Realistic Expectations when ordering a custom gun

[Bruiser_Joe]

Ok so I am no newb to ordering custom guns, I consider myself friends with a few big name smiths. I am also no stranger to the waiting game, but some recent posts on here drive me nuts. Many many many people take the right attitude to ordering a gun, wether its a DTA, new AI, GAP, surgeon, black ops, tac ops, etc if its a big shop that actually responds to emails and isn't going anywhere its a good bet your gun will show up within what is considered normal which at times is between 4 months to a year and a half pending parts, size of the shop, specs etc. Now if you look outside of the precision rifle world at the world of custom wheel guns, 1911's etc the normal wait is anywhere from 1-5 years for a gun back from your favorite smith. Now shops like GA Precision, Surgeon, DTA, etc are larger shops with multiple people working there. Usually with very large number of rifles in the works, so i'm always amazed when people are upset that they don't receive a response from their customer service rep like he is sitting and staring at your individual rifle and has the specs memorized. As in with the GAP 10's, George has been constantly updating status of parts, etc. There are around or over 100 each month from what i've been told that are ordered. thats one month so if you look at the wait time your looking at a list of 600-1000 people waiting on the same rifle in any number of specs, barrel lengths, colors, parts combos. Yet how dare they give you a "generic" answer. Look at the status of the industry right now with people like larue not even giving timelines because they are SO backordered. LMT is giving 2-3 year estimates on MWS's, all companies are at the whim of their parts suppliers simply cuz nobody makes in house EVERY part on their gun. Not to say there isn't poor customer service out there but you guys seriously need to take a deep breath and step back and realize you are one of 100's if not thousands of customers waiting for weapons. I know you want reassurance and a reach around for your money but please get over yourself and give these guys a break, they are working to get you your weapons. just my .02

 

[Slapchop]

Given the prices of some of these custom guns, I don't think it is asking too much that when a customer has a question, it is addressed by the smith in a timely and accurate manner. Now, I'm not talking about the guy that calls twice a day everyday of production but if I place an order with "X gunsmith" and a custom weapon and I happened to have a question or concern, I shouldn't have to chase the guy down in order to get an answer. I sure as shit didn't have to chase him down for him to take my deposit.

If companies are so overwhelmed by the influx of orders that they can't be bothered to handle the customer service side of things then they should either; A. Hire more staff and revamp their system to handle the demand. With the increase in orders, comes more cash, more profit so use that to expand the business. OR B. They should stop taking orders all together until they can catch up. When people tend to get in over their heads that is when mistakes tend to happen and that goes for everyone, not just the gun industry.

I only speak for myself but to me the finished product isn't as important as the customer service aspect of the transaction. What a company does after the sale is a large part of what defines them.

 

[Lowlight]

How much you paid doesn't give you the right to constant updates.

Many people have the attitude they paid a premium and this entitles them to call as often as they can. There is no reasonable number, and there is no reason to call inside the window. If you were promised 1 year and you call anytime before, you're wrong.

This is is an instant gratification society and people have no throttle control. The idea you a paid a premium allows you additional updates is ridiculous. You paid for the rifle, not for them to answer your call. Not to mention the people who think they can modify the order mid stream, who heard rumor X over rumor Y, who think they can adjust the order and make it go faster.

If the time frame can't be met sure, when you reached a year, telling you it will be 3 more months, but trust me, there are 100 people in your same shoes thinking the same way, when you call believing you are entitled to an update, you're overwhelming the staff, and not a single one of you wants to talk to the girl on the desk, they want the guy who builds them.

The horror stories are all the same, don't call before your due date. You're not entitled to anything because you paid a premium there was no implied increased CS when you picked that particular rifle, it was never written, pay extra call more.

 

[Slapchop]

As I stated in my first post, I'm not speaking about the guys who constantly call several times a week with nonsensical queries or requests. They're in a league all their own and they slow down the process. I'm referring to a regular guy who places an order and subsequently might have a question, concern or two. Should that guy be afraid to pick up the phone and have his issues addressed? Fuck no. You're not just paying for the rifle but you're also paying for the expertise, advice and CS.

The notion that you're not allowed to shoot an email or make a phone call is ridiculous. As a consumer, anything that I purchase, be it a cup of coffee or an SUV I'm allowed to ask questions or voice my concerns. Most merchants/companies encourage this as it makes for good business. Why should gunsmiths be exempt from this practice? They're no different than other merchants. It's the customers that pay their rent, as such they should be striving to make their customers as happy as possible not only with a good product but with great follow through from start to finish.

