Gunsmithing rebarreling an already trued action? ?

[JS624]

Hey guys I'm potentially getting a 700 sa on Friday that has been blueprinted/trued and the bolt fluted then the factory barrel was put back on it. My plan is to get a 6.5cm barrel for it. My question is Will I need to have the action blueprinted/trued up again. When the new barrel is installed or can the new barrel just be threaded and put on? How will this affect accuracy if at all? Is there anything else I should consider or be concerned about. Thanks in advance.

 

[Sonic Crack]

You need to find out if the action threads were opened up, and to what diameter. If the factory barrel was taken off, the action was "trued", and the untouched factory barrel screwed right back in..... Then the action was not trued.

 

[JS624]

Good to know thankyou. He supposedly has all receipts for work performed. So hopefully I'll find my answer there.

 

[eddieharren]

"if the action was trued and the factory barrel screwed back on...then the action was not trued." This statement is a matter of opinion and not proven fact. Not all smiths overcut the action threads when trueing an action.

 

[EasyGravy]

^^^^ as everyone stated. After action is trues the origional barrel threads would be too small. Sounds like someones pullin a fasty on you. Be cautious

 

[Bill Larson]

NO............

 

[19Scout77]

"if the action was trued and the factory barrel screwed back on...then the action was not trued." This statement is a matter of opinion and not proven fact. Not all smiths overcut the action threads when trueing an action.

Once again a nugget of reason surrounded by giant chunks of conjecture and speculation. Once more, Eddie is correct.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

"if the action was trued and the factory barrel screwed back on...then the action was not trued." This statement is a matter of opinion and not proven fact. Not all smiths overcut the action threads when trueing an action.

+1 Then the question is how loose is too loose and at the other end of the spectrum when is tight too tight?

 

[Bill Larson]

"if the action was trued and the factory barrel screwed back on...then the action was not trued." This statement is a matter of opinion and not proven fact. Not all smiths overcut the action threads when trueing an action.

I don`t..... I first check the run out of threads with respect to bolt raceway..........

 

[rpk762]

The real question is this. When the factory barrel was put back on was any work done to it? I would think so.

To answer your question yes a new barrel will be easily fitted to your rifle. Your smith will need to make some measurements.

I have a 700vslh and it has the factory tube on it. I lost some length but after the work the smith said the threads were straight so he just did a clean-up pass on them. Now it is a solid half moa rifle with a factory tube on it.

 

[Mgordon]

Here is some information out of my machinist handbook.

1 1/16 x 16 TPI internal thread.
1.0625-16 2B thread.
Pitch Diameter Max 1.0219"
Min 1.0284" Difference .0065"

My point is if we assume that the internal threads on your action are on the smallest side (1.0219" pitch diameter) and if your barrel just happens to be on the largest side with a 3A 1.0219" pitch diameter, you will be removing more material than .0065" to clean out the runout from the receiver and your thread fit will be out of specification. Because there is not one governing body in the rifle building industry, any Joe off the street can put a sign up saying "Joe's custom gunsmithing" and can true actions and do barrel work to whatever his idea of it may be. I have seen a few different ways that people call truing an action.

-Machining a .699" rod with some 1.0625 x 16 threads on one end, its screwed into the receiver and then put between centers on a lathe and BAM, you just trued an action because you cut the face.
-Putting in some tapered bushings into the bolt raceway, inserting a piloted tap into the raceway and recut the receiver threads, BAM, that action has been trued!
-I have even seen actions where the lugs were lapped and somebody put lapping compound between the action face and barrel shoulder and spun the recoil lug around "lapping" them together. BAM, somebody trued that action right up.

Sure, you can probably take an action and "true" it like listed above and screw on a factory barrel and it may even headspace. If that the correct way of doing things??? Is that what a customer is paying for???

