Realistic Expectations?

[JDBraddy]

Hi,
I'm new here, guess I'm kind of an intermediate shooter, I've been shooting for years, tried many different games from 3 position smallbore to USPSA/IDPA to Highpower to Skeet/Sporting Clays. Have never really excelled at any of them, but I love to shoot! Lately I've been re-discovering rifle shooting. My equipment is nothing special. I have three AR's, a CLE-DCM upper with RRA lower, lightweight 16" A2 carbine 1in9 twist with RRA lower, and a DPMS flat-top upper with 20" 1in8 twist stainless fluted barrel, an old PWA lower, and an old Weaver V series 4-16X40AO scope. I'd like to get a little better with them. I reload on an old Dillon 550b. I gave up on the Weidners budget bullets and tried some 77gr SMK's over 24gr of Varget, much better but my 1in9 twist carbine wouldn't stabilize them, so loaded up some Nosler 69gr over the 24.5gr of Varget, and that seems to group pretty well in all three. After several trips to the range, and several hundred rounds, I can do about as well at 200 and 300 with open sights as I can with the scope, and 4-6" groups at 300yds seem to be about as well as I can do with any consistancy. Now, I smile and try to be supportive and helpfull to the guys who come to the range with the gunshow special, you know the Stag-Arms carbine with the $30 red-dot and 15lbs of crap hanging off the forearm, who sed three hundred rounds downrange and go "Wow, I hit it! Twice!" but then I get humbled when two police snipers show up with supressed, custom built rifles, and $4000 scopes, and start calling their shots on 3/4" Target pasters at 300yds! Now, granted, my kit ain't nothing special, but I'd like to be able to do a little better with what I got, or consider minor equipment modifications or changes that will help get me there. I just don't have $5K spend on new gear, and am not sure I could really make the most of it, if I did. What can I realisticly expect from the gear I've got, and how do I make the most of it? Advice and suggestions welcome!

 

[Sgt.Henry]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Dang Man, Paragraphs!

Just Kidding and welcome to the Hide, if there is one thing we aren't short on it's advice

 

[AtOne]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Spend a few bucks on professional training instead of new gear.
In the long run it will be money well spent !
Here's a great place to start.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=997161#Post997161

 

[Rarebreed93]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Welcome, my advice is read, read, read, it's the Indian, not the bow.

 

[2clicks]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Fwiw rock river 20" freefloated AR Burris FTR 3-12 1-8 twist 6-7 inch groups @600 & I'm pretty sure I can do better I need to do a ladder test & fine tune the load to the rifle. SMK 69's imr4895.
I can get 3/4-1" at 300 with any of my 3 stock remington 700's maybe u could off an AR and try out the bolt action scene.

 

[javi_559]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

I agree... READ as much as u can!

 

[climbinbrandon]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Paragraphs, yes, please. All of the advice so far is correct in my experience.

Next time you're out at the range, and someone like the police snipers or any skilled shooter shows up, politely and between iterations, ask them if they would mind watching you throw a few down range and critique your technique. A skilled shooter will be able to identify any problems in your technique and point you in the right direction for correcting them. Most shooters will jump at the opportunity to offer advice. It makes us feel good inside.

Depending on how experienced your coach is, you should see an immediate and dramatic improvement in your grouping. If not, keep applying what your coach says. After a while, you'll figure out what works for you. Precision shooting is something that requires much practice and is a highly perishable skill. Definitely not like riding a bike.

I would also suggest learning to use and keeping a data book. I understand there are plenty of posts and articles on the Hide concerning data books. Tracking your shots will put you on an accelerated curve of improvement. I'm sure you will also find it encouraging to track the progress that I'm sure you will be making.

Good luck, and happy shooting.

Brandon

 

[JDBraddy]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Found this group in my area. http://www.southtexasshooting.org/index_temp.html
It looks like they have a 50rnd Highpower practice match scheduled tomarrow morning. I'll grab my gear and go check them out. I'm sure I'll be able to find someone at a highpower match, who can give me a few pointers!

 

[Shooter45]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Welcome to the Hide. There is a lot of experience here, and I would agree with the reading. Read all you can on here. Here's a site to get started:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=237232#Post237232

 

[Erud]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Highpower is a great place to go. In my opinion, it's about the best way for a regular civilian to build solid shooting fundamentals that will transfer to any style of shooting. Learn to shoot well with a sling and irons and shooting with a scope and bipod will feel like cheating. Your CLE upper should be well capable of hanging with many custom bolt guns, as far as accuracy is concerned.

Good luck,
Erik

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

What you can reasonably expect is the bullet will always go in the direction the barrel is pointed. Knowing where the barrel is pointed can get a shooter a good hit in any condition, and at any target/distance to which the bullet can get to nose-on, when the shooter properly points the rifle with consistent sight alignment, and pulls the trigger using smooth trigger control from a steady position. Practicing to perfect the position, when preceded by a basis of understanding for the fundamentals, can help any shooter who has the desire, reach the highest plateaus.