The idea that gunsmiths are untouchable or have zero accountalitly to their customers other than delivering on time is a bad one and personally I think its not good for business. At the end of the day, the gunsmiths have the freedom to operate however they please, especially the more popular ones but I have the freedom of taking my money elsewhere. If people don't have time to answer my call, then I don't have time to do business with them.

 

[Lowlight]

Nobody said you can't shoot them an email, but honestly if you put the build in motion what reasonable request can you have, aside from changing something ?

I have a fuck tons of rifles, I can't recall ever calling someone mid build for a "question" that needs to be answered ? Most call because they want it now, or want it changed because of something they read. When ordering it's pretty well spelled out what you are getting. And certainly these inquires we are talking about are NOT emails with simple questions.

I talk to a lot of gunsmiths, this is not the case, nobody calls with a simple inquire, they call because they can't wait, want it now, or want to change things mid stream in hopes it will speed things up, or because someone told them, "you should have .... " .

Websites answer questions, forums answer questions, why do you need to pull the smith off the lathe mid build to answer a question on something you already ordered ? What is the reasonable question you see ?

 

[kish]

Nobody said you can't shoot them an email, but honestly if you put the build in motion what reasonable request can you have, aside from changing something ?

I have a fuck tons of rifles, I can't recall ever calling someone mid build for a "question" that needs to be answered ? Most call because they want it now, or want it changed because of something they read. When ordering it's pretty well spelled out what you are getting. And certainly these inquires we are talking about are NOT emails with simple questions.

I talk to a lot of gunsmiths, this is not the case, nobody calls with a simple inquire, they call because they can't wait, want it now, or want to change things mid stream in hopes it will speed things up, or because someone told them, "you should have .... " .

Websites answer questions, forums answer questions, why do you need to pull the smith off the lathe mid build to answer a question on something you already ordered ? What is the reasonable question you see ?

I totally agree Do your research, most answers are out there if you look. If phone call to a gunsmith takes 15 minutes or more, times that by ten calls from other customers, that can eat up well over two hrs a day he can be making progress on your build . no wonder things are backed up

 

[smokebomb]

This makes me chuckle. Growing up, my parents were self-employed professional horse trainers (eta: I hate horses that aren't for work, don't talk to me about horses). They trained everything from 10 cent dinks up to Paint and Quarter Horse Congress champs...they trained a lot of people too. Some people would drop their horse off for 6 months and not call again til it was time to ride it and take it home, respecting that my folks knew what they were doing. Some people would call every single day of the week to check up on "Binkie"...
Of 50 training horses in the barn at any given time, 10-15 of their owners were the "one-a-days" (dad's term). He got so sick of having to jump off a horse to answer the damn phone, that the ringer got turned off in the barn. When he had 10 horses to ride per day, an hour per horse or more, there wasn't time to answer "which bosal do I need for the futurity?" questions.
My folks always made time when convenient to answer questions, and went above and beyond helping families with horse difficulties (more often human difficulties in not being able to run their equipment...in this case horses...), but not when riding. Being distracted from their task was counter-productive to getting it accomplished.

People paying money have a right to know how it's being spent, I guess, but it's simply selfish to take away from someone else's time and money just to "check in".

 

[Lowlight]

The majority of these calls that are guys wanting their decisions validated.

Did I choose the right smith, talk to me and validate my decision picking you.

Did I spec out the rifle correctly, talk to me about my build and choices. Should I have gone with....

Am I waiting longer than I should ? The longer the wait more the buyer second guesses everything and the more they need reassurance in their decisions.

Its all mental, they want the smith to be part shrink.

 

[Slapchop]

Well I'm assuming that if a build is going to take upwards of six months to a year to complete, I don't think it is unreasonable at all to call up and request changes provided that the process hasn't already begun. I'm not talking about something that is going to "speed up" the build but sometimes people get a change of heart. Might be a different finish, a specific barrel length, upgraded trigger. This is just one of the many reasons someone may have for calling after the purchase order has been drawn up. Maybe the guy wants to work out a payment plan or something, who knows. Tons of things can come up during the course of a year.

The guys that can't wait the time, the ones that need their hands held throughout the process or need validation, and the "one-a-dayers", those guys are a hindrance and they should be dealt with accordingly. The rest of us, its our hard earned money and If I have a reasonable request, I expect someone on the other end of the line to address it. And when they do (mind you, I'm not asking the outrageous or for anyone to jump thru hoops) they win a customer for life and as many people as I can steer their way.

There has to be some sort of a balance here. Gunsmiths need to understand that they are running a business and as such they are going to have to deal with customers. Some reasonable and some not so much. Customers need to put themselves in the shoes of the gunsmiths and realize that the more they tie up these guys with non important nonsense, the longer everyone waits.

