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Re: Rearview mirror? 2
Heavy, no choice:
When I first hit SE Asia, being the new kid on the block, I was given the '60, carried a 50 rd assult belt on the gun, and another 400 rounds. Plus a claymore, 4 M-26s, two smokes and one Willy Peter. Radio battery (for PRC 25), Plus personal gear which consisted of 7 days rations (c-rats), puncho, puncho liner. Extra socks, first aid pouches. Bayonet (started with an entrenching tool but that didn't last long). 45, 3 mags, plus box of 50 rounds. 5 canteens of water. Toilet articles, small Bible, and a couple beers staying cool at the bottom of my ruch, cleaning gear w/LSA.
Now days, since I can, I go light, real light.
Heavy, no choice:
When I first hit SE Asia, being the new kid on the block, I was given the '60, carried a 50 rd assult belt on the gun, and another 400 rounds. Plus a claymore, 4 M-26s, two smokes and one Willy Peter. Radio battery (for PRC 25), Plus personal gear which consisted of 7 days rations (c-rats), puncho, puncho liner. Extra socks, first aid pouches. Bayonet (started with an entrenching tool but that didn't last long). 45, 3 mags, plus box of 50 rounds. 5 canteens of water. Toilet articles, small Bible, and a couple beers staying cool at the bottom of my ruch, cleaning gear w/LSA.
Now days, since I can, I go light, real light.
Re: Rearview mirror? 2
You take what you're told and that's usually too much to add in any extra anyway. Now that I can pack what I want, I'm with Kraig and try my best to stay as light as possible, but it's always a continual process of trying to balance weight with mission essential equipment. A lot of guys these days are rollin' out in vehicles which allows you to bring the sink. But when your walking, packing extra stuff you 'think' you'll need...when in doubt, throw it out.
Edited to add: Looking at this objectively it doesn't really matter whether you bring too little or too much your first time out. You can only learn from experience what you will or won't need, and no amount of packing lists, suggestions, or reading will give you the perfect load out. What's important is to take what you absolutely need, take a little extra on the important stuff (water, ammo, batteries, etc.), and take as little as possible of the creature comforts.
You take what you're told and that's usually too much to add in any extra anyway. Now that I can pack what I want, I'm with Kraig and try my best to stay as light as possible, but it's always a continual process of trying to balance weight with mission essential equipment. A lot of guys these days are rollin' out in vehicles which allows you to bring the sink. But when your walking, packing extra stuff you 'think' you'll need...when in doubt, throw it out.
Edited to add: Looking at this objectively it doesn't really matter whether you bring too little or too much your first time out. You can only learn from experience what you will or won't need, and no amount of packing lists, suggestions, or reading will give you the perfect load out. What's important is to take what you absolutely need, take a little extra on the important stuff (water, ammo, batteries, etc.), and take as little as possible of the creature comforts.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Rearview mirror? 2
Most guys do take the sink the first time, but we were allowed free range. Our gear was the H web style with a butt pack. I always went lite on chow an potable compared to others for the same gig. Heavy on mag's, bang, battery's, extra antenna & mike, W/P, an a smoke or two. As I progressed into ever smaller units and their elements, the load outs became smaller, an smaller.
I found comfort, breeds comfort, but you fight harder an smarter when you have been miserable just prior to. For me it was better to be whinny about snivel, than ran/beat into the ground from being a pack mule. The old adage, If/when you die, we are splitting up your gear, holds a lot of water. We came back more than once geared like the other side. Then again we could pick an chose when an were, it was never left up to them.
Most guys do take the sink the first time, but we were allowed free range. Our gear was the H web style with a butt pack. I always went lite on chow an potable compared to others for the same gig. Heavy on mag's, bang, battery's, extra antenna & mike, W/P, an a smoke or two. As I progressed into ever smaller units and their elements, the load outs became smaller, an smaller.