 

[JDBraddy]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Ok, I've been reading everything I can, I hooked up with both a local Highpower club, and Sihloette club, shot matches with both, picked up pointers and advice where I could, made contacts with master and high-master shooters, as well as a couple of accuracy gunsmiths. I have been despite everything I said above I've been toying with the idea of wanting to build a .308 bolt gun. I've been trying to figure out what I can sell to raise more money. I borrowed a Rem 700 SPS with a Harris bipod from a neighbor, mounted a Weaver V-16, loaded some 168gr SMK's way out long, on top of 43gr of Varget, went to the range today and shot a group you could cover with a dime at 100yds, and it opened up to quarter size at 200yds. Now I really want one! I went to a local gunshop and told them what I was looking for, and the sucked me right in! They showed me their "Police Sniper" package, a new 24" Remington R5, pre-fitted with one of two differnet styles of supressor, and a harris bipod for just under $3000. Fill out a simple Trust Questionare, pay $500 up front, $250 goes to set up a trust, and $250 for the Class III tax stamp, there will be about a six month wait for the paperwork to go through, during wich time you can be making payments toward the balance, wile the rifle and supressor are on "layaway". Just add a scope & mount and you're ready to go! I'm sure folks here can probably tell me how to find a better deal, but they sure make it sound easy! Now I can't stop thinking about it! HELP!!!

 

[taseal]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Honest to god truth... Do you really need a rifle like that?

Buy a .308 R700 R5 for close to 1000.

Spend 1500 on quality glass like the new swfa ffp hd coming out, and 500 on misc like bipod, scope rings base etc and you have a very nice rifle.

Unless you need a suppressor for whatever reason.

That's my 2 cents. I just spent 2k on a rifle myself and looking to get into long distance shooting myself. I started with a used .30-06 and changed the stock, added dbm, nice scope, rings base etc and I'm right at 1800 and that's with a regular hunting barrel

 

[JDBraddy]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Honest to God truth, No, don't have any need for a supressor, or any of this stuff. I'm not military or law enforcement. We don't even have a range in the area longer than 500yds, and I already have an AR that will shoot that farr. So we're talking strictly about wants here, not needs.

 

[taseal]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Of course you get what you want sir,

You did say you don't have the budget for a 5k rifle, but you're buying a regular r700 with nothing but a 5r barrel and a suppressor for 3k. With a decent glass and misc equipment, you just hit your 5k mark.

That's all I'm trying to say. Please don't take it the wrong way

Perhaps you were not saying you wanted to get that, but what a deal that was?

 

[isaactc]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

As a newbie myself, a I am certainly not qualified to make suggestions, but I followed advice from friends here on the Hide. I bought a Savage 10fcp Mcmillan and added a Vortex Viper 6.5-20X50 on good rings and base, Then I had my local gunsmith glass bed it and add pillar bedding and an adjustable but plate. Total cost $2,000. This rifle shoots 168 and 175 SMK's much better than I am capable of and it will be my "learnig gun" for a long while. Good luck with your search.

 

[JDBraddy]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Ah, we just misunderstood eachother, I'm not gonna buy the thing. Hell, I was just unemployed for a month, and have just started a new job. It sure was a sweet daydream though! I'll do a lot more looking and daydreaming before I slap down a deposit. My big problem is too many choices, not enough experience. I haven't seen or shot enough of what's available to have a very good idea of exactly what I really want yet. Once I figure that out, then I can figure out if/how I can pay for it.

At some point, I may decide a stock Rem R5 with a nice scope and bipod are enough for me, or decide to go for broke and have a full-blown custom built. I don't know yet. Nothing is really beyond my reach, if I'm determined enough. I could afford a 3K-5K gun, if I want it bad enough to hold out, save for months, sell stuff, and do without untill I can afford it. That's what I'm doing right now, but over the years, I've learned several truths.

1)Daydreaming about wich gun you want next, is in someways better than actually getting one. Once you spend the money, the daydream is over!

2)I am more likely to regret just settling for something, than I am, holding out for what I really want.

3)The cheaper option, usually isn't.

4)No matter what you end up with, something better will always come along.

5)At some point, you just have to pick one and use it!

My goals in the mean time are to make due as long as I can, save up as much as I can, and learn enough from you guys and others to make the best decision I can, untill the time comes for me to pick one and use it. Many local shooters advised me to get with Mark Farr of http://tumbleweedsrifles.com/ who builds rifles for a majority of the local F-Class and Silhouette competators.

 

[taseal]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

you could always get a used Remington 700 for like 300 bucks, and then put a Bushnell 3200 10x on it, and have a real nice bolt action for like 500 bucks. won't break the bank and it'll def shoot nicely. when you have the money you can upgrade as you go.