 

[longrangefool]

My comments below have nothing to do with those people who call every day/other day/every week. Or those that want to change their order. Those people are douchebags and should be told so. This is about those of us that put in an order, havent thought of changing it, and are growing frustrated.

That being said, I don't care what industry you are in, you shall be held accountable for missing a delivery timeframe. If and when I call to see why you didn't deliver, you need to say you're sorry, give me a next best estimate, and you should do it happily. If you have missed your second or third estimate, you should say it really nicely. Remember, you are essentially holding $1234 of my money, indefinetly. And whatever the holdup is, it is not my fault.

If that is taking up too much of your time, thats because you have too many unhappy people. That's probably because you allowed too many orders. Take a few months orders and fulfull them. The people that want your stuff will still be chomping at the bit to get it when the line reopens and those that were going to flake out will be gone already.

See, some of us don't have 10 of each type of gun. I have a short range gun and now I'm waiting for my long range gun. I'm not bitching because I'm going to have to shoot that match with last years toy, I'm bitching because I just plain don't have anything that will work. Maybe I had planned on attending this event for 6 months after I should have had my item, but its now 7 months late.

The reason I haven't called up and yelled at anyone is because I understand whats going on. That in no way means I'm happy with the situation. But it really gets me goin when someone who is not in my situation thinks I have no right to feel like that. Because you're dead wrong.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

For every one valid call I bet there is 10 that are not, just like for every one gun that may live to see a barrel change there are 10 that they build that the original owner will sell it before 1000 rounds. Of course if you have a "valid" reason then call and most are more then happy to help. When is that reasonable time though for you to change your order one something? How about you decide before you place the order.

 

[Lowlight]

No kidding,

if you order a rifle, spec it out and the Smith tells you 1 year for delivery that doesn't mean you have 9 months or more to change your mind. That is definitely and poor customer issue and not a valid reason to call. That is your way of passively punishing the company for making you wait.

To me it seems these valid reasons can clearly be addressed to the office help and not the smith, and really a call to change the order at any point after should start the clock over and put you at the end of the line.

Not once did I read anyone say anything about companies that missed a deadline. Clearly it was said this had to do with people calling inside their delivery window.

 

[JByrd]

I see the way people treat restaurant staff because they spent $40 on a meal for two,its pretty sad. I can only imagine what the smiths have to deal with. I am so glad I don't have to deal with the public that much. it never ceases to amaze me how full grown men can act like sniffling babies when they don't get what they want, when they want it, RIGHT NOW!

 

[Slapchop]

Wanting to change an order way before they even start to think about building your rifle doesn't make anyone a douchebag. Wanting to change an order once a barrel has been cut, a brake installed or a rifle painted makes one a douchebag.

There is nothing wrong in calling up and saying:

Customer: Hey, how's it going XYZ Rifleworks, I placed an order about two months ago and if the work hasn't already begun on my rifle, I would like to change/upgrade whatever.
XYZ Rifleworks: Lemme check on that for ya pal, yeah looks like we haven't gotten to your build just yet, now what is it you'd like to change? Shouldn't be a problem.

Simple, done deal. Just a matter of crossing something out on a purchase order and writing in the change. Now if the guy insists on this change AFTER the process has begun then I agree he is a tool and it is up the the shop whether or not they want to or will accommodate him.

When you stop holding folks accountable is when they become "too big for their britches" when they become to big for their britches they're work suffers because they stop caring.


Edit: I have no problems NOT talking to the actual smith. I'd much rather talk to the office pogs so long as they know what the hell they're talking about.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

slap that is perfect if you are their only customer, figure a large shop like GAP with thousands of rifles on order, or even a smaller shop with 100-200 rifles backlogged, whatever the number is. If even 20 percent does that then the smith or their officer people are changing orders and not on the lathe, processing finished rifles, responding to emails of people asking the same questions but in through a different medium. You guys look too small a picture, i agree that minor things or additions come up, fine. But i'm with frank, if you can't make up your mind you should be moved till you are. I see too many posts by people wanting these huge in depth personalized emails from guys like Terry Cross or Mike at tac ops, who are two of the nicest people in the industry but very small shops. They build rifles all day and respond to their emails at night or early morning, how many hours of their day do you feel belongs to you because you chose to purchase a rifle from them? How many hours? Yes you pay 4k-5k whatever for a rifle but what is actually parts cost? I'm just saying, just like the ammo hoarders are the reason for the ammo shortage, you guys are also the cause for slow responses, delays, and numerous headaches for the guys trying to get you your gun.

 

[Lowlight]

You're again assuming a lot.

