RCBS Gold medal dies. Full length or bushing?

[Jmccracken1214]

Wanting to upgrade my press and my hornady dies to some better stuff, I currently just bump the shoulder back 2 thou... so I guess im just neck sizing at this point?

I'd want the bushing dies, correct?

 

[FLIGHT762]

If you don't know the answer to your "So I guess I'm neck sizing at this point"? question, You should find out if you are or you're not and then go from there. Why do you think you need to "upgrade"?

 

[Huskydriver]

Wanting to upgrade my press and my hornady dies to some better stuff, I currently just bump the shoulder back 2 thou... so I guess im just neck sizing at this point?

I'd want the bushing dies, correct?

No...your FL sizing but only bumping the shoulder back provided your not using a neck only die already.

Do you measure run out of your current loading process?

 

[Jmccracken1214]

No...your FL sizing but only bumping the shoulder back provided your not using a neck only die already.

Do you measure run out of your current loading process?

I’m just using the hornady custom dies now. I do not measure.
While sizing, it always feels inconsistent, the expander ball feels like it’s hanging inside the necks sometime, some brass is harder to size than others. With Lapua and starline.
My seating die doesn’t consistently seat, I push the round up and feel a lot of resistance at times, drop it down and try again and it’ll seat easy but the first try where it didn’t, leaves a ring on the bullet

 

[MK20]

I would vote for an annealer vs new dies. That fixed some of those problems for me.

You can test this theory first with a simple plumbers torch and drill socket. Put case in socket and spin in drill as you apply flame. For my 308 Lake city brass it takes about 5 secs each with propane. Mapp gas will be hotter. Your brass may be different. If you start to see orange in the flame you are doing it too long and the zinc in your brass is burning off.

Do a few of your brass pieces and then load them. See if this fixes it.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

I would vote for an annealer vs new dies. That fixed some of those problems for me.

You can test this theory first with a simple plumbers torch and drill socket. Put case in socket and spin in drill as you apply flame. For my 308 Lake city brass it takes about 5 secs each with propane. Mapp gas will be hotter. Your brass may be different. If you start to see orange in the flame you are doing it too long and the zinc in your brass is burning off.

Do a few of your brass pieces and then load them. See if this fixes it.

Thanks for the reply but I’ve got a annealeez that I use after every firing.
After the small aggravating things with these dies, I’m looking to just drop some coin on good ones. Considering my gear, guns, reloading supplies, my dies and press (hornady single stage) are the things that are lower end on the quality scale, IMO

 

[MK20]

Belay my last then.

Check your press too. I have had 2 lees crack in the linkage and become inconsistent. Idk if Hornady would be the same. Lee is using lots of sintered parts. They break.

RCBS fixed that.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Belay my last then.

Check your press too. I have had 2 lees crack in the linkage and become inconsistent. Idk if Hornady would be the same. Lee is using lots of sintered parts. They break.

RCBS fixed that.

Press seems fine. It makes accurate ammo, I’m just ready to step up to something a little nicer.
I’m looking to slowly upgrading my dies to the rcbs matchmasters/gold medal and upgrading my press to either rcbs summit or the MEC

 

[MK20]

You might want to give Redding Match dies a look as well. I have some and really like them.

I would also wait if you could until Black Friday and then just upgrade everything at once (press, dies, components you need). It will probably save you a bunch.

 

[Dai Bando]

You’re running into neck tension issues because your annealing technique is inconsistent and the different feel on sizing points that way as well.

The expander ball isn’t helping either.

Bushing full length die (no expander ball) to size necks as little as possible while bumping shoulders and an expander mandrel to open them up is a great way to roll.

I like to dry lube necks before seating to prevent cold weld which also makes bullet seating more consistent.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

You’re running into neck tension issues because your annealing technique is inconsistent and the different feel on sizing points that way as well.

The expander ball isn’t helping either.

