realistic ar15 groups

DAFAR

DAFAR

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 29, 2003
355
1
Bremerton Washington
#1
hey guys all bravado aside I was curious as to wht AVERAGE sized groups you guys were seeing off the bench with 16 inch AR -15s.


I have a home built AR and currently I am not thrilled with my groups.The rifle is a midlength freefloated medium wieght stainless 1:8 twist barrel.
I am trying to determine if I have an ammo problem, a barrel problem, or did I screw something up in my build. I am capable of holding sub MOA groups so please no deragatory comments about how much I suck.

Last night I tried three different loads whith the following results:

26.5 grains Varget with a 55grm fmj=2moa
24.5 grans varget with hrndy 75 grain bthp= 4 moa
some russian white box steel case shit= 5 moa

please include what type of ammo you are using , and the barrel type and twist rate.I am not looking to hear about the singular awsome groups you have shot, I am interested in the average ones the your rifle shoots on most days.
 
#2
Re: realistic ar15 groups

Really no point in knowing what works in our rifles just yet.

You need to do a systems check first as this sounds more like a rifle issue than ammo. Even crappy Russian stuff should do 3 moa.

Mount and optic being loose, not level or even broken.
Muzzle having a deformity.
 
#3
Re: realistic ar15 groups

Dafar, as you know there are different AR's out there, most of the factory ones shoot 1-3MOA and some of the custom ones guarnatee accuracy. It has so many factors too, I don't mean to be disrespectful especially because you've been on the hide a while, but the barrel and trigger make the difference. I use Lothar Walther barrels in my custom build and on an average I'm getting just over 1/2" groups.

Also i've noticed varget does very well in my bolt guns, but didn't have that good of luck with it in semi autos. i went with ramshot tac and seen big differences in accuracy.
 
#4
Re: realistic ar15 groups

My custom ARs will hold just under 1MOA fairly consistently with preferred handloads. I use 'em to kill 'chit, so that's plenty good enough for me. I look for a decent grouping load that provides the velocity I want from a chosen bullet, and then go shooting/killing with it...
Chasing any more accuracy than that in even a custom gas gun is a waste of my time. ARs ain't bench rifles and I ain't a benchrest shooter, so I don't feel slighted using one to get a bullet inserted into a critter...
 
#5
Re: realistic ar15 groups

Yikes, assuming you are using a scope and not iron sights.

You should be 2MOA or under @ 100yds with PMC factory 55gr. bt fmj, if not, something is amiss either with the rifle or technique. You can rule out technique pretty easily by getting ahold of another AR & seeing if problem replicates.

When you've ruled out technique, go through the rifle systematically changing/fixing only one thing at a time.

You should be able to get 3/4MOA @ 100yds., or better, with tuned handloads.
 
#6
Re: realistic ar15 groups

I built my AR15 and it will shoot under 1" groups at 100 yards, very reliably, using PMC Bronze 55 grain FMJ ammo with a canneleure, and as well with BlackHills remanufactured in 55 grain and 69 grain. This is done off a biod with a rear sand bag found at the range. I do think, with concentration, the gun with this ammo will generally shoot .75" groups most of the time, some better, some worse. Brand new shooters, never having shot a rifle before, have shot 1.00 - 1.25" groups out of it. All of these are 5 shot groups.

The rifle parts that materially affect accuracy include a JP Rifles free float handguard, a Geiselle 2 stage trigger with second stage at 10 oz, a Krieger bull barrel 22" long with 1:9" twist, and a 6 - 24X scope.

You say your technique is good, so will not question that. Still, another shooter with your gun may be informative.

Things to check.

- Loose anything. Check optics, barrel nut, handguard, etc.
- Burr on muzzle.
- Twist rate on barrel & bullet weight.
- I presume you are not shooting in heavy wind. ???
- Dirty barrel. If new, it may have a lot of copper in it.

- Phil
 
#7
Re: realistic ar15 groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DAFAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hey guys all bravado aside I was curious as to wht AVERAGE sized groups you guys were seeing off the bench with 16 inch AR -15s.


I have a home built AR and currently I am not thrilled with my groups.The rifle is a midlength freefloated medium wieght stainless 1:8 twist barrel.
I am trying to determine if I have an ammo problem, a barrel problem, or did I screw something up in my build. I am capable of holding sub MOA groups so please no deragatory comments about how much I suck.