First it is 2 months, oh simple, no problem, then it's 4, then 8... there needs to be line. What happens when the guy who ordered a 30 cal decides 3 months later he wants a 6.5 and now that barrel is not in the shop and the barrel maker tells the builder, 10 months for the barrel. So the customer, who was told, sure, change your order, just wasted 3 months, now has to wait 10 months, and that pushes the build back to 16 months. So now you want the Smith to call the customer back, and waste more time asking if he really wants the order changed because the barrel won't be available for 10 months, so do you want to want 16 months ? The customer then says, no, I want my original order. You have 3x more work involved because you felt entitled to changing your original order.

Wasted Time: 1st call changing order, call to barrel company, call back to customer, then making sure the original order wasn't change. Now multiply that times 10X a month, even 5 a month... what gets done very little.

The gall, the ego to think you are doing the Smith a favor changing your order mid stream. That who cares, the order wasn't started yet, he should make YOU happy with your indecision.

It's a huge problem, that only multiplies and gets worse with each guy who feels they are ENTITLED to the same treatment. I paid $4k, I can do whatever I want, I paid for it. well that is not what you paid for, I would charge a change fee. My time x3.

 

[Slapchop]

They're not assumptions, they're expectations. If I'm giving a guy half or a 1/3 of a 4k plus build, I sure as hell expect for him or his staff to address my concerns if I happen to have any. Anything else is just ludicrous. Like I said before, with the amount of money they charge for these things and the demand that exists for them, they sure as hell can afford to hire someone to run the office and answer questions, a non builder. I've ordered from GAP before and I was perfectly happy dealing with Ken, I didn't feel a need to talk to George.

Indecisive or not it's good practice for merchants to strive to keep their customers happy within reason of course. If a change to an order a couple of months in is feasible and doable than why not accommodate that? If it is more involved than that and pushes the delivery time further back then that is solely on the customer and if the smith decides that he wants to charge a fee for any changes then I don't see that being unreasonable either. It will then be up to the consumer to determine whether or not he/she wants to proceed. I'm not saying that a change HAS to happen but at the very least it should be addressed and customers shouldn't be made to feel as if they can't call up the shop to simply ask.

What is unreasonable is the notion that these guys, just because they build cool guns should be held up on some pedestal as if they were Demi Gods or something. Its their customer base who keeps them in business and as such they should do whatever possible to keep their customers happy.

If you're too backlogged, stop taking orders and or hire more staff.

 

[308Gunner]

I sit down and put to paper exactly what I wanted, thought about it some more made some changes and then ordered. I talked to the smith @ the time of order and waited for 7 months not as long as some shorter than others but I ordered a custom gun, if you want it right now go to Walmart.

 

[Hammertime]

I've never had the opportunity to order a custom rifle from a premier gunsmith. I hope to have that chance someday and would expect a certain level of customer service during the process. I would assume there is or should be a pretty extensive paperwork and ordering process to get all the details sorted out ahead of time and the materials could be ordered and the process started. I would also think the contract spells out an estimated timeline and fees for potential change orders. Also a designated "your shit out of luck, your too late to change anything" after this date. Perfectly reasonable. That's how I worked as a General Contractor. I put up with this for the most part and considered it part of the business, I didn't always like it or agree with it but the customer is paying me to do the work. They did not hire me and throw money at me and give me free reign,and bow to me each day, I worked for them. Now, if I had a clear contract and a set of plans and got part way through the job and the customer took a hard right and totally changed things, they payed for it. People change their minds and that's fine, they just have to know ahead of time it might cost them. So, I hope if the day comes when I can order a custom rifle and do my homework I might be able to call the shop during the process and speak to someone about it. Maybe even with a dumbass question. I don't expect to pull the smith off the lathe or CNC but don't think some level of contact with someone is out of the question. Maybe some of you guys do this often and it's no big deal, but I might just get one chance to do this and want it done right. I'll do my part and expect the same from the guy doing the work and some level of customer service. I don't think that is too much to ask. Hopefully I will continue to learn here and be able to choose a builder that shares my point of view, not a primadonna who can't be approached.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

They're not assumptions, they're expectations. If I'm giving a guy half or a 1/3 of a 4k plus build, I sure as hell expect for him or his staff to address my concerns if I happen to have any. Anything else is just ludicrous. Like I said before, with the amount of money they charge for these things and the demand that exists for them, they sure as hell can afford to hire someone to run the office and answer questions, a non builder. I've ordered from GAP before and I was perfectly happy dealing with Ken, I didn't feel a need to talk to George.

