Advanced Marksmanship recoil managment and adj buttplate?

[ubet]

I just put a 4way adj buttplate on my 5r.I have the buttplate raised above the top of the comb and offset to the outside of the stock. Will being set like this affect the rifle recoiling straight back, so as not to see my impacts? Havent been able to shoot lately and was just curious.

Thanks in advance

 

[ubet]

Re: recoil managment and adj buttplate?

wow, a ton of responses lol, and yes it does affect recoil managment. Guess the best answers are not to ask and figure it out for yourself

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: recoil managment and adj buttplate?

O.K., I'm your Huckleberry. The angle of the butt plate allows the rifle to be squared to the target without muscular effort. With the butt plate raised it can allow for the butt to be placed in the pocket of the shoulder with the comb in a raised position to offer a muscularly relaxed stockweld with the full weight of the head resting upon the stock. The butt in a raised position will also make possible for a lower gun position, while in the prone sling support position, if the shooter has an adjustable handstop, to allow for the non-firing hand to get way out there on the handguard and still be relaxed. Regarding recoil, management is equal to control. The whole idea is to get the angle between bore at rest and bore at bullet exit as consistent as possible by building the position to the same conclusion shot to shot. This requires motor memory skills beyond what most have an interest in mustering as it is as mentally painful as it is physically painful to do for more than just a few shots.

 

[ubet]

Re: recoil managment and adj buttplate?

Thank you for responding sterling. After shooting it, then adjusting and following my shot placement. I noticed that it was a lot tougher to manage and have proper follow through with the buttplate offset to the outside of the stock. But when I centred it straight back and up, the recoil was very consistent, and shot placement was a lot tighter to where I called each shot. With it offset I was getting a lot of horizontal stringing. Is this because recoil management is angular?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: recoil managment and adj buttplate?

You'll discover what adjustments, for the particular position, will allow you to be comfortable/relaxed. Comfort is what it's all about. You should simply adjust the gun to fit you for what's comfortable. A gun that fits will help you to better recognize properly adjusted NPA, muscular relaxation, and bone/artificial support. Remember as the position gets higher off the ground the stock will need to be higher in the shoulder, therefore, one adjustment will not work for every position. You'll come to understand this after adjusting the gun for prone shooting and thereafter attempting to shoot it from the standing position- it will be very uncomfortable, and, it will not accommodate good shooting. Sometimes it's better to just use a "standard" gun and make yourself fit it. Only in the highest levels of HP, or Smallbore competition will the adjustable butt stock be paramount to winning.

 

[ubet]

Re: recoil managment and adj buttplate?

Sterling, Thank you for your input. One thing I have realized, is how much more comfortable and easy it is to get a good NPA and to help with follow through.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: recoil managment and adj buttplate?

There is a still this question of comfort.

Comfortable is what new shooters do everyday when they first go out, especially when put in the context of no formal training.

Comfort comes from practice and repetition, not from simply doing what comes natural. Bad Form comfortably executed is still bad form, poor fundamentals are poor fundamentals whether comfortable or not.

There is no question, a comfortable shooter is a better shooter, but again, that is an element of practice, otherwise the world would be full of great shooters if you simply needed to get comfortable.

Now we shot a short video to address this, because its one thing to be comfortable on a square range under known conditions like a competition. It's another thing to execute this under field conditions.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="853" height="510" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ndc_NVGEt24" frameborder="0"></iframe>

This says it all, but managing recoil is not just about comfort, it's about driving the rifle correctly based on your position, as well it's about proper form, because bad form comfortable is still bad.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: recoil managment and adj buttplate?

All,

Muscular Relaxation (comfort) is just one element of a steady position, the other elements are bone/artificial support, and natural point of aim. Certainly, you can be comfortable and have a poor position, as well as have an uncomfortable position and still have a good position, that's to say, one which will get a good result; yet, for the best results, the position must must be built considering each element. Consistency is the key to getting good consecutive hits. A position built without muscular relaxation (comfort) is one which will be difficult to rebuild consistently for more than a few shots. Also, without comfort, the shooter will be distracted by the discomfort. This is a problem in competition shooting. The big picture there is muscular relaxation (comfort) assures less divergence in the angle between the line of bore at rest and line of bore at bullet. Of course, for some shooting scenarios, or any kind of shooting which does not require zeroing refinement and strings of fire, muscular relaxation may not indeed be essential for a good hit. Nevertheless, to assure the best results, building the position with muscular relaxation (comfort) in mind is a good idea when possible.

LL,

In the earliest of my post's on this thread I was using the word comfort as applied to gun fit. When the gun fits the result is comfort. The purpose of the ajustable butt is, for the most part, about helping the shooter get into a muscular relaxed position.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: recoil managment and adj buttplate?

I think the question comes from describing Muscular Relaxation as "comfort" .. because really it is two different things.

I have seen shooters appear and feel comfortable, yet have the rifle & elbow away from the center of the knee using their muscles to hold it up and not bone support...

As well in the kneeling people will have muscular relaxation in the upper body, using good form, but be uncomfortable sitting on their foot... or in the sitting bringing a support knee up without aid.