In my opinion, if you are not using some type of thread plug gauge to single point cut action threads to, you are just winging it. We true all of our Remington 700's to 1.080 x 16 TPI, we have plenty of thread gauges (ring and plug, go and no go) made up for all the actions we true and we are cutting threads that are to the specifications in Machinist Handbooks. Why pay somebody to cut threads that are not to any real specification, but rather each action has been "Trued" differently because there is not gauge set or measuring specification to be used???

 

[Mgordon]

One more thought. Today we received 5 barreled actions from a group of shooters who needed the muzzles threaded for a TBAC 30P-1 suppressor. The problem was they were already threaded by the original builders. It appears that the builders just threaded the 5/8 x 24 threads to a muzzle brake, all but one were too large for my class 3A go ring gauge to thread on, American Precision Arms "Little Bastard" brakes would not even thread on. It really sucks that these shooters are having to pay for muzzle threading twice. The ring gauge I have represents the largest possible thread within specification. Its the same thing with action truing. If you are not doing work that is to any real specification what are you paying for????

We built a rifle for customer who insisted that we send the barrel back to a suppressor manufacturer for threading because he wanted their "Guarantee" on the threads. We also have a guarantee that our work will be within spec and correct, but he wanted the suppressor manufacturer's guarantee. The suppressor manufacturer threaded the muzzle, they did not relieve the back of the thread next to the shoulder and just fit the threads to their oversized brake like it was some type of thread ring gauge. After they damaged the chamber threads by dropping the barrel, we got the barrel back, and BAM, the barrel came back with their "guaranteed" muzzle threads. The threads were so large I could not even get other muzzle brakes or suppressors to fit on the barrel let alone my ring gauge.

My whole point of both posts is that if you are going to have work done, and I don't even care who does it, but ask them what specification they are threading the barrel to, or how do they true their actions up and what their idea of action truing is, or how do they indicate a barrel in for chambering or barrel work. If somebody is truing actions, they should know what the new thread specifications are, if they do not, you are wasting your money most likely. Same thing with muzzle threads, if somebody is threading your barrel, and their current muzzle brake in hand fits, it does not mean its a correct thread within specifications.

Mark

 

[sakobob]

^^^^^^ well said!

 

[jonaddis84]

Well said Mark, you always know how to use your words so well. Here's an analogy to help. You take your engine in to be rebuilt after a valve craps out and scratches the cylinders all up. They slap new piston rings on it and send it back to you because it runs, and charge you for a full rebuild.

If the action was FULLY trued, then the factory barrel should not have been screwed back on there unless the barrel was set back past the shoulder. That is the only situation where that would be acceptable.

 

[eddieharren]

Still opinion and not proven fact. I have three Rem actions 2 700 and 1 722. All have been used in IBS score shooting for over 25 years. Between these 3 rifles and 2 different shooters there have been 11 National Championship awards, 5 World records and numerous State championship awards. Not one of these actions has had the threads cut oversize. This is proof enough for me.

 

[C&H PWS]

We build Authentic M40 rifles (M40A1, A3, and A5's) My partner Dave spent 26 years building these rifles in the Marine Corps as a 2112. Neither he, nor his men oversize the action threads for Marine Corps Sniper Rifles and we don't do it now.

Opinions will always vary on the definition of "Truing and Action" but in the end, the proof is in the pudding and shot group size and rifle performance is the only thing that can differentiate one build process from another and even that is subjective because the biggest variable in all of shooting is not the man who build the rifle or the processes that he used, but the ammo.

Buck

 

[Sonic Crack]

Still opinion and not proven fact.

Facts:
-SAC is one of the top shops in the country
-SAC trues actions by cutting action threads oversize
-SAC built rifles set records and win shooting competitions
-If your action was trued, but does not meet SAC specifications, SAC will not recognize your action as being trued

These are all proven facts. If thats not enough for you, I dont know what to tell ya

 

[Sonic Crack]

Opinions will always vary on the definition of "Truing and Action" but in the end, the proof is in the pudding and shot group size and rifle performance is the only thing that can differentiate one build process from another and even that is subjective because the biggest variable in all of shooting is not the man who build the rifle or the processes that he used, but the ammo.