Last night I tried three different loads whith the following results:

26.5 grains Varget with a 55grm fmj=2moa
24.5 grans varget with hrndy 75 grain bthp= 4 moa
some russian white box steel case shit= 5 moa

please include what type of ammo you are using , and the barrel type and twist rate.I am not looking to hear about the singular awsome groups you have shot, I am interested in the average ones the your rifle shoots on most days.

</div></div>
Most 55gr FMJ does not shoot well, WWB has given me the best results, UMC and Federal eagle the worst.
If the muzzle is swelled to .219 like most are 55gr fmjs just will not shoot. I have seen barrels shoot 6" groups with 55s and then shoot a 1/2" group with 69s 2 minutes later.
Try Black Hills 69 or 77gr SMKs, even the remanufactured BH ammo should shoot much better than the 55gr stuff. If you reload 24gr of RE15 with 69gr SMKs should shoot well, the longer body helps keep the bullet stabilized as it leaves the muzzle.
Next watch your muzzle as you shoot, does it come up alot? light short ARs have significant muzzle climb compared to a bolt rig. Try your left hand up front on the forearm like you would if shooting prone with a sling. Pulling down onto the rest or bipod and back will lessen the muzzle climb and tighten your groups.
 
#8
Re: realistic ar15 groups

Sir,
I had a similar expirence as yours and went through about 15 misc. AR's prior to getting some good ones. They are out there. I never did figure out the problem with them. Most were 16" Colt M4 type rifles.
I now shoot Les Baer 16" M4 type carbines. Has a slightly heavier, fluted barrel.
I did a good bit of reading on this site and otherwise and picked up a few tips on shooting them.
An AR is a bit less "shootable" than a bolt gun. Lock time is slower and the recoil impulses are different. I think I could get some of those Colt's to shoot better now. Not sure though. When those light barrels get hot they do tend to open up groups IMO.
With an 8 twist you could try 23.x-24 grains of Ramshot TAC and a 77 gr SMK. Seat to mag length.
With this load in my Baer, I get from a low of 1.15" to a high of 5" groups at 600 yards. This is supported prone, not BR. 5 shot groups. The larger ones are usually due to wind. The smaller ones are flukes, I think. I try to shoot when the wind is lower. In a high varying wind, groups could open a great deal, but this is not what you are asking, I am sure. I would say my average 5 shot group at 600 runs 2.5- 3.5". I shoot the AR most days, say 5 or 6 per week and sometimes AM and PM. Not a lot of shots per trip of course, Just a few groups. Most all firing is with a Surefire can. I did get more consistant groups when I changed to a Magpul stock for better cheek weld. Cut down on my horizontal, which I was blaming on wind. I also recently placed wind flags which reduced my groups, of course. I did not do this for years, as they are not avaiable in the field.
 
#9
Re: realistic ar15 groups

I would run more ammo through it.

Try 69gr and/or 77 Federal Gold Medal and BH 69/77 gr.

The barrel could also be particular about what it likes, sometimes it happens.

If after expending all KNOWN good accurate ammo and the gun still doesn't shoot, trouble shoot the build, then question the components used (eg. barrel, Bolt, upper receiver.)

MOA/Sub-MOA AR's are out there. CONSISTENT MOA/Sub-MOA AR's are only usually with the shooters that can drive them.
 
#11
Re: realistic ar15 groups

+1--buy some BH 69 and 77 grain ammo or FGGM. Use that as your litmus test.

I can give data for the last three barrels I was anal about testing. The first two were 16", I used a lower I had a rock river NM trigger in, not that light but consistently breaks about 4 3/4 lbs.

The last barrel was a 20" barrel with a 4.5 two stage trigger of unknown origin, it was a borrowed NM rifle, iron NM sights.

With the first two barrels,I was using a Leupy 1.75-6X scope--not exactly the best for this. Also it takes me about 20 shots to just find a good set-up for doing benchrest testing with a folding stock AR. The standard M4 stock is really hard to keep a bag under in a consistent way.

#1
Old-ass Bushmaster barrel, 1/9 twist, m4 contour, 15,000 rounds through. Using PMC Bronze 55 grain, 5 shot groups just at or RCH under MOA. Despite looking like shit and having been shot in several carbine courses (ie often shot smoking hot) this barrel seems to shoot everything well (I can't remember anymore hard numbers, but it *seems* to group 55 grain Wolf and everything else I shoot out of it near 1 MOA, maybe 1.5 at most.