I found comfort, breeds comfort, but you fight harder an smarter when you have been miserable just prior to. For me it was better to be whinny about snivel, than ran/beat into the ground from being a pack mule. The old adage, If/when you die, we are splitting up your gear, holds a lot of water. We came back more than once geared like the other side. Then again we could pick an chose when an were, it was never left up to them.
Re: Rearview mirror? 2
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Luke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lot of guys these days are rollin' out in vehicles which allows you to bring the sink. </div></div> This but we still stayed pretty light on the comfort crap outside of tobacco. Change of uniform, couple shirts and skivvies, snivel gear, lots of socks and sleeping bag carried me through Afghanistan for three months in the winter. No tents or anything large but you better believe we loved our electric razor and power inverter. That Norelco and one spare set of blades lasted 12 men for three months to keep the SgtMaj happy.
I was mech'd up for Haiti, helo'd directly into the US Embassy for Liberia, and was CAAT with my own trucks for Afghanistan so weight was never really an issue for me. My main load always fit in my ruck for the times we had to go out on foot, but other than short range foot patrols in Haiti and Afghanistan we didn't do much walking.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Luke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lot of guys these days are rollin' out in vehicles which allows you to bring the sink. </div></div> This but we still stayed pretty light on the comfort crap outside of tobacco. Change of uniform, couple shirts and skivvies, snivel gear, lots of socks and sleeping bag carried me through Afghanistan for three months in the winter. No tents or anything large but you better believe we loved our electric razor and power inverter. That Norelco and one spare set of blades lasted 12 men for three months to keep the SgtMaj happy.
I was mech'd up for Haiti, helo'd directly into the US Embassy for Liberia, and was CAAT with my own trucks for Afghanistan so weight was never really an issue for me. My main load always fit in my ruck for the times we had to go out on foot, but other than short range foot patrols in Haiti and Afghanistan we didn't do much walking.
Re: Rearview mirror? 2
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Change of uniform, couple shirts and skivvies, snivel gear, lots of socks and sleeping bag carried me through Afghanistan for three months in the winter. No tents or anything large but you better believe we loved our electric razor and power inverter</div></div>
Hmmmmmm.................I think I went to the wrong war.
Oh Well, Say what you want about Vietnam, but we had better music.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Change of uniform, couple shirts and skivvies, snivel gear, lots of socks and sleeping bag carried me through Afghanistan for three months in the winter. No tents or anything large but you better believe we loved our electric razor and power inverter</div></div>
Hmmmmmm.................I think I went to the wrong war.
Oh Well, Say what you want about Vietnam, but we had better music.
Re: Rearview mirror? 2
When I hit SE Asia, we went in light.
M14, six mags of 20, one change of Utilities and skivvies, an extra (second packed) pair of socks, 1 day's Charlie rations, two canteens, a bullet dressing, a field blanket roll, all carried in and on a haversack and rifle belt.
We were not issued flack gear for several weeks. A sea bag with additional personal gear, mostly Utilities, extra boots and such, followed once the supply chain got set up and we had built some semi-permanent shelter (32ft hardback tents).
At no time were we tasked with carrying more than what I'd estimate as 50lb, including helmet and flack jacket.
I look at the loadout contemporary personnel are obliged to carry and conclude that the mule is not gone from the Army, they just streamlned them to get by on two legs these days.
I think it's a flat out miracle that American offensive personnel can accomplish anything militarily useful and still manage to move well enough to stay alive in this far more hostile contemporary counterinsurgency environment.
I think that the issue at the core of this situation is a major corruption of the basic combat mission's goal.
I think that the folks who read the maps and issue the orders have lost sight of what combat forces are good at and what they should be doing; as opposed to what they are actually doing these days.
IMHO, the name of the gremlin is 'collateral damage'.
Used to be, the term wasn't very well known, and while regrettable, was an inevitible fact of life where warfare is concerned.
