Recoil Wimp w/Question

P

Phil3

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 13, 2008
402
17
San Ramon, CA
#1
After trying out a friends Remington 5r 308 rifle (no muzzle brake) with scope and bipod, I have to admit, I don't like the kick of the 308. Too much for me, and not conducive to accuracy, even if I could cover my 100 yards groups with a dime (Federal Gold Match). I find an AR15 that weighs almost 13 lbs in 223 no problem. Question is, how about a 260 Remington in a say a 9 - 10 lb rifle without muzzle brake. Where does that fit between the heavy AR15 223 and the 5R 308?

I might get used to the 308 in time, but what good is it, if it not so much fun to shoot. A trip to the range might see me using up 200 rounds of ammo, and can't see doing that on the 308 I sampled.

- Phil
 
#2
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Why not run a brake? Brake on a .308 really tames the recoil. I'm a small guy and even with the correct form it's still a little much shooting a .308 after a couple strings, at least for me. I shot a buddies Surgeon with a SF brake and I love it now.

I haven't shot a 260 but I have read their recoil is pretty light, maybe %30 less?
 
#3
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

I understand brakes can annoy your neighbors at the range, so wanted to avoid that. But, perhaps a brake on a 260 would not annoy others as much as a 308 might.

- Phil
 
#4
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

A brake on a .260 will be just as loud as one on a .308 IMHO. Quick question - What is the maximum distance you need to cover?

I ended up building a 6.5x47 Lapua for the very same reason (actually rotator cuff problems caused me to ditch my .308's). I run mine with a suppressor and the recoil is very managable even with the sore shoulders. That said, most matches around here are shot at under 600 yards. I am presently having a .223 built for those matches. Super fun to shoot, very accurate, no recoil at all, long barrel life, cheap to load for and completely up to the task out to 600 yards. Just my 2 cents worth.
 
#5
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Couple things...

1. Are you a newbie? If so it's totally possible some changes in your form will make an unbraked 308 completely reasonable for you.

2. If you have proper form, but are just recoil sensitive you have many options. If you don't want to be obnoxios with a brake - then a brake is completely out of the question, on any caliber. Brakes are obnoxious and I don't blame anyone for not wanting one. That said, a good brake on nearly ANY caliber will tame the recoil enough for almost anyone to be comfortable. A 308 will be no problem for you - I'm confident of that.

3. Provided you decide on a smaller caliber with no brake, you have serious questions to answer. What do you need the rifle to do? How far must it reach? How much energy does it need at that range?

If you are paper punching only, at ranges less than ~750 yards, I think a 223 will serve you really well. A 223AI will reach a good bit further. Plent of people have had great success at 1000 with 223s, and especially so with 223AIs.

If you need to kill large critters at range though - you'd better learn to deal with either recoil, or lots of muzzle blast.
 
#6
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Couple things...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Are you a newbie? If so it's totally possible some changes in your form will make an unbraked 308 completely reasonable for you.</div></div>

Yes, less than 500 rounds out of a centerfire and 450 or so out of a 223.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2. If you have proper form, but are just recoil sensitive you have many options. If you don't want to be obnoxios with a brake - then a brake is completely out of the question, on any caliber. Brakes are obnoxious and I don't blame anyone for not wanting one. That said, a good brake on nearly ANY caliber will tame the recoil enough for almost anyone to be comfortable. A 308 will be no problem for you - I'm confident of that.</div></div>

I liked the Ben Cooley brake. Where I shoot has concrete paving and a canopy overhead. Reflects sounds pretty well.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3. Provided you decide on a smaller caliber with no brake, you have serious questions to answer. What do you need the rifle to do? How far must it reach? How much energy does it need at that range?

If you are paper punching only, at ranges less than ~750 yards, I think a 223 will serve you really well. A 223AI will reach a good bit further. Plent of people have had great success at 1000 with 223s, and especially so with 223AIs.</div></div>

What I'd like the rifle (and me) to do is shoot out to 600 yards. Since that is not possible where I live and I do not hunt, it would appear the 223 is fine. I have an AR15 in 223, and guess I was just yearning for something different. In the end, I am after tiny groups at the 100 and 200 yards ranges available to me, which as you say, is easily served by a 223. Or a 6mmBR in single shot. Won't be a tactical rifle, but 6mmBR is very accurate I understand...and not too bad of recoil.