Only other ammo I tested with it last time was 5 shots of PRVI 75 grain: 1.2" inches, but that included some vertical stringing, which probably was me. Or that the barrel didn't like the 75 gr ammo.

#2
Smith and wesson 1:9 barrel. m4 contour. Not sure who actually makes the barrel. About 500 rounds through it.

With PMC bronze 55 gr, about 1.7 MOA

With BH 68 grain, about 1.3 MOA, best group. But some much worse.

With BH 69 grain, about .80 MOA. Also shot a 200 yard 5 shot group near 1.7 MOA. It really likes this ammo, as do most of the other AR barrels I've shot with this ammo.

With PRVI brass cased 55 grain M193--3 or 4 MOA. Looked like a shotgun pattern. I ended up giving most of this ammo away because I thought it sucked. Then, a year later, I ran some in the above mentioned Bushmaster barrel, and it seemed fine.

#3 white oak 20" barrel on a NM upper for service rifle. It was either 1:8 or 1:7, I can't remember. At 200 yards with the same PMC 55 grain bronze and iron sights it was holding around 2" or 1MOA for 5 shot groups.

From what I've seen people shooting at FV matches, the high end barrels: white oak, etc, are much more consistent. At 200 yards, consistently shooting 1MOA or better.

As I mentioned above, I've gotten good barrels by chance from regular manufacturers, but it's definitely hit or miss and I am now trying to hang onto the more accurate barrels. Anyway that was the last time I actually took notes on these things.
 
#13
Re: realistic ar15 groups

I have a good 14.5" AR 1-7 twist from a well respected manufacturer. I got it and set it up for some tactical carbine matches at the local club and I was sighting it in with a buddy. I got it on paper at 100 with Wolf steel case 62 grain. I was trying to get the zero and this thing was ALL over the place. 2-3 moa easy and not consistent. I went through a pretty thorough check of the components, optics and mounts including retorquing the mount and rings. Still was shooting horribly.

My buddy said it was the cheap ammo. I didn;t think it would make that much difference in a gas gun. Boy was I wrong! I had brought along some handloads for a 223 bolt gun with 77gr SMK bullets and thought what the hell. Instantly tightened into 3/4" to 1 MOA off sandbags.

I know you shot some handloads through it with no luck, but If you have checked out the components, I agree with running some more good ammo through it and see what it does. 1-8 twist may like a heavier bullet.

good luck,
madd0c
 
#14
Re: realistic ar15 groups

Sometimes we hear about 2-3 MOA ammo shooting 3/4" groups in a (Insert High Dollar Brand Name Here) rifle. This is obviously fantasy, often because the premium paid for the rifle with the fancy brand name demands it.

I did have a HBAR 1/9 14.5" rifle that would shoot 1.5 MOA with Q3131A if you threw out the 2 to 3 fliers you'd get with each 10 shot group. The fliers only opened the groups up to 2 to 2.5 MOA, so it really was impressve performance with this ammo. 55gr match ammo in the same barrel would do just MOA but with better consistency.
Match (MOA or better) results require match ammo, no doubt about it.
I've not seen anything yet to make me believe different.
 
#15
Re: realistic ar15 groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I built my AR15 and it will shoot under 1" groups at 100 yards, very reliably, using PMC Bronze 55 grain FMJ ammo with a canneleure, and as well with BlackHills remanufactured in 55 grain and 69 grain. This is done off a biod with a rear sand bag found at the range. I do think, with concentration, the gun with this ammo will generally shoot .75" groups most of the time, some better, some worse. Brand new shooters, never having shot a rifle before, have shot 1.00 - 1.25" groups out of it. All of these are 5 shot groups.

The rifle parts that materially affect accuracy include a JP Rifles free float handguard, a Geiselle 2 stage trigger with second stage at 10 oz, a Krieger bull barrel 22" long with 1:9" twist, and a 6 - 24X scope.

You say your technique is good, so will not question that. Still, another shooter with your gun may be informative.

Things to check.

- Loose anything. Check optics, barrel nut, handguard, etc.
- Burr on muzzle.
- Twist rate on barrel & bullet weight.
- I presume you are not shooting in heavy wind. ???
- Dirty barrel. If new, it may have a lot of copper in it.