Now, the concept is an overarching impediment upon the overall mission, and has acquired a life of its own. I admire Schwartzkopf, but I also think he paid too much attention to the press and the civilian leadership on this subject. They were wrong to harp on this aspect, and he was wrong to humor them. A faulty public relations initiative was allowed to pollute the aims and goals of our miltary's motivations.
It is the inevitible consequence of a core governmental policy where ultimate responsibility is universally, professionally, and so very artistically shirkedl and this policy has evolved rtofall under the uniquely deceptive term of 'polictical correctness'.
It's dead wrong, and it's leaving a multitude of American warfighters dead and maimed in its trail.
Rather than fight a war and put the responsibility for avoiding civilian casualties in the shoulders of those civilians themselves, favoring their adoption of sensible and conservative behavior that recognizes that war is not safe for children and other living things; the military authority unswervingly demands that the warfighter bend over completely backwards and look for civilian asses to kiss, foreign and domestic. Placing their own miliary agendas a distant second to face saving, warfighters face killing restriction upon the primary warfighting interests and concerns.
Contingencies must be accomodated which have no place on any battlefield, historic or modern. This inevitibly imposes loads, physical, moral, and doctrinal, on the modern warfighter.
War is difficult and expensive enough, without our command policy mutating into something both ineffectual and smarmy beyond the belief of old warriors like my own generation.
It needs to change, and in my opinion; the direction should be back toward more reasonable goals and effective methodologies.
There's a difference betweem a soldier, a cop, and a diplomat; or at least there should be.
Used to be, a hostile population had genuine fear of having the USA turn its military's attention in their direction. I don't see that as their first consideration any more these days; and dangit, that's a very real problem.
I would not be surprised if the Russians were laughing at us behind their hands, and commending themsleves for managing to get us to shoot ourselves in our own foot. It doesn't matter what our force is on paper when our leadership spends most of its time trying to figure out myrad new ways to blunt the sharp end of the spear.
Whatever we get from now on in; we asked for it. Between reactionary terror paranoia and feelgood military policy, America the Strong, Brave, and Free has been transformed into Chicken Little on poultry growth hormone.
Greg
When I hit SE Asia, we went in light.
M14, six mags of 20, one change of Utilities and skivvies, an extra (second packed) pair of socks, 1 day's Charlie rations, two canteens, a bullet dressing, a field blanket roll, all carried in and on a haversack and rifle belt.
We were not issued flack gear for several weeks. A sea bag with additional personal gear, mostly Utilities, extra boots and such, followed once the supply chain got set up and we had built some semi-permanent shelter (32ft hardback tents).
At no time were we tasked with carrying more than what I'd estimate as 50lb, including helmet and flack jacket.
I look at the loadout contemporary personnel are obliged to carry and conclude that the mule is not gone from the Army, they just streamlned them to get by on two legs these days.
I think it's a flat out miracle that American offensive personnel can accomplish anything militarily useful and still manage to move well enough to stay alive in this far more hostile contemporary counterinsurgency environment.
I think that the issue at the core of this situation is a major corruption of the basic combat mission's goal.
I think that the folks who read the maps and issue the orders have lost sight of what combat forces are good at and what they should be doing; as opposed to what they are actually doing these days.
IMHO, the name of the gremlin is 'collateral damage'.
Used to be, the term wasn't very well known, and while regrettable, was an inevitible fact of life where warfare is concerned.
Now, the concept is an overarching impediment upon the overall mission, and has acquired a life of its own. I admire Schwartzkopf, but I also think he paid too much attention to the press and the civilian leadership on this subject. They were wrong to harp on this aspect, and he was wrong to humor them. A faulty public relations initiative was allowed to pollute the aims and goals of our miltary's motivations.
It is the inevitible consequence of a core governmental policy where ultimate responsibility is universally, professionally, and so very artistically shirkedl and this policy has evolved rtofall under the uniquely deceptive term of 'polictical correctness'.
