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Fieldcraft Recoil off bipod
- Thread starter m1a convert
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Re: Recoil off bipod
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got sort of quiet in here... </div></div>
I thought it might.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got sort of quiet in here... </div></div>
I thought it might.
Re: Recoil off bipod
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullets don't torque the rifles . . .</div></div>
This is incorrect.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bipods don't hop and everything you are seeing is caused by you, the shooter...</div></div>
This is correct.
The bullet starts sitting still (duh). As it accelerates forward there is a reactionary push backward that we all know and love.
But it also accelerates rotationally. As it gets pushed down the barrel it goes from not spinning to spinning really fast. The bullet has a rotational inertia and doesn't want to spin, but is forced to. Its rotational reaction (torque) is applied to the lands of the rifling equally as it gets pushed down the barrel. There is in fact a significant torque applied to the rifle by the accelerating bullet. This is just basic physics.
I have measured the effect on my own rifles using high-speed accelerometers. If memory serves (this was several years ago) I measured acceleration on the side of the stock at sub-millisecond timescales.
So, the effect is real, is strong, and I have measured it. I can dig around and see if I can find the old data if anyone wants to see it.
Now, there are numerous things you can do to control the rifle's rotational motion. As Lowlight points out and the video shows, the effect can even be visibly eliminated. But you do have to do your job and handle your rifle correctly or the rifle will do undesirable things, like jump to the left. Hence the need for quality training.
Scott
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullets don't torque the rifles . . .</div></div>
This is incorrect.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bipods don't hop and everything you are seeing is caused by you, the shooter...</div></div>
This is correct.
The bullet starts sitting still (duh). As it accelerates forward there is a reactionary push backward that we all know and love.
But it also accelerates rotationally. As it gets pushed down the barrel it goes from not spinning to spinning really fast. The bullet has a rotational inertia and doesn't want to spin, but is forced to. Its rotational reaction (torque) is applied to the lands of the rifling equally as it gets pushed down the barrel. There is in fact a significant torque applied to the rifle by the accelerating bullet. This is just basic physics.
I have measured the effect on my own rifles using high-speed accelerometers. If memory serves (this was several years ago) I measured acceleration on the side of the stock at sub-millisecond timescales.
So, the effect is real, is strong, and I have measured it. I can dig around and see if I can find the old data if anyone wants to see it.
Now, there are numerous things you can do to control the rifle's rotational motion. As Lowlight points out and the video shows, the effect can even be visibly eliminated. But you do have to do your job and handle your rifle correctly or the rifle will do undesirable things, like jump to the left. Hence the need for quality training.
Scott
Re: Recoil off bipod
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beezaur</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullets don't torque the rifles . . .</div></div>
This is incorrect.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bipods don't hop and everything you are seeing is caused by you, the shooter...</div></div>
This is correct.
The bullet starts sitting still (duh). As it accelerates forward there is a reactionary push backward that we all know and love.
But it also accelerates rotationally. As it gets pushed down the barrel it goes from not spinning to spinning really fast. The bullet has a rotational inertia and doesn't want to spin, but is forced to. Its rotational reaction (torque) is applied to the lands of the rifling equally as it gets pushed down the barrel. There is in fact a significant torque applied to the rifle by the accelerating bullet. This is just basic physics.
I have measured the effect on my own rifles using high-speed accelerometers. If memory serves (this was several years ago) I measured acceleration on the side of the stock at sub-millisecond timescales.
So, the effect is real, is strong, and I have measured it. I can dig around and see if I can find the old data if anyone wants to see it.
Now, there are numerous things you can do to control the rifle's rotational motion. As Lowlight points out and the video shows, the effect can even be visibly eliminated. But you do have to do your job and handle your rifle correctly or the rifle will do undesirable things, like jump to the left. Hence the need for quality training.
Scott</div></div>
I won't argue with about much, except the significant part, and I will follow that up with a question.
The lands goes 360 degrees around the barrel, so wouldn't the torque be in all directions at once, as well doesn't the fact that copper and lead are softer than Stainless Steel matter so isn't some of the torque transferred too the bullet which is why they are warped, more so than externally ?
Just wondering, cause left alone they don't seem to flip over to the right.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beezaur</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullets don't torque the rifles . . .</div></div>
This is incorrect.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bipods don't hop and everything you are seeing is caused by you, the shooter...</div></div>
This is correct.
The bullet starts sitting still (duh). As it accelerates forward there is a reactionary push backward that we all know and love.
But it also accelerates rotationally. As it gets pushed down the barrel it goes from not spinning to spinning really fast. The bullet has a rotational inertia and doesn't want to spin, but is forced to. Its rotational reaction (torque) is applied to the lands of the rifling equally as it gets pushed down the barrel. There is in fact a significant torque applied to the rifle by the accelerating bullet. This is just basic physics.
I have measured the effect on my own rifles using high-speed accelerometers. If memory serves (this was several years ago) I measured acceleration on the side of the stock at sub-millisecond timescales.
So, the effect is real, is strong, and I have measured it. I can dig around and see if I can find the old data if anyone wants to see it.
Now, there are numerous things you can do to control the rifle's rotational motion. As Lowlight points out and the video shows, the effect can even be visibly eliminated. But you do have to do your job and handle your rifle correctly or the rifle will do undesirable things, like jump to the left. Hence the need for quality training.
Scott</div></div>
I won't argue with about much, except the significant part, and I will follow that up with a question.