- Phil

</div></div>

I've never seen PMC bronze shoot that good. All the cases of the stuff I bought were never better than 1.5MOA and that was actually the stuff that had the old white box. (Not sure if that was any different, but it seemed to shoot different.) Most tend to be around 2MOA. Also it's a very shotgun like pattern with a terrible mean radius something like 1.25MOA .

XM193 on the other hand shoots right around 1.5MOA extreme spread, with a really good mean radius. Hovering around 0.5-0.75MOA Mean Radius. I've noticed some XM193 lots that didn't shoot all that well for me. Once I bought it in this 400rd box that seemed to not shoot as well as the old stuff I have. I hope that the new stuff I bought on stripper clips is as good as my old XM193.

With the AR-15 I try to shoot 10 shot groups to get a good evaluation of ammo and rifle capability.

My most accurate AR-15's are a RRA 20" 1/9 HBAR just plain chromoly bbl, no chrome lining. I had some blue box black hills 52gr stuff that just shot insane. Like right around 3/4MOA. I need to get more of it sometime. Other one is a CLE 18" 1/7 SPR midlength w/ matched bolt. Never shot anything better than XM193 through it. I get the occasional 1MOA group, but really I look at the average(mean spread) and it's super tight. I've really been meaning to load some 77gr SMK's for it.
 
#16
Re: realistic ar15 groups

I have a SIG 556 (1:7 twist) that according to current widom is supposed to shoot 69 & 77 grain projos more accurately that lighter bullets. Not mine I get 4-5" 100 groups. Yet with 52 grain SMK's with 26.1 grains of 748 will shoot close to 1 MOA @ 100 yards. Varified 1:7 twist to be sure. Sounds similar to your problem as 55 grainers shot best. I can't explin it. Can some one else chime in?
 
#17
Re: realistic ar15 groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmonaxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I built my AR15 and it will shoot under 1" groups at 100 yards, very reliably, using PMC Bronze 55 grain FMJ ammo with a canneleure, and as well with BlackHills remanufactured in 55 grain and 69 grain. This is done off a biod with a rear sand bag found at the range. I do think, with concentration, the gun with this ammo will generally shoot .75" groups most of the time, some better, some worse. Brand new shooters, never having shot a rifle before, have shot 1.00 - 1.25" groups out of it. All of these are 5 shot groups.

The rifle parts that materially affect accuracy include a JP Rifles free float handguard, a Geiselle 2 stage trigger with second stage at 10 oz, a Krieger bull barrel 22" long with 1:9" twist, and a 6 - 24X scope.

You say your technique is good, so will not question that. Still, another shooter with your gun may be informative.

Things to check.

- Loose anything. Check optics, barrel nut, handguard, etc.
- Burr on muzzle.
- Twist rate on barrel & bullet weight.
- I presume you are not shooting in heavy wind. ???
- Dirty barrel. If new, it may have a lot of copper in it.

- Phil

</div></div>

I've never seen PMC bronze shoot that good. All the cases of the stuff I bought were never better than 1.5MOA and that was actually the stuff that had the old white box. (Not sure if that was any different, but it seemed to shoot different.) Most tend to be around 2MOA. Also it's a very shotgun like pattern with a terrible mean radius something like 1.25MOA .

XM193 on the other hand shoots right around 1.5MOA extreme spread, with a really good mean radius. Hovering around 0.5-0.75MOA Mean Radius. I've noticed some XM193 lots that didn't shoot all that well for me. Once I bought it in this 400rd box that seemed to not shoot as well as the old stuff I have. I hope that the new stuff I bought on stripper clips is as good as my old XM193.

With the AR-15 I try to shoot 10 shot groups to get a good evaluation of ammo and rifle capability.
</div></div>

Frankly, the PMC Bronze surprised me as well. I have shot at least 200 rounds of the stuff, so the reasonably good groups are not flukes.