Bushing full length die (no expander ball) to size necks as little as possible while bumping shoulders and an expander mandrel to open them up is a great way to roll.

I like to dry lube necks before seating to prevent cold weld which also makes bullet seating more consistent.

I’m not sure how I’m messing up the annealing. They all roll on the wheels smooth and are in the flame 5-6 seconds. Never getting orange or red

 

[Backcountryguy]

Your Lapua and Starline brass will almost surely require different lengths of time in the flame while annealing...just tossing that out there in case you have them both running the same amount of time.

I’d personally just pull your decapping rod and expander ball out of your Hornady dies...and then buy a Sinclair Mandrel die and then buy whatever size mandrel you want for however much neck tension you want.

Using my MEC Marksman press...Hornady Custom grade dies with the decap rod and expander balls removed....and a Sinclair mandrel die for setting neck tension...Hornady Custom grade seating die with the proper seating stem and the micrometer on top...

For my 6.5 creedmoor, I average 0.001” of less of runout at the bullet....For 223, I average 0.002” or less of runout, occasionally getting some up around 0.003” runout. The 6.5 creedmoor seats consistently because the bullet does not touch powder, but the 223 seats inconsistent length due to crushing powder.

I believe the difference in runout with the 223 is because it is a compressed load, where I’m crushing Varget while seating the bullets.

I did just order a Redding Type S Bushing die for the 223 to test that theory... but it’s going to be months before I need to size my brass again.

 

[strat81]

If I was buying a new press today, I'd look at the info presented in this article:
14 press shootout.

The biggest surprises to me were how well the RCBS Rockchucker supreme did in many categories and how high sizing force was for the newer Hornady Iron Press.

When I picked new dies a month ago, I found these videos to be helpful:







They're for 6.5cm, but much of the info will apply to other calibers.

FWIW, I chose Forster dies, the regular FL sizer (not bushing) and benchrest seater. I remove the expander ball and use a Sinclair mandrel to expand the case mouths.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Press seems fine. It makes accurate ammo, I’m just ready to step up to something a little nicer.
I’m looking to slowly upgrading my dies to the rcbs matchmasters/gold medal and upgrading my press to either rcbs summit or the MEC

Guys are giving you good info here. I just have to say, if you plan upgrading your dies, there are a lot of dies higher quality for maybe less money than Gold Medal dies.. I am not familiar with the match master set, but they look the same. The sizing die may be darn good, the seater leaves a lot to be desired, all those dies are one size, length wise, they just utilize different seating stems. So if you are seating 223 rds, or any other short rd, that stem hangs down a half mile, nothing good can come from it.
It was a piss poor design in the 80's when the dies were labeled competition dies, they just cheapened them up with a black coating and no longer shipped them in a wood box.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Guys are giving you good info here. I just have to say, if you plan upgrading your dies, there are a lot of dies higher quality for maybe less money than Gold Medal dies.. I am not familiar with the match master set, but they look the same. The sizing die may be darn good, the seater leaves a lot to be desired, all those dies are one size, length wise, they just utilize different seating stems. So if you are seating 223 rds, or any other short rd, that stem hangs down a half mile, nothing good can come from it.
It was a piss poor design in the 80's when the dies were labeled competition dies, they just cheapened them up with a black coating and no longer shipped them in a wood box.

The match masters allow you to adjust the height of that seating stem

 

[strat81]

I should mention I have some buyer's remorse about the Forster Benchrest Seating Die. I should have got their micrometer seater instead.

My understanding is that they're the same internally, only the "adjustment knob" is different, with the micrometer seater allowing for more accurate adjustments. (I.e., with the micrometer, you dial .010" and you're set, rather than turn an unlabeled know an 1/8" turn, measure the round, and oh, you have to give it another 1/16" turn, oops, too much, back it off 1/32" of a turn with your tongue sticking out just the right way...).

If you're a set it and forget it kind of guy, the regular seater is fine. If you'll be experimenting with different bullets and different seating depths, the quick adjustments offered by the micrometer seater are probably worth it.