The lands goes 360 degrees around the barrel, so wouldn't the torque be in all directions at once, as well doesn't the fact that copper and lead are softer than Stainless Steel matter so isn't some of the torque transferred too the bullet which is why they are warped, more so than externally ?
Just wondering, cause left alone they don't seem to flip over to the right.
Re: Recoil off bipod
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The lands goes 360 degrees around the barrel, so wouldn't the torque be in all directions at once. . . .
Just wondering, cause left alone they don't seem to flip over to the right. </div></div>
The torque is applied to all lands equally.
If you had just a barrel and breech mounted in bearings, but braced against rearward movement, the barrel would just spin about the bore axis when a shot is taken.
Adding the mass of a scope and stock messes up the resulting axis of spin. A torque is applied to the barrel, but the rifle ends up spinning the opposite way about a slightly different axis.
Now add a bipod and you have the opportunity for the rifle to hit solid resistance to rotating. If the bipod can swivel, then you can get a jump to the left (LH rifling would cause a jump the other way). A rigid bipod (or one locked down with a Pod-Lock) tends not to.
Or, if you use proper shooting technique, you can get the mass and support of your body to counteract these in just the right way. Then you don't need to rely as much on things like rigid bipods or wide, flat forends.
It is the same general thing as shooting a .45 right-handed versus left-handed. I aways have a hard time keeping the pistol from twisting when I shoot left-handed, but it comes straight up right-handed. The difference is support (which, at the end of the day, is a form issue.)
Scott
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The lands goes 360 degrees around the barrel, so wouldn't the torque be in all directions at once. . . .
Just wondering, cause left alone they don't seem to flip over to the right. </div></div>
The torque is applied to all lands equally.
If you had just a barrel and breech mounted in bearings, but braced against rearward movement, the barrel would just spin about the bore axis when a shot is taken.
Adding the mass of a scope and stock messes up the resulting axis of spin. A torque is applied to the barrel, but the rifle ends up spinning the opposite way about a slightly different axis.
Now add a bipod and you have the opportunity for the rifle to hit solid resistance to rotating. If the bipod can swivel, then you can get a jump to the left (LH rifling would cause a jump the other way). A rigid bipod (or one locked down with a Pod-Lock) tends not to.
Or, if you use proper shooting technique, you can get the mass and support of your body to counteract these in just the right way. Then you don't need to rely as much on things like rigid bipods or wide, flat forends.
It is the same general thing as shooting a .45 right-handed versus left-handed. I aways have a hard time keeping the pistol from twisting when I shoot left-handed, but it comes straight up right-handed. The difference is support (which, at the end of the day, is a form issue.)
Scott
Re: Recoil off bipod
okay, I have it now a pistol recoils different from right to left handed, i never knew this and it answers all my questions I would have.
I suppose when a smith torques a barrel in the action, it actually tightens.
thanks anyway,
okay, I have it now a pistol recoils different from right to left handed, i never knew this and it answers all my questions I would have.
I suppose when a smith torques a barrel in the action, it actually tightens.
thanks anyway,
Re: Recoil off bipod
ROTFLOL,
Fuckin' Frank!!!
If it bounces YOU are doing something wrong. What that may be is subject to rumor and conjecture but the error remains the same.
Cheers,
Doc
ROTFLOL,
Fuckin' Frank!!!
If it bounces YOU are doing something wrong. What that may be is subject to rumor and conjecture but the error remains the same.
Cheers,
Doc
Re: Recoil off bipod
My experience is this before my basic class at Rifles Only the rifle would hop to the left and I would end up looking at my neighbors target. At the end of the class the gun recoiled straight back and I could call my shots at distance. At 100 it appeared as if the hole just appeared in the target. But at distance I was able to see impact and fix the wind error right now.
It helped a ton being all fucked up and Frank Jacob and Stan watching me like a hawk, helping endlessly to get me straightened out.
The technique they teach works. There are alot better shooters on here than me that vouch for it.
Respectfully,
Jack
My experience is this before my basic class at Rifles Only the rifle would hop to the left and I would end up looking at my neighbors target. At the end of the class the gun recoiled straight back and I could call my shots at distance. At 100 it appeared as if the hole just appeared in the target. But at distance I was able to see impact and fix the wind error right now.
It helped a ton being all fucked up and Frank Jacob and Stan watching me like a hawk, helping endlessly to get me straightened out.
The technique they teach works. There are alot better shooters on here than me that vouch for it.
Respectfully,
Jack
Re: Recoil off bipod
I have no problem believing that the spinning of the bullet causes the rifle to try and twist somewhat. In fact, I'm sure it does. It happens with everything else, so why not bullets and rifles? It's basic physics that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If that bullet is going to spin clockwise, then SOMETHING is going to have to at least make an effort to move counterclockwise. In airplanes the spinning of the prop causes the entire plane to want to twist slightly in the opposite direction - it's called p-factor, and the pilot must correct for it. In helicopters the rotation of the rotor causes the fuselage underneath it to spin in the opposite direction. This is part of why the tail rotor is necessary, and why the pilot has to apply some right pedal pretty much all the time.
Now, as LL preaches constantly and as the video and my own experience prove, the effect in a rifle is easily nullified if the idiot looking through the scope does his part correctly.