- Phil
 
#18
Re: realistic ar15 groups

My 16" and 18" JP CTR-02s shoot around 2" with my 55gr load and around 1.5" with my 69gr load.
My MSTN build with a 20" WOA SDM barrel is ~1.5" with the 55s and 1-1.5" with the 69s.
All three rifles are 1/8 twist with Wylde chambers
10 round groups shot at 200y prone with bipod and Meopta K-dot at 4x
55gr load is Hornady FMJ in front of 24.5gr H335
69gr load is Sierra MK in front of 25.1gr VV140

Best group with the 20" was completely covered by a 7/8" target paster, which I guess would be something like 0.35MOA. Not something I've been able to repeat and like you said, one good group doesnt make an average
wink.gif

The numbers above should be a fairly honest representation of my gear though.
 
#19
Re: realistic ar15 groups

Just thinking out loud here, but have you run it over a chrono? I wonder if you're not blowing some powder out the tube in such a short barrel. If you are, you can probably smell and hear the difference or see it in a high range of velocities. I shoot a 24" 1-8" twist RRA Varmint and my rifle is very quiet and efficient compared to others I've shot. I've used it at night fox hunting and you see a puff of vapor or smoke, almost no flash. Are you getting much powder fouling after a shot or two? You may need a faster powder to burn in that short of a distance or hotter primers or lower charges, or all three. I'm running BL-C(2) and a CCI SRM primer with 50gn. V-maxes in mine. It'll outshoot me and most people I know any day of the week. I'd say off the bench it is a solid sub moa performer at 100yds with that load and my better optics mounted. I also had surprisingly good groups out of the American Eagle 55 FMJ cheap ammo. It also took a couple hundred rounds for my rifle to settle in as well. When it was new, 2.5" at a 100yds with Black Hills would've been more the norm. My 1-8" seems to like the 40-60gn v-maxes with the CCI SRM and BL-C(2) combinations. I haven't seen a need to change to anything heavier since it isn't my long range varmint rig.
 
#23
Re: realistic ar15 groups

I just finished a build not long ago and it is my first AR that I put together. I am running a WOA 16 barrel and it shoots 1/2 to 1 MOA @100 I even got 1.5 MOA with wolf ammo. Hope you find what is wrong.
 
#24
Re: realistic ar15 groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those 1/2 inch squares? </div></div>

inside square 1/2" and outside square 1"
target

 
#25
Re: realistic ar15 groups

with 2 16" basic M4 types my goal was 13 -15 cent reload cost and 1 1/2 MOA have not made it with either, this is what I have settled for
1 in 9 chrome lined delton heavy barrel 5.56 chamber - range pickup assorted brass well prepped + weigh sorted, 55gr LC bulk bullet weigh sorted, H355 powder i think 24.2 gr, seated short about 2.2 in 2 MOA 17 cents
1 in 10 stainless Oly match .223 chamber, same mixed brass, 55 gr hornady bulk bullet weigh sorted, ramshot exterminator powder, remington primer 2.25 OAL, 14 cents 2MOA
 
#26
Re: realistic ar15 groups

Shooting small groups with an AR is not as important as shooting CONSISTENT with it. A 2 MOA sporadic gun is worse than a 2 MOA consistent gun.

The problem is a lot of AR shooters tend to compare the consistency (either theirs or the rifles) to a bolt gun... and that is where the problem starts. That right there is where the myth "Semi autos (namely AR's) can't shoot as well as a bolt gun" may have started.

The truth is that the AR is a lot more sensitive to shooter inconsistencies than a bolt gun, also with technically 3 recoil pulses, complete follow through successfully and consistently is a little harder and will show on paper.

I've found that when behind an AR if you hold the rifle well enough to where the recoil pulse allows you to spot your hit on paper throughout the ENTIRE recoil cycle you'll notice the best shooter consistency. Kind of general but thats basically what it is, to me at least.
 
#27
Re: realistic ar15 groups

A quick question or 2. I too am having some difficulty with a recent ar15 build. This is not my first build
RRA matched flat top upper and lower( very tight fitted from factory)
RRA lpk
lmt sopmod stock
knights railed foreend
1/7 fn "M16" length barrel/ a2 flash hider, new when I got it
10x bushnell elite in a one pc mount

have tried numerous factory loads 45-62 gr. Nothing worth writing about for groups.