Of course, the best dies in the world aren't worth a thing if the rest of your loading process isn't very good.

Are you using high-quality, consistent brass?
Are you using high-quality, consistent bullets and seating them with a stem that fits the bullet?
Are your powder charges consistent? If your scale capable of measuring them accurately?
Is your chosen powder accurate for your cartridge and suitable for the temperature ranges in which you'll be shooting?

In other words, if you're using range pick-up .223 brass, pulled surplus 55gr FMJBTs, and pull-down powder, who cares what dies you're using?

RCBS, Hornady, Redding, Forster, Wilson, and Whidden all make very good dies. I bet the difference on target between them all would be negligible if all other aspects of the reloading and shooting process were held the same. Find the dies with the features and box color that will let you shoot with confidence. If you don't have confidence in X brand, don't buy it.

 

[FLIGHT762]

Another avenue to explore is using a Lee N/O Collet die, a Redding Body die and a nice micrometer seating die. Forster or Redding.

The lee collet die squeezes & sizes the neck on a mandrel so there is no pulling an expander through the neck. The body F/L sizes the shoulder and case body, but doesn't touch the neck. The only issue is some bitch about how you have to run the cases twice, one for neck sizing and one for shoulder / body sizing. Makes very accurate ammo with low runout. I use it.

I also went with the Redding bushing die route. Makes good ammo, but the TiN bushings are about $25.00 each. I have about 5 of them.

Both methods I described, I use for the 308 Win. When I decided to make accurate ammo for the 223 Rem., I went with the Lee Collet die, Redding body die and a micrometers seater. I didn't bother with bushing dies for 223.

I like the Lee Collet die, Redding body die and micrometer seater route.

You can also stick with what you have on dies and use a mandrel like Backcountryguy suggested. The 21st Century TiN one would be good.

 

[strat81]

Another avenue to explore is using a Lee N/O Collet die, a Redding Body die and a nice micrometer seating die. Forster or Redding.

The lee collet die squeezes & sizes the neck on a mandrel so there is no pulling an expander through the neck. The body F/L sizes the shoulder and case body, but doesn't touch the neck. The only issue is some bitch about how you have to run the cases twice, one for neck sizing and one for shoulder / body sizing. Makes very accurate ammo with low runout. I use it.

Especially for those loading on a progressive or turret, that's a strong option.

(This is where where someone breaks a blood vessel at the notion of loading precision ammo on anything but a single stage press.)

 

[Milo 2.5]

The match masters allow you to adjust the height of that seating stem

The gold medal have too also, hence my one size fits all comment.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Is the mandrel just more consistent than an expander ball, even on the high end dies, the expander ball isnt almost spot on?

I would think going from the hornady dies, to the redding or rcbs dies that are 5x more money, you would not need to add an extra step by using the mandrel after sizing the brass in the sizing die

 

[Huskydriver]

When you pull an expander ball back through the neck, the brass is no longer supported by the die and the expander may or may not pull through perfectly straight so alot of us ditch the expander ball.

The expander mandrel pushes down in a free floated die that helps the brass to self center as it opens up the neck.

You can try, and alot of guys do, get away with just using a fl bushing die to size the mouth down enough and do not open the mouth back up period.

 

[Backcountryguy]

The Expander mandrel allows you to set your neck tension and whatever you want, simply by having different sized mandrels and putting in whichever one gives you the neck tension you want.

Also, pushing the expander “down” on the case gives you a lower chance of negatively affecting case concentricity compared to pulling “up” through the case mouth with an expander ball setup. There’s some info/videos of this online if you care to look it up

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Cost wise, seems cheapest to just take the expander out of my hornady like suggested earlier.
Is Sinclair the only good maker of a mandrel?

