough that if he worked in a crime lab, a bunch of bad guys would get off. His Sartorius (a very good scale) is set on grains not grams which indicates less sensitivity (.005grains = .0003grams), he does not close the door of the scale when weighing (when you are weighing to .0003grams, this is a MUST), he does not re-tare the Sartorius for drift until 16 minutes in when significant drift is clearly visible (153.695 to 153.670 grains = difference of about .0016grams). In addition, he does not re-tare the Chargemaster until minute 17 when significant drift is also visible. His method of weighing one granule of powder is also seriously flawed. But hey - I would agree with his overall conclusions that if you go SLOWER with the Chargemaster, it can be made significantly more precise. He does it using a motorized manual trickler, but the Chargemaster is capable of being modified to do just that.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Just about anyone serious in precision shooting is using an AT, ST or Prometheus. The RCBS is junk in comparison and most of us have gone through a bunch of them. They are cheap Chinese produced unreliable throwers and scales. You can't trust what the scales read and they drift like crazy.

Right now a AT3 with ingenuity trickler will throw an accurate charge to .04 grains in less than 10 seconds. My ST will do the same with about a 90% success rate in about 12 seconds. Run 2 or 3 and you never have to stop dumping powder.

 

[MarkyMark007]

The Chargemaster (1500) can be easily modified in three ways that significantly improve its precision - to almost the level of the Autotrickler. 1) cover up about 80% of the intake area of the dispensing tube using tape. 2) Insert a cylinder with a reduced hole diameter into the output side of the dispensing tube. 3) Reprogram the unit (specifically the time spent on the final speed by adjusting the differential between the read weight and target weight) to SLOW DOWN the unit. Yes - this slows down the delivery a bit, but each of the individual throws can be captured in glass vials and stored for later loading. I also weigh each individual vial of powder using a laboratory balance (Mettler) and do a final adjustment - to the granule of powder. I have thrown and weighed literally thousands of powder charges, and also compared the modified Chargemaster 1500 to throws from an Autotrickler and they are almost/virtually identical in their accuracy and precision. Additionally, the best throws from the Autotrickler were made when the autozeroing function was disabled. (This function basically hides scale drift.) When the autozeroing function was enabled, the modified 1500 throws were more precise. I have not watched Eric's video yet, but assume he details the same mods.

Factory Outlet Orifice

Modified Outlet Orifice

Modified Dispensing Tube Inlet

Modified Dispensing Tube Inserts
(two on right homemade, left unit purchased online)

Thrown Charges in Glass Vials - 10/crayon box

Stacks of Pre-weighed Boxes of Powder Vials

The data I saw from the Autotrickler shows it to be a very precise powder measure, however, for all intents and purposes excepting throw speed, a modifed Chargemaster is fully capable of virtually the same precision performance, at a fraction of the cost. A buddy just picked up a used 1500 for $150 and we did these three modifications and tested his unit. It then threw charges at +/- 2 granules of Varget. (This is a range of about .07 grain, less than a tenth of a grain. The Autotrickler I tested did NOT, in any mode, throw to a range of .02 grain, which is a range of .0013grams, or about the weigh of a single granule of Varget which averages about .0012grams.)

Note I do not have data on whether of not my OCD final manual adjustment of charges from +/- 2 granules to within one granule of powder make a ballistically detectable/significant difference, but it makes a heck of a psychological difference in competition.

thank you for your research. with what scale did you check those Chargemaster powder throws?

But like you write, Chargemaster is by default 0.1gr accurate. cant be any way around. so your throws are at least 0.1gr apart. so +/-2 or 3 kernels of powder. 0.1gr scale cant do better.

but A&D FX120i can measure +/-1 kernel of powder.

so everybody must choose what is important to him;
200$ for difference of 5 kernels of powder in best way,
or 1200$ for difference of 1 kernel in best way...