Been working some loads of the following
75 hornady bthp match
imr8208 or h4895
rem 7 1/2 br primers
brass = 1.750
coal 2.250
Ogive with hornady comparator is about 2.835

Is there a MAGICAL primer for the ar, I have loaded for pistol and bolt rifles for 20yrs but this is my first venture into ar15 handloads.
I am getting 5 shot groups of around 1.5-2.0 inches at 100yds , bipod prone. Yesterday during testing (imr8208 in increments of .2rains) I shot a total of 5 5rd groups(various test loads) at 100 yds that all regardless of powder charge hit within a 3 inch circle. Definately not up to my bolt gun or regular accuracy standards. If anyone has a maic load pushing the 75 rhornady bthp or a 55grain sierra blitzking with either h4895 or imr8208 Please pm me as I am a little upset for the money tied up in this. Thanks
 
#28
Re: realistic ar15 groups

Try working up a load with Varget or Reloader 15 under a 69 SMK or 77 SMK. You should be fine with the primers and you didn't mention the brand of brass you're using.

Keep in mind that I have seldom seen any chrome lined barrels shoot less than MOA, although there might be some out there they are far and few in between. The usual group with hand loads tend to hover in the 1 - 2 MOA range.

 
#29
Re: realistic ar15 groups

My Noveske Recon regularly shoots between .5" and .75" at 100 with Hornady 75gr BTHP, Black Hills 77gr, and FGMM 69's and 77's. I have shot a couple five round groups at .65" with 55gr CCI Speer, but most grouped at about 1.25". This is about as good as I've seen with an AR (I've owned several including WOA, RR, BM, Colt, & LMT).. However, I've been talking to JP about a build and they are claiming .25" groups with a CTR-02, I'm tempted but not convinced.
 
#30
Re: realistic ar15 groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Texas_Archer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those 1/2 inch squares? </div></div>

inside square 1/2" and outside square 1"
target

</div></div>

Thanks man, ill start using them.
 
#31
Re: realistic ar15 groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lwrkeysfisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My Noveske Recon regularly shoots between .5" and .75" at 100 with Hornady 75gr BTHP, Black Hills 77gr, and FGMM 69's and 77's. I have shot a couple five round groups at .65" with 55gr CCI Speer, but most grouped at about 1.25". This is about as good as I've seen with an AR (I've owned several including WOA, RR, BM, Colt, & LMT).. However, I've been talking to JP about a build and they are claiming .25" groups with a CTR-02, I'm tempted but not convinced. </div></div>

I wouldn't be convinced either unless they have a money back guarantee or something. It would also be senseless because I personally have yet to see an AR shooter capable of holding .25" CONSISTENTLY. I'm talking at least 5 shots into a .25" @ 100 yards consistently, not one 5 shot group at .25" out of 3 or 4 that are about MOA.

I guess at the very least JP is "claiming" the rifle can do that (which is the disclaimer and which is totally believable) and independent results will vary. On paper... sure its .25" capable, but realistically its more like "however good and capable the shooter is".

In your case I'm guessing that even with that JP rifle you'll see MOA regularly which means that you're about an MOA shooter with an AR, whether its "guaranteed" at .1 MOA or 1 MOA. With great expectations expect great disappointment.
 
#32
Re: realistic ar15 groups

That makes sense to me. I never vise my rifles, so I couldn't tell you their true capabilities. I do know that my average group size from my last 30--five & 10 round groups (with match ammo) out of my RECON is .71". Out of all the other AR's I've owned only my Rock River Coyote Carbine held that kind of accuracy and my average with it was .9ish (match ammo over 500rds). FWIW JP has a 1/2MOA guarantee--I'm sure it's a three round group though. In the end of the day JP uses Wilson blanks just like Rock River, WOA, and Wilson Combat. Though JP does add a few steps in fitting the parts, I'm not sold that their rifles are that much more accurate.

I continually look for something better because I want to continue to push myself to perform better and don't want to use the gun as a crutch. I like knowing my gun will shoot better than me.
 
#33
Re: realistic ar15 groups

I'm not sure about my average shot groups. I try not to spend a lot of time at the 100 yard range. I was shooting golf ball, baseball, and softball size rocks with first round hits at 350 yards, 75 grain match. I realize 350 yards isnt really that far but it will have to do until the range gets opened up to 500 yards.
 
#34
Re: realistic ar15 groups

Firstly, I'm not the greatest AR shooter. But my experience with a 16" M4 profile Bushmaster chrome-lined barrel with 1:9 twist was 2-3" 30-round groups at 100yd off a bench with a cheap Bushnell scope. I think this is pretty typical for factory ammo from a factory chrome-lined barrel.
 
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