I have no problem believing that the spinning of the bullet causes the rifle to try and twist somewhat. In fact, I'm sure it does. It happens with everything else, so why not bullets and rifles? It's basic physics that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If that bullet is going to spin clockwise, then SOMETHING is going to have to at least make an effort to move counterclockwise. In airplanes the spinning of the prop causes the entire plane to want to twist slightly in the opposite direction - it's called p-factor, and the pilot must correct for it. In helicopters the rotation of the rotor causes the fuselage underneath it to spin in the opposite direction. This is part of why the tail rotor is necessary, and why the pilot has to apply some right pedal pretty much all the time.
Now, as LL preaches constantly and as the video and my own experience prove, the effect in a rifle is easily nullified if the idiot looking through the scope does his part correctly.
Re: Recoil off bipod
We use right hand twist because we use "righty tighty" threads. If we used left hand twist in out "righty tighty" barreled actions our tubes would eventually unscrew themselves.
Like on large trucks, the right hand wheels have left hand threaded lug nuts, because eventually Newton's third law of motion catches up with things.
We use right hand twist because we use "righty tighty" threads. If we used left hand twist in out "righty tighty" barreled actions our tubes would eventually unscrew themselves.
Like on large trucks, the right hand wheels have left hand threaded lug nuts, because eventually Newton's third law of motion catches up with things.
Re: Recoil off bipod
Actually if we screw the barrel on to the action to the right, and the twist goes in the opposite direction to the right shouldn't it be unscrewing ?
Or have I gone dyslexic ?
Actually if we screw the barrel on to the action to the right, and the twist goes in the opposite direction to the right shouldn't it be unscrewing ?
Or have I gone dyslexic ?
Re: Recoil off bipod
If your looking from the action end of your rifle to the end of the barrel, you'd be screwing it on counterclockwise. The rifling spins the bullet clockwise putting the opposite force on the barrel making it tighter... theoretically.
My bipod use to hop all over shit, I've been practicing with the instructive tutorials, it does it way less now. And on the occasional good day, not at all. The barrel must be torquing just right on those days...
If your looking from the action end of your rifle to the end of the barrel, you'd be screwing it on counterclockwise. The rifling spins the bullet clockwise putting the opposite force on the barrel making it tighter... theoretically.
My bipod use to hop all over shit, I've been practicing with the instructive tutorials, it does it way less now. And on the occasional good day, not at all. The barrel must be torquing just right on those days...
Re: Recoil off bipod
Frank,
Excellent demonstration of how it's done!
Appreciate the Video!
I think you may have sold me on a training subscription just so I can see more.
Frank,
Excellent demonstration of how it's done!
Appreciate the Video!
I think you may have sold me on a training subscription just so I can see more.
Re: Recoil off bipod
Cool.
Frank's point has always been valid. He deals with the causes, my approach is best viewed as a band-aid.
One of the key reasons I do it my way is because illness and injury interferes with my doing it 'the right' way. Serially, if I had my druthers, I'd be using neither the bipod nor the rest, but slinging up. It's not an especially comfy way to spend an afternoon in overwatch, but for my purposes, when I could still do it, it was my most effective method of shooting support.
Personally; I believe that a proper foundational marksmanship instruction begins with sling-supported positional shooting, exclusively using iron sights. Only when that has been mastered should one expand to use other supports and sights. If I could still do that, I'd be a happier guy.
Greg
Cool.
Frank's point has always been valid. He deals with the causes, my approach is best viewed as a band-aid.
One of the key reasons I do it my way is because illness and injury interferes with my doing it 'the right' way. Serially, if I had my druthers, I'd be using neither the bipod nor the rest, but slinging up. It's not an especially comfy way to spend an afternoon in overwatch, but for my purposes, when I could still do it, it was my most effective method of shooting support.
Personally; I believe that a proper foundational marksmanship instruction begins with sling-supported positional shooting, exclusively using iron sights. Only when that has been mastered should one expand to use other supports and sights. If I could still do that, I'd be a happier guy.
Greg
Re: Recoil off bipod
The rotational effect is similiar to a helicopter - but in the R/C world things are less than perfect so we use a Gyro to compensate for that.
A blackhawk uses a tail rotor - offset the torque by the engine...
That said, easy solution - don't use a bipod- learn to shoot with a sling.
The rotational effect is similiar to a helicopter - but in the R/C world things are less than perfect so we use a Gyro to compensate for that.
A blackhawk uses a tail rotor - offset the torque by the engine...
That said, easy solution - don't use a bipod- learn to shoot with a sling.
Re: Recoil off bipod
The ranges I shoot at must have the new Anti-Torque Flux Capacitors installed under the bench.... Can’t get mine to do the twist thang. I will keep trying.
The ranges I shoot at must have the new Anti-Torque Flux Capacitors installed under the bench.... Can’t get mine to do the twist thang. I will keep trying.
Re: Recoil off bipod
This whole thread cracks me up in several ways.
Advocating the use of Pod Claws, Cleats, SOPMOD, and or other bipods to help in controlling rifle recoil multiplied by an improper shooting position equalling "Hop" is one way of a shooter to enjoy the art of shooting.
Shooting fundamentals are and always should be learned by those of us wishing to better ourselves.
Get behind the rifle, square up and fire away.
But I do take exception when a shooting product that has been designed to offer seveal benefits to the shooting community is shat upon due to improper shooting fundamentals.
Do my and some other manufacturers products help in controlling rifle recoil management....yes.
Why does thou shat upon them.
This whole thread cracks me up in several ways.