Indecisive or not it's good practice for merchants to strive to keep their customers happy within reason of course. If a change to an order a couple of months in is feasible and doable than why not accommodate that? If it is more involved than that and pushes the delivery time further back then that is solely on the customer and if the smith decides that he wants to charge a fee for any changes then I don't see that being unreasonable either. It will then be up to the consumer to determine whether or not he/she wants to proceed. I'm not saying that a change HAS to happen but at the very least it should be addressed and customers shouldn't be made to feel as if they can't call up the shop to simply ask.

What is unreasonable is the notion that these guys, just because they build cool guns should be held up on some pedestal as if they were Demi Gods or something. Its their customer base who keeps them in business and as such they should do whatever possible to keep their customers happy.

If you're too backlogged, stop taking orders and or hire more staff.

I"m sorry chop, customers like you are the reason shops stop answering their phone. I don't agree with you at all, their job is to build guns. For the skill involved in what they do and the time involved in building each gun i don't think they ask unreasonable prices. Think about the cost of a custom action, barrel, stock, trigger, mag, box, sling, whatever is included in a gun. I bet your paying about 100 dollars an hour for their time, if that (and thats on the high side i think). 100 dollars an hour is not unreasonable for the skill involved. if you don't like it then buy a factory gun like a 5r, FN, AI, TRG, Barret, etc. I fully agree that customer service is paramount, if when you receive your rifle, there is a issue and they send you a shipping label and fix their problem that is customer service. I do not think customer service is a weekly update on your rifle through email, if shops hire more staff, the price goes up on the rifle, that is more people and more time spent per gun, simple as that. I know ken really well, and Dustin at GAP. those two BUST THEIR ASS dealing with the daily service of people who really just need to let the time go by. Order and be happy, if you want a pat on the back that you ordered the right rifle or your money was well spent, post a thread on here like everyone else. There is what is considered normal, there is above and beyond and i know for a fact that most of the smiths on here will go above and beyond for anyone, i'm just trying to make some people think before they bother then needlessly. Especially when after bothering them monthly/weekly/daily they post on here about how they don't like the timelines.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

I don't work for any shop and this doesn't benefit me other then if the daily callers stop then guns for everyone will go out faster. REAL issues then by all means contact your smith, if you haven't got an update and its past your quoted length of time then call, if you need your self esteem lifted on your purchase just come on here.

 

[Slapchop]

Joe, you have not been reading my posts. I never said anything about weekly or even monthly updates. In fact, I could care less if the shop calls at all other than to tell me that my rifle is done. What I've been referring to is that fact that some of you think that as a paying customer I'm not allowed to call and ask questions. I disagree with that. If I have an issue whether it be start, middle or end, I should be able to pick up that phone and have it addressed.

I never said anything about calling everyday or on a weekly basis but I don't think its such a stretch that something might arise in a years time and people shouldn't be afraid to pick up the phone. A gunsmith's job is to build guns. A great gunsmith not only builds guns but takes the time to answer questions and offer advice.

 

[Bluejazz]

After reading this thread, I have come to appreciate the smith I use even more than I did before.
I also, consider him a friend at this point as well.
When you find a good one, with great customer service, you become a loyal customer.
However, you need to be a good client as well. Responsibility lies on both sides of the transaction.

 

[Mike]

Just don't buy custom

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

no i understand what your saying slap, but you are not saying it correctly. A great smith builds a gun with good detail work, accuracy, reliability. I could care less if i talk to my smith unless there is a issue. So when everyone orders a rifle from GAP you only want to talk to george? is he not a "great" smith? If you talked to a receptionist at KMW would terry be less of a smith? I said i'm not talking about the normal concerns and calls. Neither is Frank, we are talking about the calls that you obviously don't deal with but exist and pester and bother the guys but they would never come on here and vent about since that would be a turn off to customers. So i am calling you guys stupid instead since i think its retarded.

 

[RussW1911]

SlapChop…. You are the EXACT reason, to a "T" that I cringe when my office phone rings.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

However, you need to be a good client as well. Responsibility lies on both sides of the transaction.

this is what i'm talking about

 

[Slapchop]

SlapChop…. You are the EXACT reason, to a "T" that I cringe when my office phone rings.

Then maybe you should find another line of work. Either that or learn to read and understand what it is you're reading.

 

[Lowlight]

Ya we're all reading you wrong ... It's not you at all.

 

[RussW1911]

Then maybe you should find another line of work. Either that or learn to read and understand what it is you're reading.

No, I have a great relationship with countless customers, both on the Ammo side and the Rifle side of our company. The sense of entitlement that you seem to have is humorous at best.

 

[Slapchop]

What sense of entitlement? The fact that I expect you to answer your phone after I've given you my money? You're kidding right? Its that elitist attitude that will turn people off from your product. If guys like you don't have time to talk to your customers than why bother having a phone at all?