 

[Huskydriver]

I’m just using the hornady custom dies now. I do not measure.
While sizing, it always feels inconsistent, the expander ball feels like it’s hanging inside the necks sometime, some brass is harder to size than others. With Lapua and starline.
My seating die doesn’t consistently seat, I push the round up and feel a lot of resistance at times, drop it down and try again and it’ll seat easy but the first try where it didn’t, leaves a ring on the bullet

If you don't know how much run out your current process has, how will you know if the new dies helped anything? Just a thought

 

[Huskydriver]

Cost wise, seems cheapest to just take the expander out of my hornady like suggested earlier.
Is Sinclair the only good maker of a mandrel?

No, 21st century also makes awesome expanders in .005 increments

 

[strat81]

Cost wise, seems cheapest to just take the expander out of my hornady like suggested earlier.
Is Sinclair the only good maker of a mandrel?

That'd be a good place to start.

I use the Sinclair mandrel die with their neck-turning carbide mandrel. The neck turning mandrels are .002" under bullet diamater. The expander mandrels are .001" under. I wanted .002" of neck tension, so I got the neck turning mandrel.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

That'd be a good place to start.

I use the Sinclair mandrel die with their neck-turning carbide mandrel. The neck turning mandrels are .002" under bullet diamater. The expander mandrels are .001" under. I wanted .002" of neck tension, so I got the neck turning mandrel.

Just talked with a friend and he's running the hornady match dies and goes for .001" neck tension and said he noticed smaller SD's and tighter groups over the hornady custom....

How would me just buying the match grade bushing die and doing that pan out, compared to using the sinclair?

 

[Huskydriver]

Just talked with a friend and he's running the hornady match dies and goes for .001" neck tension and said he noticed smaller SD's and tighter groups over the hornady custom....

How would me just buying the match grade bushing die and doing that pan out, compared to using the sinclair?

See my post above lol

 

[Jmccracken1214]

See my post above lol

10-4
Sorry, I missed that. Between here and google, trying to understand all this more and its got my brain going nuts.

 

[Huskydriver]

10-4
Sorry, I missed that. Between here and google, trying to understand all this more and its got my brain going nuts.

Feel free to pm me and we can discuss it over the phone if that helps

 

[Backcountryguy]

Just talked with a friend and he's running the hornady match dies and goes for .001" neck tension and said he noticed smaller SD's and tighter groups over the hornady custom....

How would me just buying the match grade bushing die and doing that pan out, compared to using the sinclair?

Unless you’re gonna get into neck-turning not that well. The neck bushings size off of the exterior of the neck wall, obviously...so any variations in neck wall thickness in any portion of the neck will result in variations in neck tension on bullets.

With the Mandrel/Expander from Sinclair or 21st Century...you are sizing the inside of the case mouth, so neck tension on bullets will be the same from case to case, even if there are variations in neck wall thickness.

If you are shooting a 6.5 caliber bullet with a diameter of .264”....you just get a mandrel with a diameter of .263”...boom..there’s your 0.001” of neck tension. Or maybe a .2635” mandrel to account for 0.0005” of spring back.

I have the Sinclair body and mandrels...but wish I had the 21st Century. You can really customize your neck tension with the 21st Century setup

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Feel free to pm me and we can discuss it over the phone if that helps

I think, for money's sake, Im going to just order the match die and a bushing and go that route.

My next question..... or concern... seating these hybrids is funny at times... it wont seat it unless i back out of the die, then try again... its like its not lining up with the stem. Im using the 140eld stem... do I need to get a A-tip stem, to make seating easier, or just drill out the stem I have?

I took it out, and put it on one of the bullets, and its like it doesnt go down to the ogive, as if the tip is hitting inside the stem

 

[Huskydriver]

I think, for money's sake, Im going to just order the match die and a bushing and go that route.

My next question..... or concern... seating these hybrids is funny at times... it wont seat it unless i back out of the die, then try again... its like its not lining up with the stem. Im using the 140eld stem... do I need to get a A-tip stem, to make seating easier, or just drill out the stem I have?

