Advanced Marksmanship Recoil Effects

[Sterling Shooter]

We all know about the effects of recoil, anticipation for it, and recovery from it; even fatigue; but, what about other effects. I've always thought recoil was something I needed to control. Now, I'm wondering about that. The other day I recognized my plot of calls right-in-there from a dry fire exercise superimposed to calls right-in-there from a live fire exercise. This made me consider rifle movement while the bullet is still in the bore may not be the from force I've attributed it to. Interestingly, the exercises were from the standing position, which requires a different zero than prone for the same distance. This counters my earlier observation and infers that recoil or some force from the bullet while still in the bore does have an effect, and that such effect becomes directional according to the manner in which it is controlled. It could, of course, have something to do with my perception of sight alignment, since I have more eye relief in the standing position than from prone.

I don't know that an understanding for this will lead to me shooting better, it may not be important, since proper follow through and adjustment of NPA, for whatever reason, has been shown to get a bullet where aimed. Nevertheless, I thought this was interesting.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Recoil Effects

I think it will. I think of bore transit time as the more significant portion of the recoil cycle, because it superimposes an aimpoint alteration at the time the bullet exits. It also presents the most significant period, however brief, when our own conscious and unconscious intervention can introduce inconsistencies to that aimpoint alteration.

In essence, imagine that when we hold an aimpoint, the barrel is never pointed exactly where it needs to be to put the bullet onto that aimpoint. Rather, it points to the starting pont in the recoil cycle that eventually results in the proper bore orientation at the time the bullet emerges from the uzzle.

Think of the body as the recoil absorber on a field gun. Differences in muscle tension correspond to changes in valving and dampening medium viscosity in the recoil cylinder.

The way to minimize dispersion due to those difference is, in my world, to become more consistent. I become more consistent by limiting/eliminating my own conscious and unconscious contributions to those inconsistencies.

Simply put, I relax as much as possible and let the gun find its own recoil path. Left to itself, it's likely to be far more consistent than any set of techniques I could concoct.

As for how this affects aimpoint and final resting point following recoil, I refer us all to LLs work on the subject.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Recoil Effects

What's interesting here is my zero for live fire, within the particular position, is same as dry fire. Until now, I thought my zero was accomodating recoil; and, therefore, recoil was creating the need to build an identical postion, form shot to shot, inorder for it to be consistent, and, thus connect to zero.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Recoil Effects

The simple correlation between dryfire zero and live zero does not demand that they don't accomodate recoil. It could be a simple coincidence, and it could also indicate that your individual position compensates for recoil particularly well.

The rifle <span style="font-style: italic">does</span> move during bore transit, but it may or may not move the bore axis out of line with the target. The more drop the stock has, the more likely the axis will become altered. The M-16 stock does a particularly good job of mediating muzzle flip.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Recoil Effects

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The simple correlation between dryfire zero and live zero does not demand that they don't accomodate recoil. It could be a simple coincidence, and it could also indicate that your individual position compensates for recoil particularly well.

The rifle <span style="font-style: italic">does</span> move during bore transit, but it may or may not move the bore axis out of line with the target. The more drop the stock has, the more likely the axis will become altered. The M-16 stock does a particularly good job of mediating muzzle flip.

Greg</div></div>

You said, "the rifle does move during bore taansit". O.K. that's what I'm accomodating, but does that movement have a name? Is it's name recoil? Others here, suggest, from hi-speed video that recoil does not begin until the bullet has cleared the bore. I think it begins when the trigger is pulled. But, discovery that dry fire calls right-in-there superimpose to live fire calls makes me wonder about it all. And, yes, I perceive the straight line axis is a big plus.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Recoil Effects

Yes, it's called recoil. Recoil has (at least) two phases.

The one takes place as the bullet accelerates down the bore and is equal and opposite the force expended in that process. Recoil proper begins as the bullet begins its motion. There are other preceding factors, but their effects are negligible.

The other occurs once the bullet clears the muzzle and is equal and opposite to the velocity and mass of the gasses exiting the bore, precisely the same as rocket thrust.

They are simply a sequential pair of phases within the recoil cycle.