Advocating the use of Pod Claws, Cleats, SOPMOD, and or other bipods to help in controlling rifle recoil multiplied by an improper shooting position equalling "Hop" is one way of a shooter to enjoy the art of shooting.
Shooting fundamentals are and always should be learned by those of us wishing to better ourselves.
Get behind the rifle, square up and fire away.
But I do take exception when a shooting product that has been designed to offer seveal benefits to the shooting community is shat upon due to improper shooting fundamentals.
Do my and some other manufacturers products help in controlling rifle recoil management....yes.
Why does thou shat upon them.
Re: Recoil off bipod
I couldn't take it any more Frank. This post has finally pushed me over the edge into the paid section. The video above is "proof in the pudding" for me. Now maybe I can learn some damn form and break these bad shooting habits.
I couldn't take it any more Frank. This post has finally pushed me over the edge into the paid section. The video above is "proof in the pudding" for me. Now maybe I can learn some damn form and break these bad shooting habits.
Re: Recoil off bipod
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cheese</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This whole thread cracks me up in several ways.
Advocating the use of Pod Claws, Cleats, SOPMOD, and or other bipods to help in controlling rifle recoil multiplied by an improper shooting position equalling "Hop" is one way of a shooter to enjoy the art of shooting.
Shooting fundamentals are and always should be learned by those of us wishing to better ourselves.
Get behind the rifle, square up and fire away.
</div></div>
Amen.
I will admit, while I advocate shooting with a sling, I use a glove between my sling and rifle...I'm guilty..
Last time I did the 1k shoot - I beat guys using bipods - how is that possible? Practice practice practice...
I shoot with a bipod for zero testing and whatnot but regardless of WHAT you shoot with - NONE of us are perfect - when I start F'ing up - I call in a coach - have someone WATCH me and show me what I'm doing wrong...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cheese</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This whole thread cracks me up in several ways.
Advocating the use of Pod Claws, Cleats, SOPMOD, and or other bipods to help in controlling rifle recoil multiplied by an improper shooting position equalling "Hop" is one way of a shooter to enjoy the art of shooting.
Shooting fundamentals are and always should be learned by those of us wishing to better ourselves.
Get behind the rifle, square up and fire away.
</div></div>
Amen.
I will admit, while I advocate shooting with a sling, I use a glove between my sling and rifle...I'm guilty..
Last time I did the 1k shoot - I beat guys using bipods - how is that possible? Practice practice practice...
I shoot with a bipod for zero testing and whatnot but regardless of WHAT you shoot with - NONE of us are perfect - when I start F'ing up - I call in a coach - have someone WATCH me and show me what I'm doing wrong...
Re: Recoil off bipod
I'm being polite until I get an answer...
not too sure they want me removing my Rose colored glasses.
I'm being polite until I get an answer...
Re: Recoil off bipod
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm being polite until I get an answer...
not too sure they want me removing my Rose colored glasses. </div></div>
Frank didn't mean to offend anyone including you.
That isn't my way of doing business.
Just trying to stand up for my products is all.
Bottom line, Claws Spikes Ski footings whatever the case may be....Learn proper shooting position and technique. That fellow shooters is the most important thing of all. Not the accessory.
Then practice, practice, practice.
Sorry for the interruption.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm being polite until I get an answer...
Frank didn't mean to offend anyone including you.
That isn't my way of doing business.
Just trying to stand up for my products is all.
Bottom line, Claws Spikes Ski footings whatever the case may be....Learn proper shooting position and technique. That fellow shooters is the most important thing of all. Not the accessory.
Then practice, practice, practice.
Sorry for the interruption.
Re: Recoil off bipod
Being the newbie that I am here, my opinion may be worth half a neutron, but here it goes...
Won't claws/spikes/whatever help you load your bipod on certain surfaces? I've had the bipod skitter forward when placing forward pressure on it on some surfaces. I'm not digging my toes in, but simply raising my upper body putting the stock to shoulder and dropping down into my shooting position. Sometimes the surface doesn't offer enough friction to allow me to load the bipod.
If I'm not catching something from the video lessons, perhaps a bigger stick to the head is required...
Being the newbie that I am here, my opinion may be worth half a neutron, but here it goes...
Won't claws/spikes/whatever help you load your bipod on certain surfaces? I've had the bipod skitter forward when placing forward pressure on it on some surfaces. I'm not digging my toes in, but simply raising my upper body putting the stock to shoulder and dropping down into my shooting position. Sometimes the surface doesn't offer enough friction to allow me to load the bipod.
If I'm not catching something from the video lessons, perhaps a bigger stick to the head is required...
Re: Recoil off bipod
So should we assume that a cannon in the 100mm or more should just about spin on its axis when fired?
Frank in my thinking you are not dyslexic. The firing should loosen the barrel
So should we assume that a cannon in the 100mm or more should just about spin on its axis when fired?
Frank in my thinking you are not dyslexic. The firing should loosen the barrel
Re: Recoil off bipod
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually if we screw the barrel on to the action to the right, and the twist goes in the opposite direction to the right shouldn't it be unscrewing ?
Or have I gone dyslexic ? </div></div>
From the rear of the rifle the tube screws in counterclockwise-bullet goes clockwise, but really wants to go straight so it pushes againts the rifling that gets pushed counterclockwise, thus tightening the tube.
The whole topic has gone all sorts of crazy!!