- Phil
 
#9
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Make sure your buttstock is tight into your shoulder. If it isn't, you'll be taking an unnecessary beating. If necessary, there are padding devices you could try for very little $$$ (ie. Limbsaver). Once you shoot the .308 a while, you should adjust with no problem. Once you get used to the .308, the recoil of your .223 will seem very light by comparison.
 
#10
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Recoil in a .308 is all about form.

My 130lb wife competes with a non-braked .308. If you keep the rifle snug in your shoulder and stay lined up behind it, it's not going to beat the snot out of you. You may have a little soreness the next day, but it's not like you will be black and blue.

Sure you can add a brake and a ton of weight, but that may be counter to the type of shooting you choose to do.

Proper instruction may get you more mileage than slapping a brake on.
 
#11
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Recoil in a .308 is all about form.


Proper instruction may get you more mileage than slapping a brake on. </div></div>
^^^^^
What he said.

Here's a video of me shooting one of my .308's. Hold it against your shoulder and be dead weight behind it and load the bipod.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WrolbTdmC8
 
#13
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question


Somebody needs to learn how to zero a rifle.
smile.gif


The best shooters are distracted by recoil. How about a 22-250 with an 8 twist and shoot 75 to 90 bullets? The ballistics curve is flatter than 308 by a ways, the recoil is pounds less, and so are the costs of propellant and bullets.

Or 6mm Remington, 9 twist, 105 grain bullets.

Everything shoots better with a brake.
 
#14
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Good suggestions above. Another consideration, besides the ones above, is a .243. You will get much less kick and it's very accurate (especially if you reload).

Note, there's lots of truth to what the members here said about how you might be holding your rifle to manage recoil. The 308 is not a big kicker. Take a look at some of the tutorials and practice. Too loose and it will kick, too tight and it will jump. Firm and easy does it.
 
#15
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

I know that the added muzzle blast from a brake can be distracting as well. When I first added one to my .308 it definitely took some getting used to before I got 100% comfortable behind the rifle again. Unfortunately there is no free lunch.
 
#16
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

If you dont like the recoil, brake it. A 13lb gun is more managable than a 6lb gun. I judge recoil of a gun by what it does to my middle finger, behind the trigger gaurd, if it hurts, tame it!!
Then your 3lb, 3.5lb trigger will become an obstacle, you will have to take it to 6oz, and now you have a shootable gun
 
#17
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After trying out a friends Remington 5r 308 rifle (no muzzle brake) with scope and bipod, I have to admit, I don't like the kick of the 308. Too much for me, and not conducive to accuracy, even if I could cover my 100 yards groups with a dime (Federal Gold Match). I find an AR15 that weighs almost 13 lbs in 223 no problem. Question is, how about a 260 Remington in a say a 9 - 10 lb rifle without muzzle brake. Where does that fit between the heavy AR15 223 and the 5R 308?

I might get used to the 308 in time, but what good is it, if it not so much fun to shoot. A trip to the range might see me using up 200 rounds of ammo, and can't see doing that on the 308 I sampled.

- Phil </div></div>

If you can get past the noise from a muzzle break that would be the best course of action. Ask Brandon from Manners how nice it is to shoot a rifle with a break on it. Or you could up the weight and get a more comfortable stock pad to absorb some of the uncomfortable recoil? There are many options out there. My .300WM was extremely uncomfortable with 210grn VLd's and 73 grns of R22. Put a Sako muzzle break on there and it was nicer than Brandons .308 without a break, add a Mcrees stock and you could shoot that rifle all day long with no issue. This is of course relative. I shoot a Serbu BFG-50 with 750 grn AMAX projos and about 230-240 grns H50BMG if I remember correctly. It is a hammer so after shooting that thing with those loads there isn't too much that feels nicer.
 
#18
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you dont like the recoil, brake it. A 13lb gun is more managable than a 6lb gun. I judge recoil of a gun by what it does to my middle finger, behind the trigger gaurd, if it hurts, tame it!!
Then your 3lb, 3.5lb trigger will become an obstacle, you will have to take it to 6oz, and now you have a shootable gun </div></div>

Huh?

Middle finger hurting....6oz trigger.....right.....
 