 

[lightman]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

It doe's not hurt to dream,it's what keeps us going.Most of us did not start off with the rig that we have now,we started with less and upgraded and improved.Why not buy a used rifle,put a good set of rings and bases on it,and,an inexpensive scope.Learn to shoot with this rifle,and learn to reload quality ammo.Then upgrade barrels,stocks,and scopes as you can.Good luck with your choices and your new job. Pete

 

[flyrodder]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

A couple of suggestions, mostly following what has already been said. Spend a lot of time reading and working with what you have. Improvement is improvement, whether it is shrinking 2 MOA groups to 1 MOA, or 1/2 MOA to 1/4 MOA. You can tweak and tinker with the rifle and the ammo, so there are a lot of variables and you want to only change one at a time.

I would also suggest looking at a rimfire for practice. In addition to being cheaper to buy and shoot, you can learn a lot using a much shorter range and, with essentially no recoil, you can learn about follow through and technique. 22 lr is a very good introduction to "rainbow" shooting - 17 HMR is probably too flat to help as much.

For centerfire, I have had great luck with Savage rifles - very good accuracy at great prices, and lots of aftermarket parts available. I bought 2 Savage Axis (Axii?) rifles for my sons to celebrate their first successful deer hunts at $300 each, and shot 3-round groups as small as 1/2" with hand loads and the original 7-lb triggers (they now have $85 Rifle Basix triggers at 3.5 lbs).

Shooting suppressed is great fun, but at the cost of a decent rifle or decent glass (or a range finder) I suggest you postpone that.

Zak Smith at DemigodLLC has some very good introductory articles on gear and techniques.

 

[HillbillyfromAL]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

I'd suggest going to a different gun shop. If you've paid for the rifle you don't have to wait for it just because it's threaded for a suppressor. I'd say if you wanted a suppressor get the Remington SPS AAC edition, it's got a 1 in 10 twist rate and 5/8x24 threaded barrel. Then get a good scope and upgrade stuff as you go. Those rifles can be found for less than 700 bucks, and they are usually sub MOA.

 

[deadnbrkn84]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillbillyfromAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd suggest going to a different gun shop. If you've paid for the rifle you don't have to wait for it just because it's threaded for a suppressor. I'd say if you wanted a suppressor get the Remington SPS AAC edition, it's got a 1 in 10 twist rate and 5/8x24 threaded barrel. Then get a good scope and upgrade stuff as you go. Those rifles can be found for less than 700 bucks, and they are usually sub MOA.</div></div>

+1 on that rifle. I own one and with reloads its a really accurate gun. I paid $629 at my local shop for it too. Then spent $230 on a seekins base and rings, $100 on a harris bipod, and $850 on a 4-16 viper pst ffp. All in all a great little package at $1800. It can still shoot better then I can

 

[JDBraddy]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

Just how much does the shorter barrel lengths affect .308? I've been looking at a lot of the Remington SPS tactical models, 20" barrel, their standard SPS Varment model is a 26" and the r5 and SPS-AAC are 24", now I like having the option of shooting longer heavier style bullets, and know you loose velocity, but gain "Handiness" with every inch of tube length, so the faster twist and slightly shorter 24" tubes of the r5 and SPS-AAC appeal to me, but locally they seem to be few and far between, and I have never seen a used one for sale. However, I see SPS Tacticals and SPS Varments everywhere I go, both new and used, so since most of my shooting will be under 500yds, with only an occasional trip to a range where I might be able to shoot to 1000 say a couple times a year, would I really be giving up much realisticly in terms of Velocity and the longer heavier bullets, if I where to find a deal on a used SPS tactical with the shorter 20" 1 in 12 twist tube?

 

[scotharr]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

JDBraddy, based on your posts, I would strongly recommend you get yourself a Savage rifle. They shoot lights out consistently and provide the absolute best bang for the buck. Go to any long-range match and you will see plenty of Savages on the line. This recommendation comes from someone who doesn't own a single Savage. I am lucky enough to own a few custom rifles, but you don't give up a thing to me with a factory Savage action with an accutrigger.

Here's some pretty samples:
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/10FCPHS
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/43532

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/12%20FTR
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/12%20BENCH%20REST

 

[i_rep]

Re: Realistic Expectations?

If 500 is all you got to play with currently....and decide if you want the possibility of a can then the AAC is the way to go. If not the SPS tactical, or a Savage 10FP.

The AAC has a 1:10 twist...it will be like your AR's....can shoot 155's but it will like the heavier stuff 168, 175, 190, 200, 208's.

600-700 bucks then later just look for a stock upgrade.....then later maybe a DBM (detachable bottom metal) to use mags.

It a step by step process and 20" is plenty to go way on out past 500 ..... 1000 is no problem either.

Hard to outgrow that system. You can do the same with a Savage, just not as many choices and ability to buy used stuff when someone is switching. Remington stuff is so much more available.

Then just buy some quality ammo and shoot it.