Bipod hop results from the shooter not controlling the recoil's effects, period. Products like PodClaws help the shooter to load the bipod properly on a variety of surfaces. If marksmanship fundamentals aren't applied, no type of gear is going to make the shot correctly for you.
You give the kids books, and even a donkey to ride to school, and what do they do??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually if we screw the barrel on to the action to the right, and the twist goes in the opposite direction to the right shouldn't it be unscrewing ?
Or have I gone dyslexic ? </div></div>
From the rear of the rifle the tube screws in counterclockwise-bullet goes clockwise, but really wants to go straight so it pushes againts the rifling that gets pushed counterclockwise, thus tightening the tube.
The whole topic has gone all sorts of crazy!!
Bipod hop results from the shooter not controlling the recoil's effects, period. Products like PodClaws help the shooter to load the bipod properly on a variety of surfaces. If marksmanship fundamentals aren't applied, no type of gear is going to make the shot correctly for you.
You give the kids books, and even a donkey to ride to school, and what do they do??
Re: Recoil off bipod
Sorbr is right, it threads from the back I was ass backwards I actually said it correctly earlier in the post... he is right. It would tighten.
Sorbr is right, it threads from the back I was ass backwards I actually said it correctly earlier in the post... he is right. It would tighten.
Re: Recoil off bipod
I always loosen nuts if I'm wrenching from the wrong side-I think more do it than like to admit!
Has anyone else noticed that the original poster is about the only member with only one post in this thread-his question?
To his question, I believe his problem is one that can be overcome with a change in fundamentals, primarily position and properly loading the bipod.
I always loosen nuts if I'm wrenching from the wrong side-I think more do it than like to admit!
Has anyone else noticed that the original poster is about the only member with only one post in this thread-his question?
To his question, I believe his problem is one that can be overcome with a change in fundamentals, primarily position and properly loading the bipod.
Re: Recoil off bipod
So much for self analysis during the shooting process. Guess some just need to be showed. One of these days I really need to get my ass to a real class on LRP shooting so I can see how screwed up I really am
So much for self analysis during the shooting process. Guess some just need to be showed. One of these days I really need to get my ass to a real class on LRP shooting so I can see how screwed up I really am
Re: Recoil off bipod
It's never what you expect. It's usually the stuff you thought you had down pat. Most mistakes are well practiced mistakes, and most solutions are already known, but the subject never thinks it really applies to them.
I'm makin' a list, an' checkin' it twice..., is not just a Christmas ditty...
It's never what you expect. It's usually the stuff you thought you had down pat. Most mistakes are well practiced mistakes, and most solutions are already known, but the subject never thinks it really applies to them.
I'm makin' a list, an' checkin' it twice..., is not just a Christmas ditty...
Re: Recoil off bipod
If torque imparted on a rifle by a bullet was so dramatic as to cause any noticeably effect on the rifles position, wouldn't benchrest shooter's rifles be falling off their rests each time they took a shot? And wouldn't they be making crazy fore-ends that curved the opposite direction in order to counter that effect?
I bet if you touched off a rifle on a bipod with no support, just a string pulling the trigger, it will probably just hop straight up and down with a bit of rearward movement. (As long as both legs of the bipod are on even ground, are the same length and the rifle is level.)
I think the bipod hops to one side because people are putting uneven pressures on it. The recoil hops in the direction that is the averaged from the pressure between the two points. Heck, if you preload the bipod I don't see how it can hop at all.
If torque imparted on a rifle by a bullet was so dramatic as to cause any noticeably effect on the rifles position, wouldn't benchrest shooter's rifles be falling off their rests each time they took a shot? And wouldn't they be making crazy fore-ends that curved the opposite direction in order to counter that effect?
I bet if you touched off a rifle on a bipod with no support, just a string pulling the trigger, it will probably just hop straight up and down with a bit of rearward movement. (As long as both legs of the bipod are on even ground, are the same length and the rifle is level.)
I think the bipod hops to one side because people are putting uneven pressures on it. The recoil hops in the direction that is the averaged from the pressure between the two points. Heck, if you preload the bipod I don't see how it can hop at all.
Re: Recoil off bipod
LL Quote
"Bullshit,
point to one line where I said Spindrift, Coriolis or a lot of these other things "Don't Exist"... I haven't said that, I said a lot of these "other things" are shooter induced, and I have said the first two are noise...but do exist. "
In previous post, same thread
"Bullets don't torque the rifles, bipods don't hop and everything you are seeing is caused by you, the shooter... "
Sorry I'm late to your call. "Got sort of quiet in here..."
I have been busy and not able to get on the net enough to answer.
LL Quote
"Bullshit,
point to one line where I said Spindrift, Coriolis or a lot of these other things "Don't Exist"... I haven't said that, I said a lot of these "other things" are shooter induced, and I have said the first two are noise...but do exist. "
In previous post, same thread
"Bullets don't torque the rifles, bipods don't hop and everything you are seeing is caused by you, the shooter... "
Sorry I'm late to your call. "Got sort of quiet in here..."
I have been busy and not able to get on the net enough to answer.
Re: Recoil off bipod
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: montana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL Quote
"Bullshit,
point to one line where I said Spindrift, Coriolis or a lot of these other things "Don't Exist"... I haven't said that, I said a lot of these "other things" are shooter induced, and I have said the first two are noise...but do exist. "
In previous post, same thread
"Bullets don't torque the rifles, bipods don't hop and everything you are seeing is caused by you, the shooter... "
Sorry I'm late to your call. "Got sort of quiet in here..."