I took it out, and put it on one of the bullets, and its like it doesnt go down to the ogive, as if the tip is hitting inside the stem

I have a couple match grade Hornady sets laying around in the PX fyi. ?

Yes you will need to drill and lap the seater stem but Hornady I think makes a stem specifically for vld style bullets

 

[Jmccracken1214]

I have a couple match grade Hornady sets laying around in the PX fyi. ?

Yes you will need to drill and lap the seater stem but Hornady I think makes a stem specifically for vld style bullets

Went back 15 pages in reloading, didnt see it in the PX.

Unless you’re gonna get into neck-turning not that well. The neck bushings size off of the exterior of the neck wall, obviously...so any variations in neck wall thickness in any portion of the neck will result in variations in neck tension on bullets.

With the Mandrel/Expander from Sinclair or 21st Century...you are sizing the inside of the case mouth, so neck tension on bullets will be the same from case to case, even if there are variations in neck wall thickness.

If you are shooting a 6.5 caliber bullet with a diameter of .264”....you just get a mandrel with a diameter of .263”...boom..there’s your 0.001” of neck tension. Or maybe a .2635” mandrel to account for 0.0005” of spring back.

I have the Sinclair body and mandrels...but wish I had the 21st Century. You can really customize your neck tension with the 21st Century setup

Damnit this makes more sense.... The only 6.5 mandrel on brownells, says .263, but its out of stock, but of course they have the $50 carbide one... shit!

 

[Backcountryguy]

Went back 15 pages in reloading, didnt see it in the PX.


Damnit this makes more sense.... The only 6.5 mandrel on brownells, says .263, but its out of stock, but of course they have the $50 carbide one... shit!

Go with the 21st Century setup, not the Sinclair(just my opinion) and decide how much neck tension you want, and then grab the correct mandrel that will give you that amount of tension.

 

[Backcountryguy]

Just checking...but are you positive you do not have your seating die turned down too far? I had an issue like your stating, and my problem was I had the die turned into the press too far. I had to back the seating die out so the case wasn’t hitting/jamming in the die

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Just checking...but are you positive you do not have your seating die turned down too far? I had an issue like your stating, and my problem was I had the die turned into the press too far. I had to back the seating die out so the case wasn’t hitting/jamming in the die

Yes, no cam over or anything. It’s not the case hitting, but like I said, the stem doesn’t seem to sit right due to the tip of the 140 hybrid touching.

 

[strat81]

Yes, no cam over or anything. It’s not the case hitting, but like I said, the stem doesn’t seem to sit right due to the tip of the 140 hybrid touching.

Look at the 5:00 mark (exactly) in the seating stem video I posted above.

I'd skip getting a new sizing die. Remove the expander from your current die and use a mandrel die. I use a Sinclair with the neck turning (.002") mandrel, but 21st Century makes a fine product too.

I don't want the hassle of bushing dies, neck thickness, turning, etc., so I stick with a regular FL sizer.

 

[Backcountryguy]

A good reason to use a bushing die AND an expander mandrel is so that you are not over-working the brass.

A typical FL sizing die like your Hornady Custom dies will squeeze your case neck down way more than necessary.

I’ll use my 223 Custom grade does as an example.

They squeeze the outside of my case necks down to .238”....after running my expander mandrel through the brass...my exterior diameter is now at .247”

So, when I got my Redding bushing die, I ordered a .245” bushing. This way, my expander mandrel only needs to open my case mouth by roughly .002”

 

[FLIGHT762]

[QUOTE="Backcountryguy, post: 8005538, member: 141078

I have the Sinclair body and mandrels...but wish I had the 21st Century. You can really customize your neck tension with the 21st Century setup
[/QUOTE]

I also have the Sinclair body and mandrels. Don't know if you're aware, but from what I've researched on this site, the 21st Century mandrels will work in the Sinclair body. Some day, I'm going to order one of the 21st Century TiN mandrels and try it out.