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Slap, I have said numerous times that there is "normal" and there isn't. The larger shops do have people that are paid to answer phones but the smaller ones do not. There are numerous one man shops that put out amazing rifles, what do you want them doing? answering phones or catching up on guns. When shops don't take orders there is a huge uproar on here on why they don't. You can't please everyone and we obviously can't please you with our answer.

 

[RussW1911]

The fact that you feel you are so much more important than the rest of the people out there. You need to get off your high horse and let everyone do their work man. I have 3 guns in mid build with 2 different builders. I did my homework before hand so I knew exactly what I wanted from the start. Just because you are paying someone for service doesn't give you any sort of power over them. If you have and order and you're not happy, cancel it. There are 500 people behind you that are PATIENTLY and RESPECTFULLY waiting to get the call, not calling for updates. There is a reason why the top gun builders are the top builders. Let them do their job.

 

[Slapchop]

Bigjoe, I've said numerous times that I would rather the builders build and that there should be someone who's sole job is to run the office and answer phones and emails. You're in the business of providing a product to the general public. Addressing the general public comes with the territory. Whether it be normal inquiries or downright stupid ones, its part of the job. If the small shops can't keep up, they need to expand in order to stay above water.

I would gladly pay a bit more for a product, regardless of what it is, if it means that there will be a person I can deal with should the need arise. I think you and I actually agree on this but somewhere the lines of communication are being muddied. If not, then we can agree to disagree and that's that.

 

[Slapchop]

The fact that you feel you are so much more important than the rest of the people out there. You need to get off your high horse and let everyone do their work man. I have 3 guns in mid build with 2 different builders. I did my homework before hand so I knew exactly what I wanted from the start. Just because you are paying someone for service doesn't give you any sort of power over them. If you have and order and you're not happy, cancel it. There are 500 people behind you that are PATIENTLY and RESPECTFULLY waiting to get the call, not calling for updates. There is a reason why the top gun builders are the top builders. Let them do their job.

Respectfully huh? And I'm the one with the sense of entitlement.

It's not about being more important than others. Has nothing to do with that. I don't know how else to say it so that you can understand it but If I give you my money for something, I have no issues waiting on it for the specified amount of time that it takes for you to build it. That being said, are you telling me that if an issue comes up, I can't call you to see if it can be addressed? I'm not talking about "updates" which everybody seems to be hung up on.

I want a different trigger on a rifle that you're supposed to be building for me. An upgrade. I can't call you to see if something can't be worked out? Regardless if I have to wait longer or pay more, or should I just cancel the order all together?

 

[RussW1911]

Weird that just about everyone, BUT you seems to be on the same page here.

I still say you should have done your homework before the order. These weapon systems are not that complicated. There are not that many decisions that need to go into planning one.

 

[Slapchop]

So you'd rather join the bandwagon as opposed to stand on your own and answer the questions that I posed to you? Okay, never mind bro. You win.

 

[Lowlight]

Today it's a trigger, tomorrow it's the caliber, the next day it's the stock. Where is the line, and how long did your deposit entitle you to keep the prospect of a change open?

Your "issues" mid build are on you, want a different trigger, send the trigger to be installed, but let's face it, the trigger excuse is just the weakest justification you can come up with. Your "issues" don't exist you just want to keep the door open as long as possible because according to you, you paid for the right to change or discuss "issues".

 

[pawprint2]

A rifle is a small expenditure as compared to a new vehicle. Go to a dealer sit down and order a new car/truck, make a deposit, sign the paper work etc., how many changes do you think you are entitled to after the deal has been made?? Rather than the dealer, call the mfg directly! Hello, Ford? Yea, this is joe shitz-I've decided to go with a different rear end, can you change that up, and give me a call if the production schedule has any changes-I'll be in touch every week or so just to see how it's going....... Sounds stupid as hell, what makes the mfg of a rifle any different?

 

[Mark williams]

I think once a person deals with the public enough in business , then only he and others that have been down that road, truly understand. 26 years dealing with all types and I'm past that point!

 

[shootist2004]

Every business would love to have the problem of "too many orders". Your first reaction would be add on a second or third shift and hire more people...
I can see the ad in Craigslist now....."need 7 gunsmiths who can build a 1/4 moa rifle"...Im sure there are plenty of them sitting around looking for work....
Or buy 3 more CNC machines @ 200K each and hope the market doesnt drop out with the next republican president so you can make the payments..........