I have been busy and not able to get on the net enough to answer.
</div></div>
You're a fool, I never said anything didn't exist you should have gone back to shooting rocks in the field. Or at least stopped off at school and took a reading class.
Bullet have torque on them, but THEY don't torque the rifle, not to a measurable degree that effects anything, clearly as shown, just trying to be right made you look even dumber... never mentioned SD, Coriolis, etc... I just said they are minimal which is being generous. Again, show me how a 15lbs rifle is "torqued" by a 175gr bullet.
What an idiot, in the face of proof that isn't a rock in a field you still want the last word in and par for your course, you're wrong.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: montana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL Quote
"Bullshit,
point to one line where I said Spindrift, Coriolis or a lot of these other things "Don't Exist"... I haven't said that, I said a lot of these "other things" are shooter induced, and I have said the first two are noise...but do exist. "
In previous post, same thread
"Bullets don't torque the rifles, bipods don't hop and everything you are seeing is caused by you, the shooter... "
Sorry I'm late to your call. "Got sort of quiet in here..."
I have been busy and not able to get on the net enough to answer.
</div></div>
You're a fool, I never said anything didn't exist you should have gone back to shooting rocks in the field. Or at least stopped off at school and took a reading class.
Bullet have torque on them, but THEY don't torque the rifle, not to a measurable degree that effects anything, clearly as shown, just trying to be right made you look even dumber... never mentioned SD, Coriolis, etc... I just said they are minimal which is being generous. Again, show me how a 15lbs rifle is "torqued" by a 175gr bullet.
What an idiot, in the face of proof that isn't a rock in a field you still want the last word in and par for your course, you're wrong.
Re: Recoil off bipod
Frank, Skibum and I were shooting today: his SH22 hops left for both of us under recoil, whether or not we are directly behind the gun and regardless of whether we hold hard or push with either shoulder. It hopped left, exactly 4 mils for me and 5 mils for him, each time. Puzzled, we next tried my AE for comparison, and my rifle doesn't move at all and doesn't hop for either of us. What's going on?
Frank, Skibum and I were shooting today: his SH22 hops left for both of us under recoil, whether or not we are directly behind the gun and regardless of whether we hold hard or push with either shoulder. It hopped left, exactly 4 mils for me and 5 mils for him, each time. Puzzled, we next tried my AE for comparison, and my rifle doesn't move at all and doesn't hop for either of us. What's going on?
Re: Recoil off bipod
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank, Skibum and I were shooting today: his SH22 hops left for both of us under recoil, whether or not we are directly behind the gun and regardless of whether we hold hard or push with either shoulder. It hopped left, exactly 4 mils for me and 5 mils for him, each time. Puzzled, we next tried my AE for comparison, and my rifle doesn't move at all and doesn't hop for either of us. What's going on?</div></div>
His barrel torques more than yours.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank, Skibum and I were shooting today: his SH22 hops left for both of us under recoil, whether or not we are directly behind the gun and regardless of whether we hold hard or push with either shoulder. It hopped left, exactly 4 mils for me and 5 mils for him, each time. Puzzled, we next tried my AE for comparison, and my rifle doesn't move at all and doesn't hop for either of us. What's going on?</div></div>
His barrel torques more than yours.
Re: Recoil off bipod
Seriously you might want to look at his bipod, one leg might be higher than the other. Or it could be the A5 stock, something not agreeing with either person's position. I have a Harris that one leg sticks out more than the other, you have to put both a notch up to even them out because they are off.
Seriously you might want to look at his bipod, one leg might be higher than the other. Or it could be the A5 stock, something not agreeing with either person's position. I have a Harris that one leg sticks out more than the other, you have to put both a notch up to even them out because they are off.
Re: Recoil off bipod
AND RG,
Why do you always have to go against the grain, Jim's rifle doesn't have a Cold Bore Deviation, why does yours have to have one.
I bet because you were there the rifle moved left, people who shoot off of rucks never complain about their rifles "torquing" or hopping and there is nothing hold them back.
So, why, why, why...
AND RG,
Why do you always have to go against the grain, Jim's rifle doesn't have a Cold Bore Deviation, why does yours have to have one.
I bet because you were there the rifle moved left, people who shoot off of rucks never complain about their rifles "torquing" or hopping and there is nothing hold them back.
So, why, why, why...
Re: Recoil off bipod
Bullets do cause barrels to torque. Equal and opposite force... Are you really that ignorant? You even admited to it earlier. Not gonna go back and quote it because I feel like I am arguing with my 2 year old now. Last time I told a guy that I almost threw him out of a moving van at 70mph.
I think you are trying to get the bulge on me. Maybe you are because I was pissed last time I called a guy a 2 year old. Well, I don't feel pissed now because I truely believe you know what you are doing while shooting. I do think you eaither miss read or are trying to the bulge on me and smiling while doing it. Enjoy...
I did shoot some rocks today. Finally got out to chrony some loads. Changing powders because of availablity. I also shoot steel and paper. A gopher, rabbit. Shoot from 100 to 1000 yards. Beautiful day, little wind, a slight breeze of only 2-3mph from the left.
Snake season is here so I verified cycling of snake shoot in my 45 and pracitced a bit with the ruger mark2 while waiting for the 308 barrel to cool.
It is getting rare I get to shoot that much anymore, so I truely enjoyed it.
Take Care LL, don't let a little prick hurt so badly next time.