Greg

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Recoil Effects

Sterling, each time I've commented on recoil vs POI I've made comments based on experience shooting long range pistols. They are very sensitive compared to a rifle and it's been a factor we've worked with and found interesting as to the results we get by slightly tweaking grip position, individual finger pressure on the grip, tension of the shoulder and suspended weight of our arm. It's amazing how small even a slight difference in something affects it.

Very interesting and always thought it also affected the rifle shooters in different positions but probably is not quite as critical and is not as noticeable to most shooters until you really get to a high level of skill.

Good points and something for everyone to think about. Maybe not as critical as some other points in learning to shoot a rifle very accurately at long range but still might be another small bit towards shrinking those groups down even more.

A few buddies that are very proficient with long range shooting have been able to use same settings for both standing and freestyle (bags,rests or bipod) by learning what caused them to have different POI from different positions. Like you or Greg mentioned it does seem to be the suspended weight or various differences in pressure exerted against the stock or grip. The movement caused by the recoil while the bullet is still in the barrel and the minute movement it causes is affected differently by factors I'm sure one of you can relate to others better than I can but it is there.

Topstrap

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Recoil Effects

In my attempts for zero displacement, I've realized that even miniscule position inconsistencies will preclude the desired result. All aspects regarding the rifle, shooter, and ground relationship need, it appears, to be perfect. And motor memory development seems to be the solution, since such minicule movement cannot be decerned by feel or other.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Recoil Effects

I have repeatedly referred to the rifle, ammo, shooter, and environment as 'the system'. Alterations to any one, or several, component(s) will result in an altered outcome.

Seriously, does it make sense to adhere to close standards making the rifle and ammo, if we allow the human portion to respond to recoil inconsistently?

I personally doubt that the human body can be successfully trained to overtly control recoil. To this end, I choose to depend on NPA and total relaxation. The less I try to do about recoil, the better I tend to handle it.

The corollary of this is that whenever I can sense muscle fatigue, my shooting has already started to go out the window.

Greg

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Recoil Effects

I agree, I have gotten to the point I view each shot after all alignment and positioning as going along for the ride. I just tend to ease up to the grip and do the least amount I have to when squeezing the trigger and riding the gun till it comes to a stop. We can't see hits or misses but the majority of the time when it goes off we can call a hit or miss and also tell the spotter where it went just by how it felt.

I wonder sometimes as shooters are learning to get better if they try to control it too much when trying to learn to see their hits or get that perfect hold. I'm sure it's possible when positioned correctly and letting the gun do what it wants to do naturally but trying to achieve the same thing by controlling the gun with your hold may be also causing slight variations in POI?

Sometimes it comes so easy for some shooters and others struggle to achieve the same thing. Just another part of the road we travel in our attempt to become a better shooter. It's amazing how much we've learned from this site that we can transfer over to the lil guns we shoot. Different but the same.

Topstrap

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Recoil Effects

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree, I have gotten to the point I view each shot after all alignment and positioning as going along for the ride. I just tend to ease up to the grip and do the least amount I have to when squeezing the trigger and riding the gun till it comes to a stop. We can't see hits or misses but the majority of the time when it goes off we can call a hit or miss and also tell the spotter where it went just by how it felt.

I wonder sometimes as shooters are learning to get better if they try to control it too much when trying to learn to see their hits or get that perfect hold. I'm sure it's possible when positioned correctly and letting the gun do what it wants to do naturally but trying to achieve the same thing by controlling the gun with your hold may be also causing slight variations in POI?

Sometimes it comes so easy for some shooters and others struggle to achieve the same thing. Just another part of the road we travel in our attempt to become a better shooter. It's amazing how much we've learned from this site that we can transfer over to the lil guns we shoot. Different but the same.

Topstrap</div></div>

These words: grip, elbows, non-firing hand, stockweld, and butt to shoulder, which identify the factors of a steady position, are what I think separate winners from others. That's to say, for those who build their positions considering the importance for perfecting it, the result can be close to zero displacement. With due respect to position building, using the Service Rifle, I've shot twenty round for record groups where as many as 17 rounds have hunkered into nice half minute groups. It's only fatigue which seems to preclude better. My brain just can't, so far, handle the perfection concept, but I'm working on it.

 

[Headgear]

Re: Recoil Effects

I haven't been shooting long range that long but I have noticed "finally" that different pressure on the rifle from shot to shot gives different poi's. You can mount the rifle the same every time and have perfect positions and NPA but after achieving all of that and have just a little bit more down pressure from your cheek on the comb for instance than you did the last shot, and the poi is going to change.