 

[John_in_WYO]

Thanks for bringing this up BigJoe29. I've bitten my tongue/keyboard several times over this issue.
We Americans are some impatient sons-a-bitches aren't we?
I waited 3 years for a custom revolver from a big name gunsmith. So what?
I have it now and don't even think about the waiting period. It pounds critters.
A custom .25-06 was a year wait.
Shoot other stuff in the meantime.

 

[VJJPunisher]

I ordered a baker's dozen fleshlights 2 weeks ago, ive called everyday to check on em, then changed my order to a half dozen two foot double dongs and six tenga eggs......still waiting but the indian sounding feller on the phone was very nice

 

[Chanonry]

Just don't buy custom

Exactly, that's one of the reasons I bought an AI - hassle free purchase

 

[Hammertime]

After reading this thread, I have come to appreciate the smith I use even more than I did before.
I also, consider him a friend at this point as well.
When you find a good one, with great customer service, you become a loyal customer.
However, you need to be a good client as well. Responsibility lies on both sides of the transaction.

Slapchop and BigJoe29 like this.

This sums up the point both of you are trying to make since you both "liked" the post. And that point has been made by BOTH sides. I think the sticking point is the term "custom" since it implies specific input and specifications from the buyer and the willingness of the builder to accomodate this. I think we all agree that there is a distinct line that needs to be drawn as far as what should be expected from the builder and when the buyer needs to shut the hell up. I read through the whole thread again this morning and realized something else that may be a big part of the discussion and I'm going to speak for myself only. Frank, I'm going to use you as part of my example. You have a TON of knowledge and experience and know exactly what you would want in a custom rifle and can place an order and walk away. I have not reached the point where I know enough to go this route, hopefully someday. So buying custom is not the next step for me at this time, I will shoot out the barrel on what I have, upgrade and experiment and continue to learn here and find out exactly what I want when the time comes. Good points all. VJJ, you never cease to crack me up.
P.S. On a more important topic, go to the thread at the top of this section and try to make a donation to a member who is in a bad way.

 

[EventHorizon]

"Hi, I'm EventHorizon and I'm a whiney customer..."

I have had a custom build and in fact, I'm bit of a custom/bespoke whore as I have suits, shirts etc made bespoke as well. The similarities in regards to the process and roles of customer and 'smith/tailor' are poignant and I've made mistakes that led me to being a whiney customer. Based on these mistakes here's what I've learned and how I see it.

The key is the customer being informed about TWO things:

1. What is the actual service the smith is providing
2. Is what you want aligned with #1?

If in answering #2 the customer realizes - 'shit, I don't know what I want' then the choices of smiths should be zero and instead an off the rack gun should be considered. I say this because the vast majority of smiths are not big enough operationally to be able to guide, consult and update with the regularity that noobs need. So if the customer still wants a custom despite not knowing what they really want then they should be upfront about this when contacting a smith to see if he can handle this.

Although the customer is reaching out to the smith in the first instance the smith should also have the sense to filter out the inappropriate customers. It's pretty clear if a customer is clueless and the smith should decide if he can handle a clueless noob who will undoubtedly need hand-holding. If he does not pass on this customer and takes his money then he's in equal parts to blame for the ensuing hassle and bullshit of whiney calls and tantrums. He knew what he was getting into.

However, if a smith markets himself as someone who will play the role of advisor and design consultant as well as build then that smith should be aware that the advisory part of the service seldom ends when the order is made or the deposit is taken unless he makes it totally clear - "This is it. Consultation over. I'm now heads down building. I'll call you in 6months to let you know how it's going...". If this declaration is not made then to a customer this is a 'relationship' based business model and the smith should factor that in. This is perhaps where what Slap is saying comes in - have people who can field the calls and emails in a timely manner etc.

Frequent calling for updates is a pain. I did this towards the end of my TacOps wait because I was just fed up but in reflection, my frustration was partly due to having gotten into something I knew nothing about. I had money, motivation but no clue. In the end, the timeline and other things got to the point where I wasn't happy with it and Mike very kindly took the rifle back from me. In hindsight I would have preferred if Mike had said to me, "Dude, you're not really suited to this kind of product. Find out what you want based on actually shooting experience and then call me and I'll build you what you know you need." but then, I didn't tell him I was clueless, I knew enough to bullshit I guess.

It's Caveat Emptor in my mind. Having the money to pay for something doesn't equate to being always right. If you call a one-man shop then you should know that if he's on the phone yapping with you then he's not building and he doesn't get paid to yap. If one chooses an excellent but insanely backlogged smith or one with limited capacity then one has no business expecting fast turn around or high volumes of change requests. Merely paying money doesn't mean you'll get the heaven's to open up unless the smith says that's part of the bargain and what you pay for. I've not seen many smiths state that so unless what they say on the phone is different then it's on the customer once the specs are detailed and the products ordered.