Bullets do cause barrels to torque. Equal and opposite force... Are you really that ignorant? You even admited to it earlier. Not gonna go back and quote it because I feel like I am arguing with my 2 year old now. Last time I told a guy that I almost threw him out of a moving van at 70mph.
I think you are trying to get the bulge on me. Maybe you are because I was pissed last time I called a guy a 2 year old. Well, I don't feel pissed now because I truely believe you know what you are doing while shooting. I do think you eaither miss read or are trying to the bulge on me and smiling while doing it. Enjoy...
I did shoot some rocks today. Finally got out to chrony some loads. Changing powders because of availablity. I also shoot steel and paper. A gopher, rabbit. Shoot from 100 to 1000 yards. Beautiful day, little wind, a slight breeze of only 2-3mph from the left.
Snake season is here so I verified cycling of snake shoot in my 45 and pracitced a bit with the ruger mark2 while waiting for the 308 barrel to cool.
It is getting rare I get to shoot that much anymore, so I truely enjoyed it.
Take Care LL, don't let a little prick hurt so badly next time.
Re: Recoil off bipod
Why? Because. Because I'm a contrarian. Most people I deal with see me coming and just give me the opposite of what I want. All that remains is that I strive for failure.
But the bi-pod legs WERE one notch up, and the rifle did the same thing for each of us. We even coached each other, and eliminated one variable at a time, and it still did it for both of us. The other rifle just didn't move.
Now, where would we both be if I made it easy for you?
Why? Because. Because I'm a contrarian. Most people I deal with see me coming and just give me the opposite of what I want. All that remains is that I strive for failure.
But the bi-pod legs WERE one notch up, and the rifle did the same thing for each of us. We even coached each other, and eliminated one variable at a time, and it still did it for both of us. The other rifle just didn't move.
Now, where would we both be if I made it easy for you?
Re: Recoil off bipod
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why? Because. Because I'm a contrarian. Most people I deal with see me coming and just give me the opposite of what I want. All that remains is that I strive for failure.
But the bi-pod legs WERE one notch up, and the rifle did the same thing for each of us. We even coached each other, and eliminated one variable at a time, and it still did it for both of us. The other rifle just didn't move.
Now, where would we both be if I made it easy for you?
</div></div>
Well we have an issue, because both are the same caliber and barrel length and I don't remember you having anything on the AE like a brake or suppressor, but I could be wrong. So, it can't do it for one and not the other if it was what some are talking about, because it doesn't work only some times.
The notches may not be off that much mine is off only enough to be annoying it just sit right... but it could be something in the stock like I said, its the difference between the A5 and Chassis.
But I can't say, I honestly don't know, it could be the cheek weld as his is fixed and might be of a different height, etc, etc. Heck maybe Rock Barrels "torque" more than Lothar Walther, it was something Mike Rock put into the design, I think it is 5 L&Gs to 6, maybe 1 less has an issue... although being round and the fact it goes in a circle, torque in a circle confuses me a lot, especially late at night.
The issue I have is clearly, one rifle did, the other didn't that presents a real problem, when I see this I have to question the shooters a bit.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why? Because. Because I'm a contrarian. Most people I deal with see me coming and just give me the opposite of what I want. All that remains is that I strive for failure.
But the bi-pod legs WERE one notch up, and the rifle did the same thing for each of us. We even coached each other, and eliminated one variable at a time, and it still did it for both of us. The other rifle just didn't move.
Now, where would we both be if I made it easy for you?
Well we have an issue, because both are the same caliber and barrel length and I don't remember you having anything on the AE like a brake or suppressor, but I could be wrong. So, it can't do it for one and not the other if it was what some are talking about, because it doesn't work only some times.
The notches may not be off that much mine is off only enough to be annoying it just sit right... but it could be something in the stock like I said, its the difference between the A5 and Chassis.
But I can't say, I honestly don't know, it could be the cheek weld as his is fixed and might be of a different height, etc, etc. Heck maybe Rock Barrels "torque" more than Lothar Walther, it was something Mike Rock put into the design, I think it is 5 L&Gs to 6, maybe 1 less has an issue... although being round and the fact it goes in a circle, torque in a circle confuses me a lot, especially late at night.
The issue I have is clearly, one rifle did, the other didn't that presents a real problem, when I see this I have to question the shooters a bit.
Re: Recoil off bipod
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmonaxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If torque imparted on a rifle by a bullet was so dramatic as to cause any noticeably effect on the rifles position, wouldn't benchrest shooter's rifles be falling off their rests each time they took a shot? <span style="font-weight: bold">And wouldn't they be making crazy fore-ends that curved the opposite direction in order to counter that effect?</span>
</div></div>
They do for .30 cal and up BR rifles:
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/200...-caliber-rifles
What we need to realize is that there are all sorts of minutia that can be exprapolated and interpolated as affecting our shooting, and they all do to one extent or another.
A little bullet is spinning hunreds of thousands of RPM's in a space of time measured in milliseconds. Does this impart a physical force on a 15lb rifle? Yes, but not as much as the 55,000psi of expanding gas behind said bullet being popped off in a steel tube
with one exit point.
For practical precision shooting, such as competition, military and LE there are things that weigh more than others on the intended result.
For example: I can't shoot groups at 100yards for the life of me, but I can shoot sub moa groups at 500yds under competition conditions in the wind when the target is only raised for 6 seconds per shot, or put 3 shots in under 45 seconds under a third of a minute at 500 and then again at 600 yards.