#19
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Phil,
Understand that the 5R doesn't have much of a butt pad, I cut mine off and replaced it with a limb saver. While I was in there I also filled the cavity of the stock with lead shot, it really reduced the recoil.
Another option would be to shoot 155 grn bullets instead of 175grn, a little less punch.
With all that being said, I run a brake on my .308 and 7mm08 for a lot of reasons including shoulder issues, as well as I like to spot my own hits.
Enjoy,
SScott
 
#20
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Don't know I'd necessarily call you a wimp, Phil3...
I fucking hate recoil. I find it an almost unnecessary side effect of pulling the trigger, lol.
Muzzle brake on a .22 LR? Sure! Why the fuck not?!
Muzzle brake on a 5.56mm AR? Sure! Why the fuck not?!

Call me a pussy, call me a coward. I could care less. I go to shoot to have fun. Relax my brain solo, or yuk it up with the guys in a group.
I don't go shooting to have my right shoulder get the shit beat out of it. I see people pull their shirts over, show me a huge bruise, and ask "Cool, huh?". My reply? "You're fucking retarded."

My two cents?
BRAKE THAT BITCH, and pick up THIS. Yes it looks like a slip on tire, yes you may get called a fag, but it works amazing.

People want to shoot their shit unbraked with shitty recoil pads and call me a pussy? More power to them...


Jack
 
#21
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

I have never liked the stock on the 5R. To me, a different stock will change the way it recoils or the way you feel the recoil of the rifle. I have shot much heavier recoiling rifles with no brakes and it doesn't wear on me like a 5R would. I chalk it up to the stock.
 
#22
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Recoil is about what force is left over before the force reaches the shooter. The more mass the recoil needs to move, the less force is left to reach the shooter.

A heavier rifle helps, as does mass placed between the rifle and the shoulder; like a sandbag, or a .25lb sack of shotgun reloader's shot. Sacks will require some adjustment of LOP to accomodate their thickness.

Brakes work OK; but I prefer not to be involved in the consequencs of their sound signature. I recently sustained a significant permanent hearing loss due to shooting without proper hearing protection and consequently wear a hearing aid; so I am sensitive to the issues of brakes and noise signatures. My own fault, no question; but the consequences are still unpleasant.

I no longer own any .308's. My preferred LR cartridge is the .260, with some interest in the .280. I have a low tolerance for recoil due to thoracic surgeries. None of my rifles have brakes, and none of my LR projectiles exceed 150gr.

Greg
 
#23
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

I don't care for brakes. But every gun sold should have the quietest, most manageable recoil suppressor available the market without significantly raising prices.
 
#24
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

I have a 5R. I fired 67 rounds through it today and I have minimal shoulder pain just a little tenderness. The rounds I'm shooting are 178gr Amax over 40.9gr of H4895 which I think is almost a max load. I had the same problems with the little 1/8" thick recoil pad. I set out to fix the problem without any additional expense. The thing that helps the most is pre-loading your bipod. The forward pressure and some heavy sandbags were a life (or shoulder) saver for me. My next remedy should be here by the end of the month..... Manners T4A I impatiently await your arrival!! Start with your positioning first then try other chamberings if you are not satisfied.
 
#26
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

I'm a big fan of brakes. The noise sucks a little but you can always double up on the hearing protection. IMO, the blast can cause the same effects as recoil. While it may not physically hammer you, they sure can ring your bell.

200 rounds a day? That's a lot of match ammo. Given your current round count, I would suggest slowing down. Work on fundamentals with each shot. A box or two per range trip is absolutely satisfactory. After that, your concentration will fade and you'll just perpetuate bad habits. Your technique is playing a large part in the issues you are having with recoil.
 
#27
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpl Snafu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">200 rounds a day? That's a lot of match ammo. Given your current round count, I would suggest slowing down. Work on fundamentals with each shot. A box or two per range trip is absolutely satisfactory. After that, your concentration will fade and you'll just perpetuate bad habits. Your technique is playing a large part in the issues you are having with recoil

</div></div>

Well said
smile.gif
 
#28
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Well you're in the same boat as me, Suppressors being Illeigal where we live.

Anyhow. Brakes on a .308 are a bit excessive if you ask me since it isn't that big of a cartridge, but i won't judge you because i don't know you and there may be some reasons for your inablity to deal with recoil (i know more than one shooter with a bung shoulder). On top of that, some ranges won't allow them (at least where i live). So the only way to get over it is to get a good, heavy stock and a good butt pad.

Remember, a wider, larger butt-pad will disperse the recoil over a wider area. So if anything, picking a larger stock with the barrel lower in regard to the barrel will reduce the recoil (Manners T4/5 and GAP, McMillan A4/5 series, AICS).
 