Few who shoot supported positions understand that they can remain relaxed and still manage the recoil, so they have adapted to being tense while telling their mind they are comfortable.

Comfort is a state of mind which is why some can withstand positions others find uncomfortable. This is why we practice, to get comfortable using good form when it would normally feel uncomfortable because of lack of practice. You can't interchange having a muscular relaxed state with a comfortable state of mind, simply because it can be contradicted by some shooters as you acknowledged above. It is the same in any physical sport, comfortable is a state of being based on experience.

So, I feel there are ways to muscularly relax your upper body and yet still be uncomfortable to some, while at the same time using muscular tension to be comfortable to others.

Telling someone to simply get comfortable alone doesn't automatically lead to positive results.

 

[ubet]

Re: recoil managment and adj buttplate?

LL, thanks for that. When I posted about being comfortable, it was in refernce to trying to get the stock to fit me not me fit the stock, is this the wrong approach?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: recoil managment and adj buttplate?

No, I believe you should adjust the rifle to fit the shooter.

Too often we find shooters who will strain with eye relief because they feel where the scope was first attached is where it stays. Because of a change or even a new understanding on where something should be, they still refuse to move it. So adjusting a rifle to fit you properly is a great thing to do... knowing where that adjustment should fall can be a function of comfort, but is also about form and position, being offset to recoil, especially with a bipod is in my opinion bad form... where with a sling and what can be considered "free recoil" it is less of an issue, because the whole body is moving with the recoil. For the tactical shooter, in supported positions, or with a bipod, recoil needs to be in line so the body will absorb the recoil and they shooter will remain on target, otherwise they risk losing their sight picture.

Watch that video and index the muzzle of the 300WM AW on the wall and see exactly how little the rifle moves even in what can be consider the most unstable of positions, the standing, using an unsecured ladder with a 1/2" rung. This is due to the use proper form and technique. Recoil exploits angles, especially where the rifle contacts the body, combine that with improper trigger control and you have the cause of rifle hop, or at the very least the lose of sight picture where none should happen. Does it matter in Service rifle shooting -- of course not, you have a stationary target, that will be plotted and scored for you, as well you have time to rebuild the position taking each shot on its own... if you're responsible for eliminating a threat, that might be moving, at an angle, where the target is at an unknown distance, the follow up shot can be more important than the initial shot, because there are more factors than simply the execution of the fundamentals, the rifle is no longer zeroed to the target range, elements, like NPA may be compromised in the event of a moving target, so knowing where that round impacts is more important than know where the sights "were" when the shot broke, because range maybe wrong from the start, the target speed maybe unknown, the wind -- no flags -- and the problem may need to be solved according to their timeline and not yours. That is tactical shooting. see the reticle throughout the firing task is key and knowing where the sights "are" is important so you can correct the shot as it is happening, so the next effective round is heading downrange in about 2 to 3 seconds after the first. If you don't have a spotter, and you can't see the results, there is no way to correct. That is recoil management with a tactical rifle.

 

[ubet]

Re: recoil managment and adj buttplate?

I watched the video a couple of times, was amazed by how Jacobs body absorbed the recoil, the rifle looked as if it didnt move.

On your mention of improper trigger control, prone with bipod I try not to let my firing hand touch much of the stock, only the trigger. I know that sometimes I can tense my hand up and dont want to be pulling shots, that and for some reason it just seems like my body is taking the recoil and I will not be trying to fight it with my hand. Is this bad form or using a crutch and not implementing the fundamentals? I have noticed that I can not see bullet holes appear @100yds, but I can see the dirt being impacted beyond the target. Can usually see bullet strike, on steel, passed that though.

Thanks for taking the time to answer!

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: recoil managment and adj buttplate?

Specifically, about the adjustable butt, it does many things. It can help get proper eye relief without goose necking or turtle necking, which would undermine the position; and, it can complement adjustments you have made to the adjustable comb, if you have one. But, most importantly, the butt plate can be canted to allow for the rifle to be laid square or level to the target, without being forced by muscle into that condition. That's to say, you can use the adjustable butt to have a muscularly relaxed (comfortable) position.

Now, about the word comfort, in target shooting it's defined as being relaxed. Relaxed means to have minimized muscular tension. This is important since any muscle tension is difficult, even with motor memory, to maintain through follow through, or to repeat from shot to shot. When you have muscle tension there is movement since muscle cannot transfer the stability of the ground into the position. Even minuscule movement can be a problem, shot to shot, or with strings of fire as the error it inspires is angular, its effect increasing with distance. Of course, with any tension, wobble will be present too, although this is not much of a problem in that wobble error is not angular.

Most new shooters complain that they cannot get comfortable, or when they are comfortable, the position cannot be adjusted for the desired target/sight relationship. For sure, there is physical, as well as mental pain learning how to shoot. Some folks do not have the discipline, interest, or willingness to work through the pain, that's to say, they don't practice because they don't believe better results will come from the practice, or they just really don't care to do the work necessary to become an extraordinary shooter. Those that are motivated, however, will, through the mental and physical pain, at some point, get the accolades, certifications, distinctions, recognitions and other rewards that they seek.