It seems to take an extremely small pressure difference in one of many different areas to cause a misplaced impact. Why some people have more ability to do this naturally is beyond me but I do believe that the rest of us can learn what comes natural to them.

Great thread!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Recoil Effects

I think that while developing a mantra of pressures and grips can be made to work, they are a complcation being imposed on something that should be simpler. The idea of setting up then going along for the ride more closely decribes my ideal. To me, I should be able to set up, relax utterly, reopen my eyes, and the sights are still dead-on. I have more than once set up, and while waiting for the command sequence to precede, have fallen asleep.

For me, from that point it should be about getting from that stage to a sear release without disturbing the alignment.

The mantra of grips and pressures probably achieves the same, but my guess is that this could also be the cause of some small sight adjustment compensation that, in fact, eliminates any biases the mantra imposes.

To me, the simplest approach is best; and if the manta works, that's good, and if it's not needed, that may be even better.

This is also a reason why I avoid setups which generate major reacoil. For me, precision shooting is more like surgically deriving an outcome, rather than like forging one.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Recoil Effects

I agree with everything you said, only enough grip to control the rifle through recoil will produce the best results.

 

[Shortdraw]

Re: Recoil Effects

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In essence, imagine that when we hold an aimpoint, the barrel is never pointed exactly where it needs to be to put the bullet onto that aimpoint. Rather, it points to the starting pont in the recoil cycle that eventually results in the proper bore orientation at the time the bullet emerges from the uzzle.

</div></div>
Great description, well said.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Recoil Effects

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In essence, imagine that when we hold an aimpoint, the barrel is never pointed exactly where it needs to be to put the bullet onto that aimpoint. Rather, it points to the starting pont in the recoil cycle that eventually results in the proper bore orientation at the time the bullet emerges from the uzzle.

</div></div>
Great description, well said. </div></div>

I don't believe Greg's explanation is wrong; but, I'm wondering about it, since my dry firing and live fire calls, "right-in-there" yield the expected result, shots right-in-there. Shooting live, dry, live, dry..a recent 50 minute exercise produced a dry fire call overlay which superimposed directly over my strikes. What is certain is whatever movement of the rifle it's consistent, and appears to place the line of bore in the same relationship with me and the ground from before the trigger is pulled to after the bullet has cleared the bore.

My observation and inference does not contribute to me shooting better than before my discovery, since, as it appears, by following-through, whatever the need for it,I can get the job done. Nevertheless,I'm still curious about it all, thinking perhaps the movement is both linear and minuscule, as well as completely transferred and absorbed by my body.

 

[Headgear]

Re: Recoil Effects

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with everything you said, only enough grip to control the rifle through recoil will produce the best results.</div></div>

I also agree. I've read and tried just about every grip pressure, pulling the rifle back into the pocket and and cheek pressure down on the comb and nothing works as well and is more repeatable than getting my NPA and relax. I love Greg's analogy of "just going along for the ride".

The last thing I do before pressing the trigger is to focus quickly on each of the points of pressure that I am putting on the rifle. I guess this could be looked at as a mantra as well but I quickly take note of loading the bipod and then relax it, grip pressure-relax, cheek pressure-relax, entire body-relax. This may seem like a lot but it is quick and the relaxed feel seems to be way more repeatable than trying to gauge different amounts of pressure.

Like I said above, I've read and tried loading the bipod heavy and pulling the butt back into the pocket and more down pressure with the cheek on the comb to help control recoil and it may control recoil but I'll be damned if I can control POI while trying to control recoil through more pressure.

NPA, relax and go along for the ride is what works for me.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Recoil Effects

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Headgear</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with everything you said, only enough grip to control the rifle through recoil will produce the best results.</div></div>



NPA, relax and go along for the ride is what works for me. </div></div>

My mental management is similar: Sight alignment, NPA adjustment, focus on sight, trigger control, and follow-through.

 

[customshooter]

Re: Recoil Effects

On average, the bullet has already left your barrel as the recoil has shifted your gun 1/8 to 1/4 inch under free recoil. Try keeping that in mind as well. under load, say against your cheek and shoulder, the way the recoil rebounds off of ANYTHING for that brief .001 sec is critical and must be maintained...