#29
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

As a novice shooter with a .308 myself, here's what worked for me:

Dry firing

Switching stocks (A factory wood Howa stock is beautiful, but unpleasant. My B&C has eliminated any kind of sore shoulder)

Loading the bipod as explained earlier helps quite a bit

Sending the recoil straight back: Every time I take a shot and the cross hairs don't come down near the target, not only do I notice that it wasn't the best POI, but it also wasn't near as comfortable to shoot.

Also, another thing that worked for me is a combination of scooting the scope forward and adding a cheek rest so that I can get behind the rifle comfortably and don't have to "reach" for anything. I can put the recoil pad comfortably into a relaxed shoulder without having to feel like I need to bunch my shoulder forward to get a good weld, and I don't have to work on holding my head up for a good sight picture. Once you develop that sort of position where you can plop down behind the rifle on a firing line, bench, or in the middle of a hay field and it all feels the same you'll wonder how you managed before. It will feel like damnigottascootmyheadback, needtobunchmyshoulderupabitohnowilostmysightpicture, okaygotmysightpicturebacksh*tnowmystockweldislooseBANGdamnit.

-Travis
 
#30
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Good info. The Remington 5R I shot was a friend's, and nothing fit well. I tried to press the stock into my shoulder, but the gun was not lined up where I wanted it, I did not load the bipod, could not get a good grip on the stock (my right thumb was hooked around it with hand not gripping stock), eye relief did not seem right with scope, and believe the stool height was wrong, forcing me to scrunch down. I never could get the stock to fit well into my shoulder. All in all, with comments made here, it is amazing to me I could shoot a group that was covered by a dime.

Will definitely work on technique, to the degree I can find info on that topic.

It was mentioned to slow down a bit after mentioning 200 shots in one day. That was with an AR15, but trying to be as accurate as possible. I expect less with a bolt action, but will make each shot count. No rush here.

I have elected to buy for now, a Howa 223 action, which will not present a recoil issue, but intend on getting something like the 308. The comments here reassure me that I can probably handle it, without brake, if I do all the right things. The rifle will likely be heavyish, which will also help.

- Phil
 
#31
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Good decision. I think you will love your Howa .223.

Another thought, if you go .243 - it too has light recoil (although a little more more than the .223, but less than a .308), and after you burn the .243 barrel (many, many, many targets later) you can re barrel it with a .308 for only the price of a good custom barrel and save money overall.
 
#32
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Tonight, I had the opportunity to shoot a Howa 308 in an after market stock with a Pacmayr Decelerator pad. The owner of the rifle instructed me to get more "behind" the rifle and not cant my head so much. Did that and fired the first shot, and wow..., what a difference. Much less recoil than Remington 5R. Suddenly, the 308 (w/exact same ammo as used in the 5R), was not bad to shoot (no muzzle brake either). I fired 15 rounds out of it, and at 100 yards, was shooting a bit under MOA I think, a fair number of shots overlapping. Hard to see the target due to lighting.

Anyway, 308 is a viable option for me, and I am thrilled with that, as other calibers of interest all recoil less, those being 260 Remington, 6.5 x 47 Lapua, and 6mmBR.

It is clear that form and the right equipment make all the difference, as most of you said. Thanks!

- Phil
 
#34
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

AR10 in 308 is under construction now. Since I already have an AR15 in 223, thought I get a bolt gun for variety and then finish the AR10. I had heard the gas gun hits less, but not sure how much less vs the bolt action.

- Phil
 
#36
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Howa 308 in an after market stock with a Pacmayr Decelerator pad. The owner of the rifle instructed me to get more "behind" the rifle and not cant my head so much. Did that and fired the first shot, and wow..., what a difference.
</div></div>

Sounds like my setup, which I like. Bell and Carlson stock? The decelerator pad is awesome. It will also get the "straight back" concept more apparent. Seems like the amount of movement side-to-side during recoil is amplified with the Pachymayer when you're not set up right behind the gun.

-Travis
 
#38
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

Get a limb saver for the gun and a PAST recoil pad for your shoulder until you
become accustomed to it. I haven't ever seen a shooter that couldn't handle a
308 after shooting for awhile. The important thing is to not induce flinching while
you are acclimating.
 
#40
Re: Recoil Wimp w/Question

I too liked the forend on your stock but not much for the grip. Never tried the Medalist, but am quite sure I would prefer that grip, but I am with you on the not so attractive forend. That let me to Manners, but the price is 2-1/2x the B&C. I know it is a better stock, but more than needed I think for shooting off a bench.

- Phil
 
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