Anyway, I'm staying away from full on custom builds unless I know exactly what I want and what it takes to make it happen. Luckily I'm buds with Bohem and we can barrel our own actions and for any work that's needed beyond that then SAC is the go to smith. My next 'build' is a .223 bolt action with Big Horn action in a Rock Solid stock for the wife. I'm hoping that will be a total 'self-build' and if I whine at the smith then it's definitely his fault...

 

[milo 2.0]

We Americans are some impatient sons-a-bitches aren't we?

Wow, how true!
This is interesting, but kind of a simple synopsis of things. There's quite a few different levels of builds, re-barrels, or barreled actions, simple whole packages with less expensive parts, on and on up to a full house open checkbook, open time frame, truly custom gun.

Let's face it, the open checkbook build guy, smith orders the parts, of course from mfg's only, to make the extra bucks on parts, rather than buying from, say Bugholes to expedite the process, and pays 50% up front deserves a few calls, like it or not. And I'd say he's entitled to a change or two, as long as the smith isn't out any coin. To me, this is a 6 month to a year project, at the most.

I think the build we're discussing here is where the customer ships all the necessary parts, specs it out, and no money has been exchanged.
I'm with the majority here on this one, unless the time frame has been over extended, you probably should be using your phone minutes on your wife, kids, family and friends, not the smith.

In reality, most smith's aren't renowned for their time management, yes there are exceptions. Personally, being in a gunsmith shop, when the phone is answered, unless the smith absolutely can't stand the person, the call is usually extended by the smith and not the customer.
Whether it's wooing a new customer, or reassuring an existing one, you always here about the latest exploits coming from the shop, 3450 fps out a 6x47 with a 22" barrel, or in 08 I built a rifle that took 3rd at nationals. What you don't here is that you haven't re-barreled the gun since, and you know it's still not in that configuration, or if he did it's somehow slipped from 3rd to 65th place! Or the military contract? Let's see some of those puppies???
I'm gonna hold off with the sympathy for the smith at this time.

 

[Phil1]

The psychology of the consumer...er...gun buyer.

- I want it now.
- I want my buying decision to be confirmed so i will continue to shop around for ideas and similar products so you as a seller better hold my hand till well after possession actually takes place.
- I want to discuss every harebrained idea that comes into my mind, so you need to make yourself available to discuss them.
- I have better ideas and knowledge of what works best than you do. Unless you can discuss and convince me otherwise.
- Other shooters, gunsmiths, internet posters, etc. know more than you as a gunsmith do. Unless you are prepared to discuss the ideas and convince me otherwise. Otherwise see above.
- I paid money so you should make yourself available according to my schedule.
- I will change my mind and regardless of how many times I change it it should not cost me another cent.Or take any more time to deliver the product.
- I am the only customer that matters. Regardless of who came before or will come after.
- Be prepared to be polite with me at all times and show endless patience because I'm such an important customer.
- Keep in mind that if any of the above is not satisfactory I will badmouth you on the inter-web.
- Keep in mind if I still can't shoot after receiving your product. I will badmouth you on the inter-web.

 

[scharfschutze762]

Its the same people who have a rolodex of numbers to call on a daily basis to have their ass kissed wheter it be cars, bikes, or whatever else their hobby that month is and they continue to bitch after they recieve their product or just call to bullshit like they are part of an exclusive club. What they dont realize realize is what they are buying is the same thing an average guy busting his ass to make ends meet is also buying as an investment. The big names mentioned have a long waiting list because of their reputation of building them right the first time and consistent quality. Seriously If you want to be catered to then maybe you should have Holland and Holland build your shit, fly you over and offer you a cigar and scotch and a handjob. Or go to your local lazy fuck gun hack smith who tells the whole world he does better work than GAP even though his work are all boomerangs with fucked up chambers,threads, crooked action truing or not even done at all for that matter, shit bedding job ect ect, but hey at least you can shoot the shit with him everyday and badmouth every other gunsmith.

 

[Asperly Aimless]

Realistic expectations?

I expect the gun to be everything it was advertised to be. I send my money with a letter that has all my contact info and a note for the gunsmith to give me a ring/email if something earth shattering occurs.

I've got other guns to shoot while mine is built. Order a set of consecutive serial number SAA revolvers with engraving and custom sites. Then you can talk about a wait!!!!

I just don't get it. I pick reputable builders, send off my money and any parts, and sit back and wait. Most reputable builders of anything are pretty close to their timelines.

You can expedite the process by buying all the parts yourself from places that have the items in stock, but you still have to wait in line. Just the nature of the beast and always well worth it in the end.