 

[Backcountryguy]

I did not know that. I figured one or the other changed the design in some way so that they weren’t interchangeable

 

[Dai Bando]

I've got carbide Sinclair mandrels and prefer the 21st Century Ti

 

[spife7980]

I did not know that. I figured one or the other changed the design in some way so that they weren’t interchangeable

K&M is their own special thing.

Sinclair, 21st and PMA all have mandrels interchangeable with each other.

 

[strat81]

I've got carbide Sinclair mandrels and prefer the 21st Century Ti

How are they different?

 

[Jmccracken1214]

A good reason to use a bushing die AND an expander mandrel is so that you are not over-working the brass.

A typical FL sizing die like your Hornady Custom dies will squeeze your case neck down way more than necessary.

I’ll use my 223 Custom grade does as an example.

They squeeze the outside of my case necks down to .238”....after running my expander mandrel through the brass...my exterior diameter is now at .247”

So, when I got my Redding bushing die, I ordered a .245” bushing. This way, my expander mandrel only needs to open my case mouth by roughly .002”

In what order would you go using both? Run it through the bushing die first, then the mandrel?

 

[Huskydriver]

In what order would you go using both? Run it through the bushing die first, then the mandrel?

Yes

 

[Backcountryguy]

In what order would you go using both? Run it through the bushing die first, then the mandrel?

Yes. FL bushing die, then mandrel

Otherwise the case mouth is too big and the mandrel would be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Yes. FL bushing die, then mandrel

Otherwise the case mouth is too big and the mandrel would be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway

So would my mandrel need to match my bushing size?

 

[Backcountryguy]

You’d want the Mandrel to be a alittle bit bigger than the bushing to make sure the mandrel touches the entire surface of the interior of your case necks. That’s why I went bushing die at .002” smaller than the neck diameter after I run my mandrel die.

But if you run multiple brands of brass you’ll likely have more variation in neck thickness...so some brass would be sized more, and some brands of brass would be sized less.

 

[spife7980]

So would my mandrel need to match my bushing size?

Sort of but also not really? The two are independent of one another and it all is dependent on what you want to do.

The bushing pushes the brass smaller from the outside, the mandrel pushes the brass larger from the inside.
You still have the difference in brass thickness and desired level of neck tension in between a labeled bushing and a mandrel dimension.

Ex, brass is .015 thick.

.015 left side neck thickness +.015 right side neck thickness=.030 total combined amount of neck material thickness.

.030 total thickness +.308 bullet diameter=.338 total external neck diameter of a loaded round.

Now, how much neck tension (interference fit) do you want?
A 30 cal turning arbor will measure .002 smaller than a 30 cal bullet so it is .306 and leaves the inside of the case neck at .306. If we add the brass thickness into this the turning arbor leaves the cases with an external diameter of .336.
And a 30 cal expanding mandrel will measure .001 smaller than a 30 cal bullet so its .001 and leaves the inside of the neck at .307. This will leave the brass with an external diameter of .337.


But those mandrels open the case up from the inside out: how do we make the too-large-fired-case thats measuring .342 outside small enough for these mandrels to work the brass? We size them down.
Traditional dies can work it way more than necessary, choosing a proper bushing can eliminate that necessary over working of the brass. So if we want our mandrel to leave the case at the proper dimension it needs to be opening the case up, if we didnt size the case down the mandrel would just pass through the air freely without contacting the brass. In order for the case to get opened up by the mandrel it needs to first be sized down. I like to chose a bushing thats .002 smaller than the outside resultant goal of the mandrel sizing. Since a turning arbor gives us an external dimension of .336 I would want to make the brass a bit smaller first so I would chose a .334 bushing.


Youll need to alter these dimensions for your caliber and brass thickness.

Or you can skip a mandrel altogether and just choose a bushing for the amount of interference fit you want and be done with it.