Buck
View attachment 45963

Agreed, I would also say the shooter probably has the largest affect

 

[eddieharren]

Sonic, you do it your way. I do it my way. National championships and records both ways. Where's the proof?

I'll not argue the point any farther. AMF

 

[Sonic Crack]

You just answered your own question, then asked the same question again

 

[jonaddis84]

I dont think the debate is whether cutting the threads has a measurable effect on accuracy, its the fact that if you are going to do something, do it right. If you already have the action dialed in to cut the face and lugs, why not take an extra 15 minutes and cut the threads? At least then you know your action threads are to some standard, and not just the "dude" that happened to be threading at Remington that days standard (which, we all know, varies significantly from dude to dude).

This is similar to the argument over whether dialing a barrel in to 0.0002" of concentric actually has an effect on accuracy, it probably doesnt have an effect over one that was dialed to .001. But if you are going to do something, wouldnt you rather just do it right and not worry about an extra few minutes?

 

[LRI]

My response likely parallels the above. Since these threads like to regurgitate once a month anyway, why not regurgitate with the same answer expressed differently.


A Walmart wrist watch for $12.00

A Patek Nautilus starts at around $23,000.00. Both tell you what time it is.


Such is the same with this debate. For some, the X ring or a splash on a piece of AR500 is all that matters. For others, there's more to it. Neither is right or wrong till you step out of that perception.


SO, the argument becomes a mute point if both are generating an identical outcome.


UNLESS: (this is not directed towards anyone, just a blanket statement)

Your a fink who claims to be going through all these elaborate steps and measures to ensure things are "blueprinted", "accurized", "trued", "tuned", etc. . ., but your really not doing anything close to what you might be claiming. Then I hope you get everything coming to you once the sharks get a hold of you.

If a tap method works (I don't know, never tried it) then proudly claim it so and use ethical salesmanship to sell it. Sell the shit out of it and make a wheel barrel full of cash. Giggle all the way to the bank. Laugh and mock us retards who invest hundreds of thousands into exotic equipment to do what your doing with a Makita drill and $10 bucks worth of clover compound.

Competition is a good thing in commerce.

That is all.


C.

 

[jerseymike]

We do not touch the threads inside the action.

 

[Mgordon]

Not trying to get religious on you guys, but for me, when I read the Bible you either believe it all or you do not believe any of it. That being said, it is the same philosophy for rifle work. If we are going to accept any money from a customer for any service, we plan on doing our absolute best and everything in our power. Sure, there are plenty of rifles out there that are outstanding shooters and either have factory barrels or minimal work done to the action. I think this is where a great barrel can really make up for a lot. I'm a former Marine and I think its great that the Marine Corps can build rifles with out cutting receiver threads as long as it meets their performance requirements. With all that being said when it comes down to our company feeling good about serving the customer and delivering what we believe they are paying for, we will always do our best. So when a customer pays for action truing, we will dial everything the best we possibly can, single point cut everything and leave the best possible finish.

My argument is not about what it takes to get a rifle to shoot, there is way too many rifles out there that are shooters, some with all the odds stacked against them. My whole point and my only concern is when customers bring me an action that was "trued" and somebody accepted their money and lapped a massive taper in the lugs and did their best at machining the action face and were charged $150 to $200. Or a barrel was set back and made into an AI version of the existing chamber and the new reamer had a smaller neck and left a step in the neck area from the old chamber to the smaller reamer profile of the new chamber. There should be a cut and dry standard for rifle work out there. Like Chad mentioned, how many "action truing" threads are out there, but still there doesn't seem to be standard out there or clarity of what some services should be.

I'm not the kind of guy to get all hot and bothered, so I'm open to hear anybody and have adult conversational tone discussions.

Mark