It's dead wrong, and it's leaving a multitude of American warfighters dead and maimed in its trail.
Rather than fight a war and put the responsibility for avoiding civilian casualties in the shoulders of those civilians themselves, favoring their adoption of sensible and conservative behavior that recognizes that war is not safe for children and other living things; the military authority unswervingly demands that the warfighter bend over completely backwards and look for civilian asses to kiss, foreign and domestic. Placing their own miliary agendas a distant second to face saving, warfighters face killing restriction upon the primary warfighting interests and concerns.
Contingencies must be accomodated which have no place on any battlefield, historic or modern. This inevitibly imposes loads, physical, moral, and doctrinal, on the modern warfighter.
War is difficult and expensive enough, without our command policy mutating into something both ineffectual and smarmy beyond the belief of old warriors like my own generation.
It needs to change, and in my opinion; the direction should be back toward more reasonable goals and effective methodologies.
There's a difference betweem a soldier, a cop, and a diplomat; or at least there should be.
Used to be, a hostile population had genuine fear of having the USA turn its military's attention in their direction. I don't see that as their first consideration any more these days; and dangit, that's a very real problem.
I would not be surprised if the Russians were laughing at us behind their hands, and commending themsleves for managing to get us to shoot ourselves in our own foot. It doesn't matter what our force is on paper when our leadership spends most of its time trying to figure out myrad new ways to blunt the sharp end of the spear.
Whatever we get from now on in; we asked for it. Between reactionary terror paranoia and feelgood military policy, America the Strong, Brave, and Free has been transformed into Chicken Little on poultry growth hormone.
Greg
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Rearview mirror? 2
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh Well, Say what you want about Vietnam, but we had better music. </div></div>
To CCR's Bad Moon Rising,
Hope you got your shit together, cause it will be very bad weather.
Don't pack your ammo too tight, Charles's bringing an AK to the fight,
Keep your claymore real handy, I'll bring a battle-star for Andy.
Hang on, Spooky will be flying very soon, he will piss fire from the sky, an moon.
Don't go out tonight, cause Charlie will take your life.
There's an ambush on the right,...
Who'll stop the rain, Have you ever seen the rain, Fortunate Son, Run through the Jungle,...roots every one,...
Then you throw in some John Prine, damn that's going back,...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh Well, Say what you want about Vietnam, but we had better music. </div></div>
To CCR's Bad Moon Rising,
Hope you got your shit together, cause it will be very bad weather.
Don't pack your ammo too tight, Charles's bringing an AK to the fight,
Keep your claymore real handy, I'll bring a battle-star for Andy.
Hang on, Spooky will be flying very soon, he will piss fire from the sky, an moon.
Don't go out tonight, cause Charlie will take your life.
There's an ambush on the right,...
Who'll stop the rain, Have you ever seen the rain, Fortunate Son, Run through the Jungle,...roots every one,...
Then you throw in some John Prine, damn that's going back,...
Re: Rearview mirror? 2
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh Well, Say what you want about Vietnam, but we had better music. </div></div>
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uAE6Il6OTcs&ob=av2e"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uAE6Il6OTcs&ob=av2e" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IrJAwCBbnuc"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IrJAwCBbnuc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
I'm not saying Vietnam had bad music, because a good portion of my collection is from then, but there is SOME music worth listening to.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh Well, Say what you want about Vietnam, but we had better music. </div></div>
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uAE6Il6OTcs&ob=av2e"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uAE6Il6OTcs&ob=av2e" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IrJAwCBbnuc"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IrJAwCBbnuc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
I'm not saying Vietnam had bad music, because a good portion of my collection is from then, but there is SOME music worth listening to.
Re: Rearview mirror? 2
...wait for it...
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CABCIseO8Zo"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CABCIseO8Zo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
Still gives me chills...; and other things, too...
...wait for it...
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CABCIseO8Zo"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CABCIseO8Zo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
Still gives me chills...; and other things, too...