Is this the result of knowing what exactly makes my bipod move off target (usually left) when I don't drive the rifle right? No! Its because when I don't think of every little thing and factor and consideration, and I just do my job and do the basics right behind and on the rifle good things happen.
I think you get frustrated Frank, because you train for the end result in a manner that is proven to work day in and day out, and then the peanut gallery sits at home and argues all sorts of little bullshit that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.. You get results and help others to do so as well with methods that are not theoretical, but field proven.
I understand the physics of the little stuff that goes on, but that never helped my shooting nearly as much as learning to get behind my rifle, properly load my bipod, check my NPA, breathe out, pause, squeeze trigger correctly, and follow through.
There's a reason my signature line says what it does.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmonaxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If torque imparted on a rifle by a bullet was so dramatic as to cause any noticeably effect on the rifles position, wouldn't benchrest shooter's rifles be falling off their rests each time they took a shot? <span style="font-weight: bold">And wouldn't they be making crazy fore-ends that curved the opposite direction in order to counter that effect?</span>
</div></div>
They do for .30 cal and up BR rifles:
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/200...-caliber-rifles
What we need to realize is that there are all sorts of minutia that can be exprapolated and interpolated as affecting our shooting, and they all do to one extent or another.
A little bullet is spinning hunreds of thousands of RPM's in a space of time measured in milliseconds. Does this impart a physical force on a 15lb rifle? Yes, but not as much as the 55,000psi of expanding gas behind said bullet being popped off in a steel tube
with one exit point.
For practical precision shooting, such as competition, military and LE there are things that weigh more than others on the intended result.
For example: I can't shoot groups at 100yards for the life of me, but I can shoot sub moa groups at 500yds under competition conditions in the wind when the target is only raised for 6 seconds per shot, or put 3 shots in under 45 seconds under a third of a minute at 500 and then again at 600 yards.
Is this the result of knowing what exactly makes my bipod move off target (usually left) when I don't drive the rifle right? No! Its because when I don't think of every little thing and factor and consideration, and I just do my job and do the basics right behind and on the rifle good things happen.
I think you get frustrated Frank, because you train for the end result in a manner that is proven to work day in and day out, and then the peanut gallery sits at home and argues all sorts of little bullshit that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.. You get results and help others to do so as well with methods that are not theoretical, but field proven.
I understand the physics of the little stuff that goes on, but that never helped my shooting nearly as much as learning to get behind my rifle, properly load my bipod, check my NPA, breathe out, pause, squeeze trigger correctly, and follow through.
There's a reason my signature line says what it does.
Re: Recoil off bipod
What frustrates is, people will latch on to any excuse on the planet and exaggerate the effects of this stuff simply to keep from blaming themselves for shooter errors.
Guys always think they are the best fighters, fuckers, and fire a gun better than anyone else, yet the truth is a lot more real and a lot less impressive.
As soon as the excuse is validated by another it compounds, so if you tell yourself, "This will happen" well That will happen.
its the "Refrigerator Theory", we get down to shoot, we put the first 2 rounds in the same hole and say, "ya this is going on the refrigerator", and then we move, change our position at the subconscious level and bang we throw the next round out. Or we say we're gonna shoot 5 shots and 3 are perfect, better than perfect, and we say the same thing, "going on the wall to show off"' and bang the 4th shot is out and the 5th goes right back into the same hole. The rifle didn't just decide to fuck us, we fucked ourselves mentally. Once you let this shit in your head you're done.
What frustrates is, people will latch on to any excuse on the planet and exaggerate the effects of this stuff simply to keep from blaming themselves for shooter errors.
Guys always think they are the best fighters, fuckers, and fire a gun better than anyone else, yet the truth is a lot more real and a lot less impressive.
As soon as the excuse is validated by another it compounds, so if you tell yourself, "This will happen" well That will happen.
its the "Refrigerator Theory", we get down to shoot, we put the first 2 rounds in the same hole and say, "ya this is going on the refrigerator", and then we move, change our position at the subconscious level and bang we throw the next round out. Or we say we're gonna shoot 5 shots and 3 are perfect, better than perfect, and we say the same thing, "going on the wall to show off"' and bang the 4th shot is out and the 5th goes right back into the same hole. The rifle didn't just decide to fuck us, we fucked ourselves mentally. Once you let this shit in your head you're done.
Re: Recoil off bipod
The rifle didn't just decide to fuck us, we fucked ourselves mentally. Once you let this shit in your head you're done.
That my dear fellow is just Gold. Pure Gold.
The rifle didn't just decide to fuck us, we fucked ourselves mentally. Once you let this shit in your head you're done.
That my dear fellow is just Gold. Pure Gold.
Re: Recoil off bipod
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
They do for .30 cal and up BR rifles:
</div></div>
LOL! *Opens mouth, inserts foot* Well that right there is pretty funny. At least it's only been around for two years...
Still I think it's pretty agreed upon that the effect is minimal and is of little concern in practical shooting.
You know, I've never been able to shoot better than a 24 in trap because of mental fuckage.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
They do for .30 cal and up BR rifles:
</div></div>
LOL! *Opens mouth, inserts foot* Well that right there is pretty funny. At least it's only been around for two years...
Still I think it's pretty agreed upon that the effect is minimal and is of little concern in practical shooting.
You know, I've never been able to shoot better than a 24 in trap because of mental fuckage.
